I have questions for 2A absolutists

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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,344
32,958
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The fact we're currently negotiating with the Taliban proves otherwise. Barring incredibly advanced future-tech (like drones with lasers kind of shit), guerrilla warfare can still starve out modern armed forces.
I'm not talking about eradication. I'm talking about suppression. Totally different animal and I don't think you can make the argument that the Taliban hasn't been suppressed from day one of our war on terror.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
17,367
16,636
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I'm not talking about eradication. I'm talking about suppression. Totally different animal and I don't think you can make the argument that the Taliban hasn't been suppressed from day one of our war on terror.
So then, that goes back to the original intent of the 2A. It's intended to give the populace a chance to fight back against an oppressive government. This is literally what the Taliban did, and now we're in negotiations with them, rather than having simply wiped them and their entire ideology off the face of the earth. Functionally, them having weaponry to defend themselves worked, and speaks volumes to the capacity of an armed citizenship, even with our multi-billion dollar weapons platforms.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,002
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well then we should start selling bazookas and anti-personnel mines to the people, plus artillery. after all the right to bear arms shall not be infringed and in order to overthrow a modern government you are gonna need some of those.

You actually can own those things... bazookas and large artillery type guns. Not sure about mines, but those aren't firearms anyway. You're making an exaggeration about what a firearm is to try and prove a point, but you aren't.


 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
14,930
3,908
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Plainly said, anyone that says they know that the populace would be crushed by the government in a civil war situation today is projecting what they would want to happen, not necessarily what would happen. Did you see how Vietnam went? Bunch of people with guns in the jungle vs. the almighty USA and overwhelming firepower.

Those scrappy Vietnamese insurgents were completely backed by China/USSR. An insurgency or Civil War Part Deux would also probably be at least indirectly backed by Russia.

But it won't happen. Americans just aren't as rebellious as they used to be, look at how other countries protest their governments (France, Hong Kong etc). Protests here are weak sauce compared to that. People just want to go to work, take their kids to soccer practice, watch football on the weekend etc. Would take massive shortages of some critical resource to upset that.

Regarding 2A, people don't need anything more than a bolt action rifle or a shotgun for home defense or hunting. Change my mind.
 

ecogen

Golden Member
Dec 24, 2016
1,217
1,288
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You actually can own those things... bazookas and large artillery type guns. Not sure about mines, but those aren't firearms anyway. You're making an exaggeration about what a firearm is to try and prove a point, but you aren't.

Wanna point out to us where the word "firearm" appears in the 2nd amendment? Arms =/= Firearms.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
17,367
16,636
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Wanna point out to us where the word "firearm" appears in the 2nd amendment? Arms =/= Firearms.
The word arms was used specifically so that the amendment couldn't be twisted to mean only a specific weapon type, and thus outclassed by the progress of time. It's absolutely ludicrous to state that the intent of those who wrote the amendment was to include only spears, swords, and bows, and not the state-of-the-art at the time.
 

ecogen

Golden Member
Dec 24, 2016
1,217
1,288
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The word arms was used specifically so that the amendment couldn't be twisted to mean only a specific weapon type, and thus outclassed by the progress of time. It's absolutely ludicrous to state that the intent of those who wrote the amendment was to include only spears, swords, and bows, and not the state-of-the-art at the time.

Oh, I agree. That's precisely my point. I still think your 2nd amendment is colossally stupid, I just find it funny that people like slow like to argue that "it just applies to firearms" and not other things that you're currently forbidden from owning.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,002
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Wanna point out to us where the word "firearm" appears in the 2nd amendment? Arms =/= Firearms.


When discussing the 2A we're talking about guns, not ordinance, right? If you'd like to argue that the 2A extends further, I'd be all for that. Truth is, one can legally own most types of military arms in one form or another. There are sometimes some hoops to jump through, and you may not be able to get the latest and greatest... but, one can own large weapons like cannons, tanks, military aircraft, explosives, etc. I've watched multiple civilian-owned tanks firing on Youtube.
 

ecogen

Golden Member
Dec 24, 2016
1,217
1,288
136
When discussing the 2A we're talking about guns, not ordinance, right? If you'd like to argue that the 2A extends further, I'd be all for that. Truth is, one can legally own most types of military arms in one form or another. There are sometimes some hoops to jump through, and you may not be able to get the latest and greatest... but, one can own large weapons like cannons, tanks, military aircraft, explosives, etc. I've watched multiple civilian-owned tanks firing on Youtube.

Can you own nukes? No? Good talk.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,002
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Oh, I agree. That's precisely my point. I still think your 2nd amendment is colossally stupid, I just find it funny that people like slow like to argue that "it just applies to firearms" and not other things that you're currently forbidden from owning.


I think it does apply to firearms, but isn't necessarily limited to firearms. Though the topic of the day is indeed firearms.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
26,067
24,395
136
What is clear is that guns contribute to gun violence. What would be refreshing is if the 2A absolutists would have the balls to say we don't want reasonable regulations on firearms and we accept gun violence and gun deaths as acceptable collateral damage for our freedoms. But they don't have the stones. You think all those guns they fetishize about would give them some balls to admit shit but surprise, they hide behind them.
 

ecogen

Golden Member
Dec 24, 2016
1,217
1,288
136
No, but you can own bombs. If you'd like to argue it means we can own nukes, good on ya.

