I Have No Respect for People in the Army

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Jaepheth

Platinum Member
Apr 29, 2006
2,572
25
91
You get all kinds in the military; just as with any other appreciably large group of people. Each person earns respect or disrespect on their own merit, not by being a member or affiliate of any specific group.


Although... wasn't there a report awhile ago about gang members joining the military, and then bringing their training back to the streets? I'd be most worried about those cases.
 

Zeze

Lifer
Mar 4, 2011
11,395
1,188
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Do you know how much school we go to and have offered to us as enlisted men/women? Do you have any idea the schools you have to have to make rate in the Army/Navy? Do you know what an "A" school is? "B" school? Do you know that that grunt that is firing that rocket went to 3 years of school before he did one tour/cruise? The guys tending to those nuke power plants on CVN's have to pass a school that they cant even take the notes home to study from?

I'm starting to think your not exactly smart

For every 1 rocket operator, there are 50 foot soldiers that joined after dropping out of HS. We can all cherry-pick good examples to counter it all day.

I'm not in the same boat as OP, but generalizations exist for a reason.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
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The only thing I find annoying about people who were in the armed forces is that some use it as a crutch and/or reason for getting stuff they want. "I was in the <insert branch>. I should get the job/promotion." First, no one forced you to join. Second, how about explaining how your experience in <insert branch> is relevant to the job/promotion you're seeking.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
Looks like you are exactly what they are looking for.

Someone that can not think for themselves and must be spoon fed ideas and thoughts.

IE. Your post is full of crap and I only made it past the second paragraph
 

zanejohnson

Diamond Member
Nov 29, 2002
7,054
17
81
i have to say, i commemorate the men and women who do join the service for the right reasons, and there are some.... one of my friends for example, nicest guy in the world, just didnt have alot going for him education wise, dropped out of HS, etc..... well he joined up, but he treats it like a JOB. nothing more... he doesnt even agree with our warring ways... which i hate as well...

i think all that money we spend on 80 million dollar jets, and 2 million dollar missiles, should be better spent, if we want to HELP foreign countries, we should be there with shovels and tractors, not automatic rifles and tanks.
 

datalink7

Lifer
Jan 23, 2001
16,765
6
81
Before I begin, let me say that the title can be a tiny bit misleading. I wanted to capture my general attitude on the subject as well as attention to the post. It's not that I have zero respect for people in the armed forces and that I hate them, but that I do not think they deserve the respect that people generally give them. I always hear - on the radio, television, and the general public, how we should be super-respectful and honorary of soldiers. It makes my stomach crawl when I hear soldiers being commemorated as if they joined the army to protect the nation from harm and bring peace to the world. Why do I feel this way? See below.

If you joined the army, you are most likely not the type of person who thinks with their head but with fists. You probably played Football in high-school, or some other type of violent sport, and have anger management problems. You chose not to study and as a result could not afford/had the desire to enter a college.

Most soldiers in the army joined because they are allowed to behave violently, legally, whilst getting payed. If they would have stayed in the the working class society, they would most likely end up unsuccessful.

Most, not all, army personnel do not fight because they want to help the nation. They fight because they love to fight. They are confrontational and desire action. It's like a license to kill.

That's why when I hear the respect they get for fighting, I cringe. These people risk their lives not for you, not for me, not for the country or world peace, but for themselves. They are violent and action-oriented people.

A simple analogy I just thought of is a Nascar driver. Their job is potentially fatal. They know what they are getting themselves into. But when they die you don't see the public appreciating their efforts. It's something they chose to do. Same with soldiers, they knew the deal, they did not fit well into society, and thus chose to fight.

I imagine many of you think I'm unappreciative and cruel for posting this. I actually LOVE the fact that people like this exist, I appreciate that they do what they do, even while I realize they do it more for themselves than for me, but I don't believe they should be praised the way they are today. Soldiers are not saints, they are just violent men who do what they love to do.

