I just realized what JRPGs need

[Beev]

Kefka is widely regarded as one of the best RPG villains ever, along with Sephiroth.

/spoilers (sorry I don't know how to do the blacked-out spoiler text)

Kefka went insane, played everyone for a fool, betrayed his emperor, BLEW UP THE WORLD, and ruled the ruins as a mad god. Now that is a villain.

/end spoilers

The job system in 5 was good (though very grindy...what a waste of time casting Lv5 Death over and over again on the flying worms in the castle basement because they gave more AP than every enemy in the game except for Movers), but talk about lame stories and characters. Exdeath? Really?

You probably think the lead character in 5 is really named Bartz too. /chuckle

/shrug. I hadn't played 5 before the compilation for the PS1 (was it even released stateside before that?). The fact remains though that Kefka didn't try to hide his insanity. So why wasn't he merely overthrown? He wasn't a very big guy. Not like a small revolt of his followers couldn't kill him in an instant before anything major happened. I'll be honest, it's been a loooong time since I've played 4, 5, or 6, so I may be forgetting something.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

/shrug. I hadn't played 5 before the compilation for the PS1 (was it even released stateside before that?). The fact remains though that Kefka didn't try to hide his insanity. So why wasn't he merely overthrown? He wasn't a very big guy. Not like a small revolt of his followers couldn't kill him in an instant before anything major happened. I'll be honest, it's been a loooong time since I've played 4, 5, or 6, so I may be forgetting something.

/spoilers again

Kefka was doing the emperor's dirty work. Once General Leo found out what was really going on, he tried to stop him, but Kefka was too powerful and killed him. By the time the emperor figured out Kefka's betrayal, he had already tapped into the power of the gods and couldn't be stopped. Hence, why Shadow had to trap him while everyone fled the floating island.

Just because Kefka wasn't "a very big guy" who didn't carry a sword that was larger than his entire body doesn't mean he wasn't strong.

/end spoilers

I beat Final Fantasy V before FFVII was even released.

The PSOne compilation was the first time V was officially released stateside (horrible translation and all); that is correct.

 

[u3laptoper]

In America, JRPG very much equals Final Fantasy.

How many people have played Final Fantasy? How many people have played "Shin Megami Tensei"?

I rest my case.

Dragon Quest / Phantasy Star was the original JRPG that drove Japanese youth maniac. There are other notables games , but, unfortunately, were never imported to states due to their unique signature on Japanese customs. Americans will be cultural shocked if they play these games.

You have forgotten the original Japanese Final Fantasy 2/Final Fantasy 3. Final Fantasy 2 was very unique of its time with a secret twist to its story. These days, The FF series is more of a also-runs, it's not special any more.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Dragon Quest / Phantasy Star was the original JRPG that drove Japanese youth maniac. There are other notables games , but, unfortunately, were never imported to states due to their unique signature on Japanese customs. Americans will be cultural shocked if they play these games.

You have forgotten the original Japanese Final Fantasy 2/Final Fantasy 3. Final Fantasy 2 was very unique of its time with a secret twist to its story. These days, The FF series is more of a also-runs, it's not special any more.

I owned Dragon Warrior 1 and 2 (DQ 1 and 2 in Japan) for the NES back in the day. I even had the DW1 Nintendo Power Strategy guide!

Phantasy Star 3 is one of my favorite RPGs of all time. I really wish they would remake it. The generations aspect was awesome. Aron > all. That black cape is rocking.

I know DQ is huge in Japan and was huge before FF, but it is curious to call Phantasy Star the driver of the JRPG. Sega wasn't really that popular in Japan. Japan has been Nintendo and (since the PSOne) Sony land.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_Mega_Drive

"Although the Sega Master System was a success in Europe, and later also Brazil, it failed to ignite much interest in the North American or Japanese markets, which, by the mid-to-late 1980s, were both dominated by Nintendo's large market shares."

"The Mega Drive initially competed against the aging 8-bit NES, over which it had superior graphics and sound. Despite this, the Mega Drive was all but ignored in Japan as soon as it was launched. Some positive coverage came out of magazines Famitsu and Beep!, but Sega shipped only 400,000 units in the first year.[12] In order to sell more units, Sega tried some risky moves, including creating an online banking system and answering machine called the Sega Mega Anser[22] and several peripherals and games.[12] The Mega Drive remained a distant third in Japan behind Nintendo's Super Famicom and NEC's PC Engine throughout the 16-bit era."

