I-Link (Sony's version of Firewire) verses USB 2.0

[Budarow]

Hey peeps,

I'm starting to transfer my home movies from a Mini DV camcorder (Sony HC36) to my PC using a USB 2.0 cable which came with the camera. I've noticed some quality lose of the picture and according to the manual, the optional i-Link cable is supposed to provide the "best" quality transfer.

Is the above true or just marketing to get me to purchase the optional i-Link cable?

Thanks,

Bud

 

[SuperNaruto]

http://www.sonystyle.com/intershoproot/...esOnline/technologies/ilink/index.html

AKA firewire, same thing.. I use firewire and import into adobe.. USB SUCKS big time..

usb drop frames, etc... the ilink is just mini firewire to desktop firewire.. cost like 10 bucks.. dont get sony brand.. they probably jack the price up 100x

http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=250905 heres a fancy one

 

[Bobthelost]

Quality loss? There really, really shouldn't be any difference at all. USB 2 and firewire are just interfaces, unless the DV camera is deliberatly downgrading the quality (this would be beyond comprehension unless you're trying to stream it) then it damned well should look the same.

Firewire 400 will be quicker than USB2. The "quality loss" is probably down to a larger screen for playback.

 

[krotchy]

for some reason, sony didnt bother to implement a true USB stream, making it virtually worthless for capturing. Ilink, aka firewire streams into most capture applications perfectly (Like Premiere)

 

[corkyg]

For large files such as digital imagery, Firewire trumps USB 2.

 

[Budarow]

Thanks peeps...the cable below should do the trick. Correct?

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-RCA-Retractable...4QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


Regards,

Budarow

 

[gramboh]

That is retarded, USB2 should just take longer to do the transfer. Unless you are capturing live, the maximum speed of the interface should not be relevant. Sounds like classic Sony, never going to buy anything from them again.

 

[Paperdoc]

Yeah, the cable you showed on eBay should work. The key point is that it needs the 4-pin connector on one end to plug into the camera, and 6-pin on the other for a standard 1394a port on the computer. As others said, don't pay the premium for Sony's branded iLink cable. The differences betweeen iLink and IEEE 1394a are obscure technical items that have nothing to do with the cables, anyway.

By the way, check you camera's manual for this trick. I have a Sony DCR-TRV460 (digital tape, not mini-DVD), and it says it will "translate" between analogue composite video / stereo signals (on the analogue in/out connector) and digital signals (on the IEEE 1394a connector) all the time. I have not tried it yet, but the manual indicates you could do things like feed a video/audio signal from a VCR into your camera and then connect the IEEE 1394a line from camera to computer and live-feed the signals as DIGITAL information into your computer. The camera is the analogue / digital interface! Supposed to work going back out the other way, too. I don't know whether your camera can do this.

 

[LikeLinus]

Originally posted by: Bobthelost
Quality loss? There really, really shouldn't be any difference at all. USB 2 and firewire are just interfaces, unless the DV camera is deliberatly downgrading the quality (this would be beyond comprehension unless you're trying to stream it) then it damned well should look the same.

Firewire 400 will be quicker than USB2. The "quality loss" is probably down to a larger screen for playback.

I hate Sony as much as the next guy, but there were reasons for creating firewire/ilink. Sony didn't create the USB standard. Firewire includes control signals in its interface design, i.e. you can control the Firewire device with your video software (play, rewind, fast forward, pause, etc). This is HUGE if you do any editing at all. Being able to control a deck or camera from the application is key.

When DV camcorders were being developed in the early 1990s, all the major manufacturers agreed not only to use a common digital tape format but also a means by which information could be sent from the camcorder to other associated devices. FireWire was first developed by Apple Computer Inc and was adopted by the electronics industry under the patent IEEE1394; today, we often refer to a device being "1394-compatible" which, in short, means that it uses FireWire to make connections.

This was BEFORE USB had the bandwidth to stream DV video. The original version of USB could transfer data only at a rate of 12 Mbps, which is not quite enough for full-quality video capture.

USB 2.0 has higher peak transfer rates, but it operates in bursts. The transfer rate isn't consistent and this causes problems when "streaming" video from a DV camcorder. USB is for file transfers, IEEE1394 was designed specifically for digital media streaming/transfer. You have a much larger potential for dropped frames with a USB transfer.

Hi-Speed USB 2.0 uses a "Master-Slave" architecture in which the computer handles all arbitration functions and dictates data flow to, from and between the attached peripherals (adding additional system overhead and resulting in slower data flow control).

Ask anyone who does professional video for a living and they'll tell you Firewire is the only option.

 

[Budarow]

This is GREAT information...I'll go firewire for sure. The Sony software which came with my video camera is convenient since it actually works hand in hand with my PC (e.g., the Sony software actually signals the camera to rewinds the tape prior to movie transfer, etc.).

But the software seems pretty weak as far as transfering the movies to the PC. The options include "streaming" the data, buring a VCD, viewing a movie on the PC, etc., but I haven't figured out how to transfer the contents of the entire tape yet. I guess that's why the transfered movie looks kinda crappy (i.e., I "streamed" the movie from the camera to the PC using USB 2.0).

I also have Pinnacle Studio 9 (limited version) which came with a Sapphire X850XT VIVO video card. I'll give this software a spin and see how it goes.

Sorry to sidetrack on my own thread, but I've got a lot to learn with respect to video and a PCs. One other comment...I'm glad I finally started to transfer my home movies to the PC for editing, digitizing, etc., but watching my only child growing up so fast (he's 8 now...make that 9 cause his birthday was the 21st of October) does bring a tear to the eye. The changes which occur in only 2-3 years is sobering.

Thanks for the info.

Bud

 

[gramboh]

Ah I guesss I should retract my generic Sony flame. I didn't realize you had to stream from DV cameras, I just assumed it was file transfer from one digital source to another.