My point is that your 2a rights are already being infringed by you not being able to own any kind of weapon.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
17,367
16,636
146
What is clear is that guns contribute to gun violence. What would be refreshing is if the 2A absolutists would have the balls to say we don't want reasonable regulations on firearms and we accept gun violence and gun deaths as acceptable collateral damage for our freedoms. But they don't have the stones. You think all those guns they fetishize about would give them some balls to admit shit but surprise, they hide behind them.
I've actually said exactly that a few times on this forum, when these topics come up. I personally think we actually do have reasonable regulations on firearms, and I personally accept gun violence as a cost of our freedoms. That's not something shared by basically anyone I know, so I accept that I'm an outlier on that.

I do think that many people are cowards, but I don't think it has any specific correlation to gun ownership or not.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
Gun buybacks often backfire. Gun buybacks will take pretty much any gun off the street. I personally know people that brought old crappy hunting rifles in, got their $500 gift card, and then went handgun shopping.

That's obvious bullshit. Name the jurisdiction where $500 was paid for every firearm presented.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,002
126
What is clear is that guns contribute to gun violence. What would be refreshing is if the 2A absolutists would have the balls to say we don't want reasonable regulations on firearms and we accept gun violence and gun deaths as acceptable collateral damage for our freedoms. But they don't have the stones. You think all those guns they fetishize about would give them some balls to admit shit but surprise, they hide behind them.


Actually that is largely exactly the point I've made here time and again when I point out how guns cause relatively little harm to society when compared to other liberties that no one cares about further limiting. As an example, if we're willing to live with 480,000 deaths due to tobacco, 88,000 deaths a year due to alcohol, and nothing substantial is being done to further limit those numbers, if no politician is running on a platform to take away rights in those categories to save lives, if no 2A'er gives a shit about those deaths, then you better not be arguing to limit our constitutionally coded right to own guns over the ~14,000 homicides + 25,000 suicides attributed to guns annually.

I'd like to see as close to zero preventable deaths per year as possible, not just with firearms, but with any preventable death. But, I am not willing to live in a society that gives away rights and freedom to try and make progress towards that. That is with just about any freedom, we accept that when that right is used irresponsibly it can cause harm. Do you think we should ban freedom of speech if it makes a difference in the number of suicides we have per year? You can only say nice things, it saves lives. Or do you accept that certain rights can cause harm, but we still keep those rights around?
 
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SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,002
126
That's obvious bullshit. Name the jurisdiction where $500 was paid for every firearm presented.

I didn't say that every firearm necessarily would get $500 in every buy back. Geez dude.

But, since you asked and appear clueless again...

https://wgno.com/2019/01/15/mayor-cantrell-announces-gun-buyback-day/

And let me show you an example of hysteria and anti-2A exaggeration ahead of logic:

https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2017/05/13/gift-cards-for-guns-buyback/

So, they're paying more for the guns that are implicated in SIGNIFICANTLY less firearms homicides than handguns. Fvcking brilliant.
 

Bird222

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2004
3,641
132
106
I'll dive in, if only because I tend to be one of the more vocal ones on this board when it comes to 2A.

Q1: This is a complicated question because it depends on who you ask. Strictly speaking, nobody lost their right to bear arms. Everyone can still go buy a gun (within the law). More people are affected by the outlawing of selling guns to felons than this specific ban, if you are going by the strict letter of the 2A. If you take a more broad approach though, the spirit of 2A was lessened by the restriction, if only because it created a divergence between the citizens and the government, in that the government can legally maintain more powerful weaponry than the citizens. Please don't take this statement to mean that I'm personally in favor of citizens owning tanks, missiles, nukes, whatever. Just stating that factually, part of the spirit of the 2A was to maintain an armed populace for self defense, as well as defense of the country against a government gone awry. Anything that curtails that in law, imho, lessens the 2A. Purely opinion/interpretation though.

Q2: Enforcing universal background checks 'technically' places the ability to deny gun ownership in the hands of the government, which is one of the facets that the 2A was designed to protect against. Again, it may not specifically deny 2A from the general populace, but it's an erosion of the right. Whether or not that erosion is acceptable to the people is for the people to decide. IMHO that shouldn't be left up to a single body, or really even representatives. I'd love to see a general populace vote on that one (and others).

Q3: Same as above, it doesn't strictly block 2A, but it erodes it, for the same reasons outlined in 1. If we are working on the assumption that it might be necessary to use these weapons one day to overthrow/defend oneself from an out of control government, any restriction in place technically limits that capability. This is only my interpretation, and doesn't reflect whether or not I personally think magazine sizes should be restricted.

Regarding each of the above, if left to me as a personal ruler of America, I'd probably not restrict 2A. There's other things I'd focus on if left personal ruler of America. If left to me to simply vote on the matter among my peers, I don't know which direction I'd vote on. It'd require me to carefully consider each proposal as they were written, as undoubtedly they'd be written like dogshit.