To say that Phantasy Star drove the JRPG market in Japan is false. It was all about Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy.

 

[BenSkywalker]

Sounds like what people in this thread are saying is that JRPGs need to be more like DQ, why not just play DragonQuest?

http://www.amazon.com/Dragon-Quest-V...1502022&sr=1-1

$12 and takes care of pretty much every issue I've seen people griping about(aside from the outfits, not a lot of variety there).

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Sounds like what people in this thread are saying is that JRPGs need to be more like DQ, why not just play DragonQuest?

http://www.amazon.com/Dragon-Quest-V...1502022&sr=1-1

$12 and takes care of pretty much every issue I've seen people griping about(aside from the outfits, not a lot of variety there).

Not me...I'm saying they need to be more like Final Fantasy IV and VI.

I didn't care much for Dragon Quest VIII.

 

[Xellos2099]

Well, Chrono Trigger also has main character spiky hair but no one complain about him because he don't talk and back then there was no voice acting. Yes you hear me, people who hated FFVii and onward hate it because of the advance in graphic. If you have pay attention, FF character from I-VI also have some weird hair style but snes doesn't show it, but the official artwork does.

Thanks to increase dvd medium, FFX and onward have voice acting. For the peopel who hated FFX voice, please, blame the voice actor, not the game. Game campany can;t help when they can only find pos voice actor and not everyone is as good as David Hayter from MGS series.

I loved Persona 3. 4 as well as Lost Odyssey as well. One thing in comment, Persona 3 and 4 got their special undub( some people mix the usa game with Japanese voice) and Lost Odyssey got muilt-voice included.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Well, Chrono Trigger also has main character spiky hair but no one complain about him because he don't talk and back then there was no voice acting. Yes you hear me, people who hated FFVii and onward hate it because of the advance in graphic. If you have pay attention, FF character from I-VI also have some weird hair style but snes doesn't show it, but the official artwork does.

Check out Amano's concept art for FFVI, for example. Not a whole lot of spiky-haired emo whiners to be found, FYI.

The MAIN artist for Final Fantasy changed from Yoshitaka Amano (longtime Final Fantasy character designer) to Tetsuya Nomura (as far as I can tell, was only an assistant on VI) between VI and VII. Hmm, that kind of coincides with the rise of the annoying spiky-haired emo whiner protagonist, doesn't it?

And then, the lead artist changes AGAIN for IX, with Amano on as an assistant because IX was all about going back to "Final Fantasy's roots". By X, it was back to Nomura again, and then ANOTHER change for XII.

So three of the whiniest, spikiest-haired emo protagonists ever (Cloud, Squall and Tidus) were all designed by the same guy: Tetsuya Nomura. Not by the old school Final Fantasy designer, Amano. Coincidence?

 

[Xellos2099]

I mean the modern graphic made the character design fault shown more easily. Back in snes era, people can;t tell the difference between Cecil from some generic game character detail to small sized character and lack of detail in graphic.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

I mean the modern graphic made the character design fault shown more easily. Back in snes era, people can;t tell the difference between Cecil from some generic game character detail to small sized character and lack of detail in graphic.

I see. What you were saying was kind of unclear. I will edit that part out of my post.

To that end I would somewhat agree, but Cecil still looked like his concept art (especially in battle and with his menu screen portrait), but yes, there wasn't quite as much detail as with the fancier 3D graphics. And you can clearly see from the concept art how the character design changed (for the worse) from FFVII onwards once Amano left the series as the main artist.

Though, those blocky exploration screen FFVII characters were FUGLY!

 

[smackababy]

The modern graphic hasn't made character's less likable. It was the inclusion of the cutscene that killed it. Being able to release games on larger media allowed developers to add hours of cutscenes to their games. The PS3 is a huge example. MGS4? Seriously? And SquareEnix is terrible about it as well. I think disc 2-3 of FF7 had maybe 40 minutes total gameplay on them. The rest was cutscenes.

So, while writing gets progressively worse in JRPGs, the cutscenes get longer and more frequent. At least most of the Japanese voice acting is tip top. I guess having a pop culture based around voice actors makes good ones easier to find.

 

[Xellos2099]

The main problem with that was when FFVII come out, the age of 3D in rpg was just starting and the graphic are not that great to be honest. I actually prefer Wild Arm 1 over ffVII since it got 2d map and towns but simply 3d for battle.