 

[Budarow]

Originally posted by: gramboh
Ah I guesss I should retract my generic Sony flame. I didn't realize you had to stream from DV cameras, I just assumed it was file transfer from one digital source to another.

Do I "have to" stream from my camera to my PC? I thought I needed to learn more about my camera and the software in order to figure out my options of transferring movies?

 

[gramboh]

I have no idea, I don't have a DV cam and am not familiar with it. I don't understand why you'd have to stream, wouldn't it just store the video on digital tape/hard drive whatever is in the camera and then xfer it as a file? I thought streaming would only be useful if you are trying to edit the content while it's physically on the camera or something.

 

[LikeLinus]

Originally posted by: Budarow

Originally posted by: gramboh
Ah I guesss I should retract my generic Sony flame. I didn't realize you had to stream from DV cameras, I just assumed it was file transfer from one digital source to another.

Do I "have to" stream from my camera to my PC? I thought I needed to learn more about my camera and the software in order to figure out my options of transferring movies?

It's coming from a tape, not a single source file. It's streaming the media as it's reading it from the tape. You are essentially playing, controlling and capturing the content all at the same time with firewire.

 

[Paperdoc]

When you use Firewire, it's not the same as "playing" and "capturing" a video signal. In fact the original data source (on tape or mini-DVD) in the camera already is a digital data file. The firewire connection is a FAST way to copy that digital file from camera to PC (and execute software control over the devices involved, as a bonus!). Now, if you use the software Sony supplies, it does limit what you can do. Basically it assumes you have very few choices, like copying it to a DVD or Video CD. But your Pinacle Studio 9 software should know how to copy all the data from the camera into a HDD file on the PC, ready for editing. That's what Pinacle Studio 9 is for! Then it will give you freedom to move the final version to various places - a DVD, or back to the camera, etc.

 

[gsellis]

Just so there is no doubt, LikeLinus' posts are 100% on target and saved me typing. Encoding/Logging from tape is 1:1 and streaming.

There is an alternative for mini-DV, but it still involves firewire. I only say this for educational purposes. FireStore and a couple others make firewire devices that attach to a camera and capture to HDD. That data can be accessed at the file level quickly. I have a FS-1 which supports 6-pin powered firewire drives. It will power 1 drive (holds two) and will run on a NP-1 battery. It is the size of a toaster oven. The FS-4 is the size of a 5.25" drive (maybe a little smaller) and will even do HDV to drive while mounted to the camera (new technology usually means smaller and this is proof.) Drag and drop, then link in the editor. Saves time and can extend recording times depending on the camera (some can record without tape - but for the most part, still switching tapes.) The advantage is that you save a huge amount of time logging material as tape is 1:1 and a Firestore is drive speed. I got the FireStore so that we could take drives back to a sales booth to allow customers to preview footage. Normally, event folks do this by using BNC SDI connnections with cables to a central switcher and record the streams on tape and disc. They then can preview the disc/tape on a monitor. This is problematic at venues were you cannot run cables and need to run the cameras free standing. Broadcast companies get around this issue with transmitters (like the Steadicam rigs used in the Olympics.)

It all depends on your budget.

 

[Budarow]

Based on the recommendations of several peeps...I tried using a firewire cable to capture the MiniDV taped movies from my Sony HC36 camera onto my PC using Pinacle 9.3 software and it looked a lot "cleaner" than capturing movies using the USB 2.0 cable. Good thing I asked for and received help from you peeps. It would have sucked to capture lots of hours worth of tapes using USB and have to "re-do" it using firewire in order to get the best results.

Thanks again for the assistance

Budarow

 

[LikeLinus]

Originally posted by: gsellis
Just so there is no doubt, LikeLinus' posts are 100% on target and saved me typing. Encoding/Logging from tape is 1:1 and streaming.

There is an alternative for mini-DV, but it still involves firewire. I only say this for educational purposes. FireStore and a couple others make firewire devices that attach to a camera and capture to HDD. That data can be accessed at the file level quickly. I have a FS-1 which supports 6-pin powered firewire drives. It will power 1 drive (holds two) and will run on a NP-1 battery. It is the size of a toaster oven. The FS-4 is the size of a 5.25" drive (maybe a little smaller) and will even do HDV to drive while mounted to the camera (new technology usually means smaller and this is proof.) Drag and drop, then link in the editor. Saves time and can extend recording times depending on the camera (some can record without tape - but for the most part, still switching tapes.) The advantage is that you save a huge amount of time logging material as tape is 1:1 and a Firestore is drive speed. I got the FireStore so that we could take drives back to a sales booth to allow customers to preview footage. Normally, event folks do this by using BNC SDI connnections with cables to a central switcher and record the streams on tape and disc. They then can preview the disc/tape on a monitor. This is problematic at venues were you cannot run cables and need to run the cameras free standing. Broadcast companies get around this issue with transmitters (like the Steadicam rigs used in the Olympics.)

It all depends on your budget.

Actually you can also do this with a good laptop/computer and most NLE programs. I've captured into DVRack and Premiere Pro while recording. Sometimes it's just easier to have a digital copy and not have to convert the master tape later. This works for smaller projects that I know are quick and easy.

Obviously this isn't an option outside of a studio or some home setup, but it does make things easier.

 

[gsellis]

Originally posted by: LikeLinus
Actually you can also do this with a good laptop/computer and most NLE programs. I've captured into DVRack and Premiere Pro while recording. Sometimes it's just easier to have a digital copy and not have to convert the master tape later. This works for smaller projects that I know are quick and easy.

Obviously this isn't an option outside of a studio or some home setup, but it does make things easier.

Enosoft also makes a driver for it. http://www.enosoft.net/