Obviously not every single man in the army is violent. Some are probably even educated, intelligent, college-material folks. I'm sure some join just to fight for what they believe in and to rid the world of injustice. But what I'm getting is that the majority, maybe 85% or so, do it because they have a lust to fight, to kill.

Oh, and this does not apply to people who were drafted or forced unwillingly to join the ranks. It applies only to those hard-knocks who joined on their own accord and that are fighting in Iraq, Afghanistan...the middle east.

P.S.

No, I was never bullied by soldiers/grunts. No, my mother was not raped by an ex-marine. I have not had any negative experiences with these men. In fact, I have acquiescence's who want are in the army who I love to share a beer with. But they don't deserve the appreciation they get, that's all I think.

What to you guys think? Constructively.

You are very wrong, but I'm not even sure where to begin.

Starting with me, I played baseball and soccer growing up. If you want to call those violent sports, I suppose you could try but I doubt you could really make the connection.

I studied Philosophy in college, and earned my degree in it. I joined because I wanted to serve my country, and be a part of something that made a difference in the world. I believed this so strongly I refused any scholarship that ROTC offered me, simply wanting to join without any other benefits.

I got commissioned as a 2nd Lieutenant in 2005.

Oh, and by the way, the Army has done a lot of studies on personalities within the Army. Are you aware that the majority of officers are introverts?

I served as an Infantry Platoon Leader during the Surge into Baghdad. I conducted combat patrols every day for 15 months. I lived with those and were one of the Soldiers who were constantly in the fight.

Speaking of which, most Soldiers in the Army are NOT in the fight. It takes a certain amount of Soldiers to provide support for that Soldier who is on the front. Yes, their jobs are important. But they didn't join to "fight" because they aren't directly in the fight anyway.

The Soldiers that you describe, who joined because they wanted to behave violently and get away with it? There were exactly three of those in my Platoon, out of 35 Soldiers. And this was a platoon of Infantry, those who are directly involved in the fighting. The ratio is probably much less in the rest of the Army. Of those three Soldiers, two were able to conduct themselves in a manner that was consistent with Army values. One was not, so I got rid of him.

So, even if that is the reason that someone wanted to join, that doesn't mean they are going to get away with anything.

As for the rest, there is a rush you feel during combat. That adrenalin kicks in and it can be addicting. But most Soldiers aren't thirsting for it every minute of every day. You've seen video's where Soldiers are yelling and screaming in combat. They are caught up in the moment and you have no clue, if you haven't been there, of the rush of energy you get while in that situation.

What you don't see if the video's before the Soldier's leave the gate. The ones were they sit in quiet contemplation, often feeling ill, wondering if this will be their last day on this earth. Furiously scribbling letters to their loved ones, or looking over a crumpled picture they've kept in their pocket. They aren't looking for a fight, but even with dread in their hearts, they still step outside that protective wall and go to do their duty.

They are just normal people, not some violent thug you make them out to be. And that's why my Soldiers deserve respect. Not because they are extraordinary people. They aren't. The Army is like a sample of the United States, with people from all walks of life and all kinds of backgrounds.

They deserve respect because they are ordinary people, called upon to accomplish the extraordinary for their country.

Also, I just got off of a 2 years tour as a company commander for South Jersey Recruiting Company. My Company enlisted over a thousand Soldiers during that time. I talked to every single one, and I always asked them why they decided to join. I'd say less than 30 stated something along the lines of "I want action".

I supposed I've rambled on long enough.
 

Apple Of Sodom

Golden Member
Oct 7, 2007
1,808
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You are all missing the point. Every walk of life has complete idiots. Go to a McDonald's and you will see them. You might also see someone working there that has a degree and hasn't found a good job yet. You might also see someone there that has an MBA and is running the business and looking at opening another franchise. But mostly you will see stupid kids flipping burgers.

THE BIG DIFFERENCE - we automatically pour respect and honor all over these soldiers, like Peter North giving a money shot. We don't do that to many other jobs, no matter how dangerous. Being a commercial fisherman is more dangerous than being a soldier, but we don't have fucking banners and parades for them.

