I have joined Nvidia's Focus Group.

[Sind]

I don't believe that anyone in a focus group should be in charge of moderation. If AT admins are fine with that then so be it, frankly despite how anyone person may be perceived as unbiased the opportunity is still there when it shouldn't be. Grats on your acceptance though!

 

[Janooo]

Originally posted by: DerekWilson

Originally posted by: BFG10K
As a mod I fully respect Derek's decision.

As a poster I am not happy with this. IMO the most important attribute of a mod is total neutrality, both through actions and through public perception.

As a focus group member paid to promote a company, neutrality is simply not possible as there's always a conflict of interest.

Hi guys. I just want to chime in and say that some of you are really blowing this out of proportion.

Keys let me know about this when it happened. He's letting all of you know now as well. While any of you can take or leave his statements on the forum (while factoring in his NVIDIA relationship), his ability to moderate is not in question.

While I believe keys will still be a good source of testing and information, I know some of you will feel the need to distrust what he says. This is fine -- go find another source to confirm or refute and/or test things for yourself.

But his opinions or affiliations have nothing to do with moderation. Lashing out against AMD fans or being lenient on NVIDIA fans will not do anything but stir up problems both for keys and for NVIDIA. No one wants this, and I strongly believe that keys can remain fair in his moderation.

Rollo was vetoed as a moderator candidate because he consistently lied to members and moderators about his affiliation and manipulated people through deception. He was a viral marketer whether he wants to admit it or not, and AEG was a problem. This is not the same as the current NVIDIA focus group. His current participation with NVIDIA's focus group had nothing to do with him not being a moderator. His history as a member here is what sealed the deal on that one.

NVIDIA focus group members do not exist to promote NVIDIA or sell NVIDIA products.

Focus group members are actively discouraged from doing any type of marketing. Relaying press releases and information is one thing, but they do not want their focus group members to act as or be perceived as shills.

That's tough for Rollo because he absolutely did behave as a shill. He promoted NVIDIA products while conceling and denying his relationship with them, and it doesn't matter whether anything he said was what he really felt or not -- his behavior was reprehensible.

I'd take 1 keys over 10000 Rollos.

I had hoped that the time keys has been here, the work he's put into the forums, the excellent job he's done as a moderator, and the fact that he is being open and honest about the situation would go a long way with all of you. If it doesn't, let me add once again that if there is any problem with keys as a moderator, please let me know immediately and I will absolutely deal with it.

Again, NVIDIA focus group members do not exist to promote NVIDIA or sell NVIDIA products. This is not what NVIDIA wants them around for.

AEG -- different story. This is not that.

keys is still keys ... his affiliations don't matter, only his actions. his history here does a good job of illustrating who he is -- don't throw all that out because of this.

now that he's a focus group member, everyone here can weigh his forum posts with that in mind. but it really doesn't have anything to do with moderation.

Rollo promotes NVIDIA products. What a shame if he is not suppose to.
Keys did it before as well.
Are we suppose to expect him not to in the future?

 

[Extelleron]

Originally posted by: Janooo

Originally posted by: DerekWilson

Originally posted by: BFG10K
As a mod I fully respect Derek's decision.

As a poster I am not happy with this. IMO the most important attribute of a mod is total neutrality, both through actions and through public perception.

As a focus group member paid to promote a company, neutrality is simply not possible as there's always a conflict of interest.

Hi guys. I just want to chime in and say that some of you are really blowing this out of proportion.

Keys let me know about this when it happened. He's letting all of you know now as well. While any of you can take or leave his statements on the forum (while factoring in his NVIDIA relationship), his ability to moderate is not in question.

While I believe keys will still be a good source of testing and information, I know some of you will feel the need to distrust what he says. This is fine -- go find another source to confirm or refute and/or test things for yourself.

But his opinions or affiliations have nothing to do with moderation. Lashing out against AMD fans or being lenient on NVIDIA fans will not do anything but stir up problems both for keys and for NVIDIA. No one wants this, and I strongly believe that keys can remain fair in his moderation.

Rollo was vetoed as a moderator candidate because he consistently lied to members and moderators about his affiliation and manipulated people through deception. He was a viral marketer whether he wants to admit it or not, and AEG was a problem. This is not the same as the current NVIDIA focus group. His current participation with NVIDIA's focus group had nothing to do with him not being a moderator. His history as a member here is what sealed the deal on that one.

NVIDIA focus group members do not exist to promote NVIDIA or sell NVIDIA products.

Focus group members are actively discouraged from doing any type of marketing. Relaying press releases and information is one thing, but they do not want their focus group members to act as or be perceived as shills.