The technology was not ready when FFVII come out for nice looking 3d character in the exploration screen. By the time FFIX come out, the technology was improved. Well, TBH, I would call FFIX to be one of my favorite rpg in ps1 era.

As for cut-scenes, it depends, I personally loved the vast amount of cut-scenes in game in Xenosaga. I like tt so much I download all the scene so I can watch them like a movie without replaying the game, same for mgs4. Now before all the naysayer tell me to go watch a movie instead, there is no Xenosaga movie and the anime version suck and it is so badly butchered it is not worth it.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

The modern graphic hasn't made character's less likable. It was the inclusion of the cutscene that killed it. Being able to release games on larger media allowed developers to add hours of cutscenes to their games. The PS3 is a huge example. MGS4? Seriously? And SquareEnix is terrible about it as well. I think disc 2-3 of FF7 had maybe 40 minutes total gameplay on them. The rest was cutscenes.

So, while writing gets progressively worse in JRPGs, the cutscenes get longer and more frequent. At least most of the Japanese voice acting is tip top. I guess having a pop culture based around voice actors makes good ones easier to find.

Here was a good quote from the console thread in the PC forums:

JRPG's to me are just a bunch of guys who couldn't make it in Tokyo making films so they turned to the video game world instead

The story in MGS4 was cringe-inducingly horrible, and Final Fantasy has been that way since VII. To top it all off, they put you to sleep and make you puke at the same time with a 15 minute cutscene every three minutes.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

The main problem with that was when FFVII come out, the age of 3D in rpg was just starting and the graphic are not that great to be honest. I actually prefer Wild Arm 1 over ffVII since it got 2d map and towns but simply 3d for battle.

The technology was not ready when FFVII come out for nice looking 3d character in the exploration screen. By the time FFIX come out, the technology was improved. Well, TBH, I would call FFIX to be one of my favorite rpg in ps1 era.

You keep going about the 3D graphics technology, when I have clearly been talking about the concept art on which the characters are based. The direction of the character design changed dramatically when Amano left after Final Fantasy VI. Technology has zero impact on how an artist would conceptualize a character.

 

[erwos]

In America, JRPG very much equals Final Fantasy.

In that case, I'd say that people have given Final Fantasy its own genre, and they simply aren't interested in JRPGs.

How many people have played Final Fantasy? How many people have played "Shin Megami Tensei"?

Too many for the former, too few for the latter?

I rest my case.

That people don't really play JRPGs, they play Final Fantasy?

Look, I understand what you're saying, but ignorance is not a valid defense of an argument. Play Persona 4 or Nocturne, then get back to us about how JRPGs suck these days.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

In that case, I'd say that people have given Final Fantasy its own genre, and they simply aren't interested in JRPGs.

But to America, Final Fantasy is THE JRPG. Even in Japan, Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest define the genre.

Too many for the former, too few for the latter?

Again, Final Fantasy is JRPG to those in America (and Japan too, along with Dragon Quest). Many of the obscure ones either don't get released here or have a very limited run.

That people don't really play JRPGs, they play Final Fantasy?

Look, I understand what you're saying, but ignorance is not a valid defense of an argument. Play Persona 4 or Nocturne, then get back to us about how JRPGs suck these days.

Final Fantasy is the JRPG genre definer, along with Dragon Quest. Just because you personally don't like it or disagree with it does not make it true.

I owned and played the first two Persona games years ago for the PSOne, and I sold them because I didn't enjoy them. I've never heard of this "Nocturne" game, whatever that is.

Would playing my original copies of Suikoden II or Valkyire Profile be "JRPG cred" and "acceptable" to you?

Or, perhaps, should I break out my original NES Final Fantasy cart, still with box and instructions? How about my Final Fantasy II, Final Fantasy III, Chrono Trigger and Secret of Mana SNES carts, still with original box and instructions? Black-bordered Final Fantasy VII and Final Fantasy Tactics, perhaps? Wish I still had my Dragon Warrior 1 NES cart with the Nintendo power strategy guide and hint card, but I lost those many years ago.

I am not some gaming noob who has only played Final Fantasy VII and onwards. Talking about obscure JRPGs nobody has played like it makes them superior does not impress me.

Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest ARE JRPG. That is the truth. The rest only inhabit a genre that those series define.