There are a lot of exemplary military men and women. But there are far more assholes who are beating the shit out of people in our bars, selling drugs, and even killing people in my town. And we automatically praise these people when we see them in a uniform because they are doing a job that we pay to train them for and they volunteered to do?
 

ichy

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2006
6,940
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With the current economy the Army isn't accepting too many high school dropouts...
 

Apple Of Sodom

Golden Member
Oct 7, 2007
1,808
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They deserve respect because they are ordinary people, called upon to accomplish the extraordinary for their country.


WRONG! There is no draft. They volunteered. They weren't called upon. They don't deserve any more respect than a school teacher or social worker.
 

datalink7

Lifer
Jan 23, 2001
16,765
6
81
And I'm also not saying a blank check of unlimited respect.

If a member of the military (or a school teacher) shows themselves to not be deserving of respect, then they should not be afforded it.
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,601
167
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www.slatebrookfarm.com
Okay, I've watched this thread for a bit, completely expecting to have to infraction/ban someone.


I think I can sum up the OP's feelings and make them sound a bit less trollish:
The OP believes, and probably correctly, that for the majority of those who join the Army, the *primary* motivator isn't to serve the country. I don't believe for a second though that what he suggests as a primary motivator is true, except for a small minority of enlistees. There are a lot of other motivators - family tradition, money for college, learn a skill, need more discipline, peer/family pressure, etc. Individually, each of these probably FAR outweighs his suggestion of it's people looking for a fight.


OP, how's this: "The primary motivator for the majority of enlistees in the Army isn't to fight for our country, our freedoms, and to serve. However, the media frequently treats this as the primary motivator and states that we should respect these men for this particular reason."

The problem is that this misses this point: for many (most?) - serving our country, fighting for our freedoms, protecting us is STILL a motivator for the majority of people in the Army.
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
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For every 1 rocket operator, there are 50 foot soldiers that joined after dropping out of HS. We can all cherry-pick good examples to counter it all day.

I'm not in the same boat as OP, but generalizations exist for a reason.

The army doesn't recruit high school dropouts.
 

JTsyo

Lifer
Nov 18, 2007
12,024
1,131
126
Most soldiers in the army joined because they are allowed to behave violently, legally, whilst getting payed. If they would have stayed in the the working class society, they would most likely end up unsuccessful.

Most, not all, army personnel do not fight because they want to help the nation. They fight because they love to fight. They are confrontational and desire action. It's like a license to kill.

That's why when I hear the respect they get for fighting, I cringe. These people risk their lives not for you, not for me, not for the country or world peace, but for themselves. They are violent and action-oriented people.

This part of the OP is just flat out wrong. While there are some that would be classified psychopaths, most would fall under normal human behavior. The US Army has some of the strictest Rules of Engagement and it's understood that in the ME the soldiers need to be on their best behavior to keep the favor of the locals.

Only a small percent of soldiers are combat soldiers. Most that join will never even fire a gun at the enemy.

Soldiers deserve our respect since they are signing up for a job that has the potential to get themselves killed or maimed. They deserve respect because the serve our country for months at a time on foreign soil or on the sea, away from their loved ones. And they especially deserve the respect since they fight so we don't have to.
 

Apple Of Sodom

Golden Member
Oct 7, 2007
1,808
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they are risking their life for your safety and freedom. eat a dick.

Meh. Not true. What does the Middle East have to do with us? Nothing threatened our freedom, and our safety is actually being protected by police, CIA, FBI, DHS and a few dozen other agencies.
 

Carousel

Member
Jul 21, 2011
25
0
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Yes, many of you correctly read and interpreted my original post. The others simply read parts, incorrectly assuming that I think all soldiers are animals.

Let me repeat, NOT EVERY SINGLE ENLISTED SOUL is there to fight. Many join to pay for college, due to familial pressure, and probably hundreds if not thousands of other reasons. What I am saying is that the majority (read: most of the low rankers and some high) are simply there to fight because they like to fight.

Regarding the officers: they are officers for a reason. They either matured out of their violent state or were always mature and therefore got promoted in the first place.