That's tough for Rollo because he absolutely did behave as a shill. He promoted NVIDIA products while conceling and denying his relationship with them, and it doesn't matter whether anything he said was what he really felt or not -- his behavior was reprehensible.

I'd take 1 keys over 10000 Rollos.

I had hoped that the time keys has been here, the work he's put into the forums, the excellent job he's done as a moderator, and the fact that he is being open and honest about the situation would go a long way with all of you. If it doesn't, let me add once again that if there is any problem with keys as a moderator, please let me know immediately and I will absolutely deal with it.

Again, NVIDIA focus group members do not exist to promote NVIDIA or sell NVIDIA products. This is not what NVIDIA wants them around for.

AEG -- different story. This is not that.

keys is still keys ... his affiliations don't matter, only his actions. his history here does a good job of illustrating who he is -- don't throw all that out because of this.

now that he's a focus group member, everyone here can weigh his forum posts with that in mind. but it really doesn't have anything to do with moderation.

Rollo promotes NVIDIA products. What a shame if he is not suppose to.
Keys did it before as well.
Are we suppose to expect him not to in the future?

Rollo does not actively engage in promoting or marketing nVidia products on this forum. He does recommend nVidia over AMD and sometimes stretches the facts quite a bit, but he does not actually market nVidia products.

Keys has always shown a preference to nVidia products in my experience, but I don't think he has ever tried to convince someone to buy an nVidia product when it did not make sense. He does not engage in marketing/promotion and I don't think he will.

 

[CaiNaM]

meh.. cut him some slack.

keys' role as mod should be based solely on his actions in that role, nothing else. as Extelleron mentioned above, he's always leaned a bit more toward nvidia, so why does it make any difference now?

too many ppl are spending way too much effort ranting about this, to the point that much of it is juvenile. no wonder i hardly post here any more...

 

[NinjaJedi]

If you or any other AT mod/editor can't see the conflict of interest in a mod being a part of a companies marketing group that you do reviews for something is really wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focus_group

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: NinjaJedi
If you or any other AT mod/editor can't see the conflict of interest in a mod being a part of a companies marketing group that you do reviews for something is really wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focus_group

what conflict of interest?

keys' job as a mod is not to promote neutrality, but to ensure the members of the forum stay within the guidelines of the forum.

and you should also read the link you provided...

Originally posted by: Dragon5152
However, the fact that you sold yourself out to this "focus group" throws you right back in the crowd and as a consumer, I have to assume you will be biased now.

umm.. when was he ever NOT a consumer?

 

[schneiderguy]

Originally posted by: Extelleron

Rollo does not actively engage in promoting or marketing nVidia products on this forum.

What? Yes he does. Your next sentence:

He does recommend nVidia over AMD and sometimes stretches the facts quite a bit, but he does not actually market nVidia products.

That is called marketing.

 

[Demoth]

One fear I have is Keys strictly enforcing the forum rules when it comes to Rollo, thus leaving him to roam a bit more freely again when the situation warrants. One highly intelligent, likeable and literate person like Rollo, spreading disinformation unchecked, can cause problems. In fact, it did here recently. What Derek Wilson had stated about Rollo was absolutely true. If any other poster had said it, they might be facing punishment for personal attacks. Just to get things clear, this is exactly what Rollo was/is-

http://www.joystiq.com/2006/02...n-fans-shill-for-gear/

This is the type of subtle influence I am talking about when it comes to a mod having even unconcious relationships with corporations or their entities.

When people are stating that focus group membership does not effect the ability to enforce rules, think again. Much of what mods can do will happen in secrecy where it would be against the rules to even discuss individual cases in public.

Not only what is said needs to be watched, but what rules are enforced and if anyone is getting any favortism. Again, I am not accusing anyone of anything. However, if someone hooked me up with a constant stream of pre-released hardware for free, I might be cutting them a lot of breaks.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Congrats on your promotion Keys.

:thumbsup:

edit - Give him a break guys, this is getting way out of hand.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: BFG10K
As a mod I fully respect Derek's decision.

As a poster I am not happy with this. IMO the most important attribute of a mod is total neutrality, both through actions and through public perception.

As a focus group member paid to promote a company, neutrality is simply not possible as there's always a conflict of interest.

Well without naming names I can think of a few mods who have posted in a biased way in the past. As far as I know none of them were ever focus group members or "beta testers" for either company. Now I would like to think that because they are mods they would not let that get in the way of their role here in the forum.

However your post makes me think I should reconsider and assume that they may not have changed a bit. As I recall there was plenty of controversy over the mod selections in this forum.