 

[FeathersMcGraw]

Emo characters aren't the problem. Poorly-written emo characters are the problem. The World Ends With You is about as angsty as the genre gets, and it may be one of my favorite JRPG stories ever.

 

[erwos]

Final Fantasy is the JRPG genre definer, along with Dragon Quest. Just because you personally don't like it or disagree with it does not make it true.

Does your opinion make it the truth instead? A genre is, almost by definition, more than one game, more than one series.

I owned and played the first two Persona games years ago for the PSOne, and I sold them because I didn't enjoy them. I've never heard of this "Nocturne" game, whatever that is.

Persona 3 & 4 are MUCH different games than Persona 1 & 2. In fact, you keep on proving my point, which is that you are basically unfamiliar with newer JRPGs outside of the FF games. Heck, your "OMG here's what I've got, I'm so awesome" games list is all FF, DQ, and older JRPGs. You seem to be unaware of all advancements in the genre past the PS1 stage.

Would playing my original copies of Suikoden II or Valkyire Profile be "JRPG cred" and "acceptable" to you?

Did you really not like Suikoden 2? But, hell, that game is quite old. I still submit you are unfamiliar with the genre as it currently is. Go try playing some more recent games, like the two I pointed out, and then tell us what you think. Persona 3 FES is, IMHO, one of the greatest games of the decade.

You are essentially saying the equivalent of "here's what shooters need" when all you've played is Quake 1-4 and a few older shooters. You're just not aware of what's out there these days. Change your thread title to "here's what Final Fantasy needs", and I won't object.

 

[smackababy]

I've played many a JRPG, and I prefer those for the SNES over anything that's been released since FF7 (which I hated).

And I have to say Wild Arms 2 was amazing.

 

[erwos]

I've played many a JRPG, and I prefer those for the SNES over anything that's been released since FF7 (which I hated).

After 6, the games really took a new direction. Arguably, the series really restarted itself with FF7... and some people don't like it, often with good reason.

And I have to say Wild Arms 2 was amazing.

Agreed. I was a little shocked when I got around to playing the Wild Arms series - the early games are quite good.

 

[BoberFett]

I'm sorry, that's incorrect. The correct answer is "Good writing." We were looking for "Good writing."

 

[TheNoblePlatypus]

They need bigger swords.

 

[flashbacck]

Stories that make sense?

 

[Taejin]

I keep seeing a certain person refer to Cloud as 'whiny' but I distinctly had the opposite impression.


OH and..

But to America, Final Fantasy is THE JRPG. Even in Japan, Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest define the genre.



Again, Final Fantasy is JRPG to those in America (and Japan too, along with Dragon Quest). Many of the obscure ones either don't get released here or have a very limited run.



Final Fantasy is the JRPG genre definer, along with Dragon Quest. Just because you personally don't like it or disagree with it does not make it true.

I owned and played the first two Persona games years ago for the PSOne, and I sold them because I didn't enjoy them. I've never heard of this "Nocturne" game, whatever that is.

Would playing my original copies of Suikoden II or Valkyire Profile be "JRPG cred" and "acceptable" to you?

Or, perhaps, should I break out my original NES Final Fantasy cart, still with box and instructions? How about my Final Fantasy II, Final Fantasy III, Chrono Trigger and Secret of Mana SNES carts, still with original box and instructions? Black-bordered Final Fantasy VII and Final Fantasy Tactics, perhaps? Wish I still had my Dragon Warrior 1 NES cart with the Nintendo power strategy guide and hint card, but I lost those many years ago.

I am not some gaming noob who has only played Final Fantasy VII and onwards. Talking about obscure JRPGs nobody has played like it makes them superior does not impress me.

Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest ARE JRPG. That is the truth. The rest only inhabit a genre that those series define.

God you're so fucking cool. Please don't procreate.

 

[KlokWyze]

Dragon Age was a little over the top on the negativity scale, I'll agree with that. But the estrogen flowing through the Final Fantasy series and other JRPG's is a real joy-kill nowadays. Someone else mentioned this earlier, I loved the older FF's (2 + 3 on the SNES, FF Tactics, FF7 + 8) but it's over for me, I'm not a teenager anymore and these pubescent main characters are highly annoying to me now. It all started with Tidus, his annoying high-pitched voice was murder on my ears.

Western RPG's all the way.

Sums up my thoughts. They are just too feminine. I can get over any of it and play it through if it's a good game. FFXII for instance... Vaan lol!