For those who try to totally disrepute my point: how can you? Take the stereotype of a soldier. They are almost always rude, they smoke/drink, uneducated, and violently mannered. Stereotypes exist for a reason! They wouldn't exist if the stereotype was not true. Lastly, stereotypes do NOT paint over every single person, just the majority.

Let's say, hypothetically, we take 100 random low rank soldiers who volunteered to join and give them the SAT. Then let's take 100 random draftees. Without a doubt the draftees will score higher, indicating that they are more intelligent in regard to grammar, critical thinking, and mathematics.

The people who lost friends/family that are enlisted, I'm sorry for your loss. But these people, MOST LIKELY, were not intelligent, mannered, controlled, individuals.
 

datalink7

Lifer
Jan 23, 2001
16,765
6
81
Yes, many of you correctly read and interpreted my original post. The others simply read parts, incorrectly assuming that I think all soldiers are animals.

Let me repeat, NOT EVERY SINGLE ENLISTED SOUL is there to fight. Many join to pay for college, due to familial pressure, and probably hundreds if not thousands of other reasons. What I am saying is that the majority (read: most of the low rankers and some high) are simply there to fight because they like to fight.
.

And as I stated in my previous post, your hypothesis is dead wrong.

It is correct that the majority don't join to "serve their country". However, the majority did NOT join so that they could "fight" and because they are "violent individuals."
 

Carousel

Member
Jul 21, 2011
25
0
0
they are risking their life for your safety and freedom. eat a dick.

Just as I generalized about the soldiers being violent, I can assume you are not a very smart person. Your paycheck is most likely low, college education mediocre (if any), and IQ low. Educated people simply don't post the kind of garbage you just did.

Disagreeing with me does not make you stupid, however. Just have an argument that you can back up your claim with. Risking their life for my safety and freedom is not a viable one. They are at work, just like I am, except that they get praised while almost every other profession gets scolded.
 

LookBehindYou

Platinum Member
Dec 23, 2010
2,412
1
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Persnally, I don't think the motivation to enlist matters. They (I, We) enlisted and you didn't. Whether it was to server your country, get education benefits, or go gun down som towelheads, the motivation behind enlisting shouldnt matter.

It's a job that has to be done, that a lot of people just aren't cut out to do. It would be reccomended to respect the people that do it, but nobody is forcing you to.

I don't think you'll find many people who were in the military actively demanding respect because they served or demanding discounts, benefits, parades or whatever.

I did 9 years in the Air Force btw.
 

Carousel

Member
Jul 21, 2011
25
0
0
And as I stated in my previous post, your hypothesis is dead wrong.

It is correct that the majority don't join to "serve their country". However, the majority did NOT join so that they could "fight" and because they are "violent individuals."

Please elaborate. Why do you think the majority joined? Is it because they wanted to help our country, help them pay for college, or something else financially motivated? I highly doubt it.
 

AreaCode707

Lifer
Sep 21, 2001
18,447
133
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Stereotypes exist for a reason! They wouldn't exist if the stereotype was not true.

This is your problem, right here. That statement is patently false.

Stereotypes exist because the human mind does not have the free space to take in all necessary information about an individual, carefully weigh it and draw an appropriate conclusion. Stereotypes are a mental trick to help us shortcut our assessment and interactions with people. And stereotypes can most certainly be incorrect.

It is our job to sort through our stereotypes constantly to see which are fallacious and which are still close enough to the truth that they serve a purpose.

As far as military IQ goes, enjoy this read, and please feel free to dig into the source material:
http://isteve.blogspot.com/2006/11/average-iq-of-enlisted-men.html

From table 2.8 of the is Department of Defense document, I estimate that the average for new enlisted men in 1998 was about 105.

This would be in the 60th to 65th percentile compared to all the young people in America when the Armed Forces Qualification Test was normalized in 1980 on the National Longitudinal Study of Youth's sample of 13,000 people ages 15-23. (This is the same enormous study that provides the data in Section 2 of The Bell Curve.)