Being a focus group member does not mean someone is now totally biased an unworthy of being a mod. Just as not being a member does not rule out such behavior.

 

[AmdInside]

I kinda have to agree with some other members here. Mods should not be working closely with any 3rd party company. Look at how bad journalism is today. There really is no impartial journalists in main stream media. Anyways, I don't have a problem with Keys personally. I just think a mod should just be a mod. Apoppin is one of biggest ATI fanboys on here and I have no idea how he became a mod. When you lose credability, you lose what makes a message board special. Like I said, it isn't anything towards Keys...just a general practice rule.

 

[SunnyD]

As this thread has demonstrated, and of course spilled out over the confines of the thread - keys & Derek, I would suggest that THIS thread gets locked and everything just goes it's own way. Of course, I'm not a mod, but the repercussions are obvious already.

 

[BFG10K]

But I am still waiting for an example of how my being a member of the focus group would affect my moderating duties?

Because of a bias towards nVidia due to your affiliation?

Let me ask you a question: if you didn't post at any forum do you think nVidia would want you to be a focus group member?

Of course not.

They give you hardware and in exchange they expect you to promote them to some degree, whether directly or indirectly.

Oh sure, we can pretend otherwise but that's rather naive given they have no other possible reason to give you free hardware.

You could start a bashing thread to try to get Nvidia's attention, or you could just tell me about it. Or Rollo. You now have two direct links. You know you're going to be heard one way or the other. Is that not a cool thing?

Puh-lease, don't pretend this is actually viable.

My driver thread has been running since November 2006 and Rollo has forwarded it to nVidia management at least twice and I'm still seeing the same issues here in March 2008, many of which have been around since G80?s launch.

I am very grateful for Rollo?s efforts but it?s obvious nVidia don?t give a shit about what he?s sending them.

nVidia doesn?t give you free hardware to report driver problems because you don?t even need hardware to do that.

 

[SilentRunning]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

You could start a bashing thread to try to get Nvidia's attention, or you could just tell me about it. Or Rollo. You now have two direct links. You know you're going to be heard one way or the other. Is that not a cool thing?

Puh-lease, don't pretend this is actually viable.

My driver thread has been running since November 2006 and Rollo has forwarded it to nVidia management at least twice and I'm still seeing the same issues here in March 2008, many of which have been around since G80?s launch.

I am very grateful for Rollo?s efforts but it?s obvious nVidia don?t give a shit about what he?s sending them.

nVidia doesn?t give you free hardware to report driver problems because you don?t even need hardware to do that.

I will paraphrase from someone I know with in the PC industry:

"Every time we bring a problem to nvidia's attention, the never fix it."

So I really doubt they care much about problems reported in forums.

Just to be fair, here is what they stated about AMD/ATI:

"ATI (before merger) always worked with us to fix problems."

"AMD (ATI currently) is running around like a chicken with its head cut off"

And for good measure:

"Intel always has an answer for us even if at times it is B.S."

 

[TheRyuu]

Originally posted by: BFG10K

But I am still waiting for an example of how my being a member of the focus group would affect my moderating duties?

Because of a bias towards nVidia due to your affiliation?

Let me ask you a question: if you didn't post at any forum do you think nVidia would want you to be a focus group member?

Of course not.

They give you hardware and in exchange they expect you to promote them to some degree, whether directly or indirectly.

Oh sure, we can pretend otherwise but that's rather naive given they have no other possible reason to give you free hardware.

You could start a bashing thread to try to get Nvidia's attention, or you could just tell me about it. Or Rollo. You now have two direct links. You know you're going to be heard one way or the other. Is that not a cool thing?

Puh-lease, don't pretend this is actually viable.

My driver thread has been running since November 2006 and Rollo has forwarded it to nVidia management at least twice and I'm still seeing the same issues here in March 2008, many of which have been around since G80?s launch.

I am very grateful for Rollo?s efforts but it?s obvious nVidia don?t give a shit about what he?s sending them.

nVidia doesn?t give you free hardware to report driver problems because you don?t even need hardware to do that.

I would have to agree with BFG10K here.
Even if the thread did get closed it would be useless. All of this would just spill out and continue in a more uncontrollable manner. Having a dedicated thread is probably better when you look at it.

 

[MegaWorks]

Keys I respect you very much. But my concern is similar to BFG10Ks. I don't want to repeat

myself but I do hope that you understand. Public perception and the image of AT.

 

[BFG10K]

Keys I respect you very much.

Yeah, don't get me wrong Keys, I am not attacking you.

I am attacking the concept of a moderator being affiliated to nVidia's focus group, especially based on past history in video and public perception as a result.