Final point, as I know it's going to come up. Just because the govt has access to tons of weaponry and troops that completely outclass anything available to the average citizen, that still doesn't mean that the 2A doesn't work. It's a multifaceted concept which is has a role in both deterrence and denial. Remember that throughout history, every country that has denied its citizenry the permission to own weaponry has eventually abused and/or killed its citizenry. Humanity doesn't change very quickly, and for all our hand-wringing over human rights and wokeness and all that shit, we're all about 5 missed meals from total anarchy. Current administration aside, the actions of the conservative party have proven that there's still Americans in power that have zero interest in maintaining the status quo, and would prefer us to slide backwards into an era of hatred, bigotry, and abuse. For that reason, I prefer to have a weapon, if only so that I have an option available when the time comes, rather than being caged into a course of action by an overwhelming force. I have extra fucks to give, so I've chosen to give fucks about this.
Well said. Too bad more people don't understand this.
 

Bird222

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2004
3,641
132
106
Personal liability insurance on all firearms. Must be renewed annually. Can't sell a gun without proof of liability insurance to your state records. I can't transfer a car without proving it. Shouldn't be able to sell a gun without it either.

"Liability" tax on all ammo and parts required to case/refill your own. It will be indexed to the death toll and hospital costs of gun violence the previous year.

If we can't ban something, we can tax the shit out of it. It's the 'Murican way!

That's still a de facto ban. We'll see if SCOTUS agrees.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
26,067
24,395
136
Actually that is largely exactly the point I've made here time and again when I point out how guns cause relatively little harm to society when compared to other liberties that no one cares about further limiting. As an example, if we're willing to live with 480,000 deaths due to tobacco, 88,000 deaths a year due to alcohol, and nothing substantial is being done to further limit those numbers, if no politician is running on a platform to take away rights in those categories to save lives, if no 2A'er gives a shit about those deaths, then you better not be arguing to limit our constitutionally coded right to own guns over the ~14,000 homicides + 25,000 suicides attributed to guns annually.

I'd like to see as close to zero preventable deaths per year as possible, not just with firearms, but with any preventable death. But, I am not willing to live in a society that gives away rights and freedom to try and make progress towards that. That is with just about any freedom, we accept that when that right is used irresponsibly it can cause harm. Do you think we should ban freedom of speech if it makes a difference in the number of suicides we have per year? You can only say nice things, it saves lives. Or do you accept that certain rights can cause harm, but we still keep those rights around?

I'm glad you can admit guns contribute to gun violence.

I certainly don't see any leading Republican 2a absolutists having the balls to say the violence is an acceptable exchange for our freedumbs. A couple anonymous keyboard warriors on the internet doesn't really say much of anything.
 

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
5,076
2,635
136
No, but you can own bombs. If you'd like to argue it means we can own nukes, good on ya.
I'm pretty sure you cannot own a stockpile of bombs in your basement without immediately going to jail. Heck there are many places where you cannot even walk around with a blade of a certain length. Our US weapon policy is totally hypocritical and ridiculous.

I also grossly disagree with the statement that unarmed populations always and inevitably are suppressed by their governments. That simply is not true in the overwhelming majority of countries, particularly democratic countries. On the other hand no one can argue credibly that armed populaces are safer or more free or even happier which at the end of the day are the things we want from our government and rights are supposed to be surrogates for.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
I didn't say that every firearm necessarily would get $500 in every buy back. Geez dude.

But, since you asked and appear clueless again...

https://wgno.com/2019/01/15/mayor-cantrell-announces-gun-buyback-day/

And let me show you an example of hysteria and anti-2A exaggeration ahead of logic:

https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2017/05/13/gift-cards-for-guns-buyback/

So, they're paying more for the guns that are implicated in SIGNIFICANTLY less firearms homicides than handguns. Fvcking brilliant.

You claimed you know people who got $500 for old beat up hunting rifles worth a fraction of that amount.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,002
126
I'm glad you can admit guns contribute to gun violence.

I certainly don't see any leading Republican 2a absolutists having the balls to say the violence is an acceptable exchange for our freedumbs. A couple anonymous keyboard warriors on the internet doesn't really say much of anything.


Guns contribute to gun violence. Knives contribute to knife violence (which by the way, kill FAR more than AR15's and all rifles). That just plainly stands to reason. That doesn't mean those things are the root cause of problems involving them or their restriction should be the fix.

But, there is the flip side too. Guns are used legally to stop crimes and potentially save lives quite literally 10's of thousands of times per year.

And the statistics cannot show the whole picture. This story was recently in the news. All of the teens involved had lengthy prior records, they arrived in a stolen car. How many future crimes, possibly lives were saved by this gun owner's actions?
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,002
126
You claimed you know people who got $500 for old beat up hunting rifles worth a fraction of that amount.


Yes, people I've spoke to on gun forums in the past have said this and one person I've gone shooting with before traded in his gun at a buyback outside of Chicago, he told me he got $500 for one of his old rifles. If I remember correctly he put that money towards a higher end 1911.