 

[JustaGeek]

I strongly believe that NVidia should have NEVER done a move like that.

The AT is a very important forum to which many people and publications refer in their articles, or personal search for hardware.

So what do they do...?

They offer free stuff to the moderator!

If anyone is to blame here, it is NVidia.

And it happened on the eve of their newest product release.

It just makes me wonder...

 

[HopJokey]

Keys, you have done a great job as a moderator so far. I personally do not care that you are both now a ATF mod and a member of NV's Focus group. I am 100% sure you will keep doing the same good job as moderator going forward.

However, I must agree with many others (for example ViRGE, MegatWorks, SunnyD, BFG10k) that in terms of perception (unjust as it may be) it does not look good when an impartial moderator has an affiliation with a commercial vendor.

Yes a moderator's job is to uphold the TOS/guidelines and NOT promote neutrality, but when a moderator of a "unbias" forum and journal site is getting stuff from a third party vendor I think it tarnishes the reputation of the site a little bit with a hint of conflict of interest.

In the end though, if there was a vote, like I said I it is okay with me. And it's ok with DWilson as well which matters most. I'm just trying to play Devil's Advocate here.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: Demoth
One highly intelligent, likeable and literate person like Rollo, spreading disinformation unchecked, can cause problems.

This is your brain.

This is your brain on Rollo

Any questions?




Although you apparently think I use my "talents" for ill gain, I appreciate the compliments!

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: JustaGeek
I strongly believe that NVidia should have NEVER done a move like that.

The AT is a very important forum to which many people and publications refer in their articles, or personal search for hardware.

So what do they do...?

They offer free stuff to the moderator!

If anyone is to blame here, it is NVidia.

And it happened on the eve of their newest product release.

It just makes me wonder...

OMG ... *BRILLIANT* analysis .. nothing to with *Us* at all ... not ATF, not Keys, not Derek - they are honorable men - beyond any reasonable doubt. Proven and tested.

i think the PR branch that does this dirty shit needs to be brought "in-line" with the rest of the company - which IS honorable. i don't think NVIDIA's CEO would approve of this - if he knew.

 

[JustaGeek]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: JustaGeek
I strongly believe that NVidia should have NEVER done a move like that.

The AT is a very important forum to which many people and publications refer in their articles, or personal search for hardware.

So what do they do...?

They offer free stuff to the moderator!

If anyone is to blame here, it is NVidia.

And it happened on the eve of their newest product release.

It just makes me wonder...

OMG ... *BRILLIANT* analysis .. nothing to with *Us* at all ... not ATF, not Keys, not Derek - they are honorable men - beyond any reasonable doubt. Proven and tested.

i think the PR branch that does this dirty shit needs to be brought "in-line" with the rest of the company - which IS honorable. i don't think NVIDIA's CEO would approve of this - if he knew.

A "lifetime" supply of free motherboards and latest Video Cards...?

This is an ULTIMATE offer a computer enthusiast just CAN'T REFUSE.

 

[thestain]

Keysplayer,

Can you ask them why there are no longer any video cards available with full ownership rights for the end user? Is it due to DMCA and other laws and the cost of manufacturing to have gpu's with and without full ownership to the end user?

The Stain

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: JustaGeek

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: JustaGeek
I strongly believe that NVidia should have NEVER done a move like that.

The AT is a very important forum to which many people and publications refer in their articles, or personal search for hardware.

So what do they do...?

They offer free stuff to the moderator!

If anyone is to blame here, it is NVidia.

And it happened on the eve of their newest product release.

It just makes me wonder...

OMG ... *BRILLIANT* analysis .. nothing to with *Us* at all ... not ATF, not Keys, not Derek - they are honorable men - beyond any reasonable doubt. Proven and tested.

i think the PR branch that does this dirty shit needs to be brought "in-line" with the rest of the company - which IS honorable. i don't think NVIDIA's CEO would approve of this - if he knew.

A "lifetime" supply of free motherboards and latest Video Cards...?

This is an ULTIMATE offer a computer enthusiast just CAN'T REFUSE.

i don't think it will affect Keys at all. Some people are just *solid* ... he is human with human bias but his "fairness" has NEVER - ever - been called into question [like mine has] - what i think stinks is that someone would have the nerve to even try and "temp" him.

How can i forward this thread to NVIDIA's CEO?
-i don't think he would like this at all. it is a bad "perception" of their own company this - hopefully "outlaw" - PR group has created.

 

[sandorski]

I got an idea: If Keys gets out of line, take away the Video/CPU Mod status and make him a fulltime P&N Mod!


That hanging over him will keep him in line!!