I have confirmed voltages up to 71 V are safe

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FoxyProxy

Member
May 26, 2005
99
0
0
Meow!

I was not given the details of this clip when it was sent to me. However, a couple of
days ago, I received an e-mail from the person actually running the video camera.
He basically confirmed my analysis of the switch operation and a few other details.

Based on what I do know about the equipment in the video, what I see, and now what
has been reported to me first hand, I offer the following info:

The video was taken at Eldorado Substation in Boulder City, NV. The file is called
Lugo because this switch and shunt reactor are on the line that goes to Lugo. This
one is clearly a 500KV (I can tell by the size) three-phase switch, probably rated at
about 2000 amps of normal current carrying capability. 500 KV refers to the phase-
to-phase voltage. Divide by 1.732 to get the phase-to-ground voltage (289 KV).

This type of switch typically is used at one end of a transmission line, in some cases in
conjunction with or instead of a circuit breaker for a variety of different configuration
reasons that vary greatly from one utility to the other. Or, it may be used to connect a
large transformer to the system.

In this case, the switch is being used to connect a special kind of transformer. The 3
single-phase transformers can be seen behind the truck. I say transformer, but as you
can see, they have leads going in, but not coming out. These are actually single winding
inductors connected from phase to ground and are commonly called "shunt reactors."
These inductors are installed to offset the capacitive effects of un-loaded transmission
lines, When a long 500 KV or 765 KV line is energized from one end, its inherent
capacitance causes an unacceptable voltage rise on the open end of the line. The
"shunt reactor" is installed to control that open-circuit voltage. Where current into the
capacitor component of the line impedance leads voltage by 90 degrees, current into
the shunt reactor lags voltage by 90 degrees. I have since learned that these shunt
reactors are rated at 33.3 MVAR each to make up a 100 MVAR bank.

The switch being opened is called a "circuit switcher." It consists of two series SF6
gas puffer interrupters (similar to a circuit breaker) and an integrated center-break
disconnect. The interrupters are to the right of the switch blades. They just look like
gray porcelain insulators. At 345 and 500 KV these types of switches typically have
two interrupters per phase in series in order to withstand the open circuit voltage
encountered when de-energizing a line or transformer. They rely on synchronized
opening of the two interrupters and voltage even distributed across the two interrupters
by "grading" devices (typically lots of series capacitors or resistors).

The way they are supposed to work is the interrupters both trip, grading capacitors or
resistors cause the open circuit voltage to split evenly across the two interrupters, the
switch blades open with no current flow, and the interrupters close as the switch
reaches the full open position. I originally titled this very BIG capacitor because that
is what unloaded transmission line looks like. The parallel wires have a huge capacitive
effect between ground and each other. On a 500KV line like this the current (leading the
voltage by 90 degrees) required to energize this capacitor is approximately 1.8 amps
per-mile of line per phase. That's 1.8 amps per phase at 289KV, or about 1.56 Mega
Vars (million volt amps reactive) per mile. However, we are actually looking at the shunt
reactor current which is inductive and lags the voltage by 90 degrees. So, I should have
said "very big inductor."

The switch operation you see in this video in my opinion is a failed attempt to interrupt
that inductive current. The failure appears to be that the far right interrupter does not
open or the grading device has failed. The voltage across the remaining open
interrupter exceeds the rating and it flashes over (you can see the first arc develop
across one interrupter). Therefore, the switch blades are left to interrupt the current (not
designed to do that) as they open. As the interrupter closes you can see the arc across
it go out. However, the arc across the switch gets as tall as a 3 story building. The arc
is extinguished only when the circuit breaker energizing the line, circuit switcher, and
reactor is opened by the operator. Because some trouble was expected on the
switch, arrangements had been made ahead of time to trip open the circuit breaker if
necessary. This is the only failure I have ever seen where the arc lasted so long and
grew so large without first going phase-to-phase or phase-to-ground taking the circuit
out of service. It just keeps growing straight up where it contacts nothing.

Since I have seen many people speculate as to the amount of current in the arc, I will
offer the actual calculations that are based on the assumption that the switch is only
interrupting the current into the shunt reactor and the second hand report I received
that this is a 100 MVAR reactor bank. Let?s look at only one phase:

33,300 KVAR divided by 289 K Volt = 115.2 amps. I was told by the person who took
the video that the current was "about 100 amps."
 

So

Lifer
Jul 2, 2001
25,923
17
81
Originally posted by: JohnCU
Originally posted by: So
Originally posted by: mobobuff
Well, the fact that it was being filmed says that they were probably expecting it to happen. Though you wouldn't think it would be good for the switch contacts. Also, why does the arc rise? Is it just because it's heating the surrounding air so it has a rising effect?

Most likely. Apparrently, the interrupters were known to be bad. (An air gap switch like that CAN't stop that kind of voltage, there has to be some sort of real breaker down the line).

what kind of breaker? or just a bigger air gap?

SF6 Gas.

Apparrently, the interrupter (I believe the part to the right of the opening switch) -- is a hollow porcelain tube filled with SF6 Gas, when the switcher is opened, the interruper springs open in less than 1/6th of a second, and then the arm swings open. Apparrently, this isn't really designed to be a breaker, but to switch loads in and out. The people were aware that the interrupter was not functioning properly, so it is unknown as to WHY exactly they did this and filmed it.
 

91TTZ

Lifer
Jan 31, 2005
14,374
1
0
Originally posted by: Mark R
i know what im talking about. I was there, it happened. im not going to try and convince you otherwise anymore.

Clearly, you don't know what you're talking about!

1000 A passing through a human body would require the generation capacity of a small power station, and would result in said human body being instantly, and explosively, incinerated.

Resistance of a human body: approx 150 O from hand to hand, or approx 50 O from one side of the chest to the other. Using I2R - with R = 50 O this would result in a power dissipation of 50 MW, which would be sufficient to cause heating so violent, it would cause living tiisue to vapourise and any water to evaporate explosively.

If the machines as you describe them produced 1 V, then the current flow through your body would have been negligable (due to the high skin resistance).


That's the internal body though, with salty water.

Skin is 100k ohms.
 

Eli

Super Moderator | Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
50,419
8
81
Originally posted by: mobobuff
Well, the fact that it was being filmed says that they were probably expecting it to happen. Though you wouldn't think it would be good for the switch contacts. Also, why does the arc rise? Is it just because it's heating the surrounding air so it has a rising effect?
It rises for the same reason the arc in a jacob ladder rises.

The air is superheated and ionized by the arc. Heat rises.

The arc follows the path of least resistance.. in this case, the rising ionized air.
 

JohnCU

Banned
Dec 9, 2000
16,528
4
0
Originally posted by: FoxyProxy
Meow!

I was not given the details of this clip when it was sent to me. However, a couple of
days ago, I received an e-mail from the person actually running the video camera.
He basically confirmed my analysis of the switch operation and a few other details.

Based on what I do know about the equipment in the video, what I see, and now what
has been reported to me first hand, I offer the following info:

The video was taken at Eldorado Substation in Boulder City, NV. The file is called
Lugo because this switch and shunt reactor are on the line that goes to Lugo. This
one is clearly a 500KV (I can tell by the size) three-phase switch, probably rated at
about 2000 amps of normal current carrying capability. 500 KV refers to the phase-
to-phase voltage. Divide by 1.732 to get the phase-to-ground voltage (289 KV).

This type of switch typically is used at one end of a transmission line, in some cases in
conjunction with or instead of a circuit breaker for a variety of different configuration
reasons that vary greatly from one utility to the other. Or, it may be used to connect a
large transformer to the system.

In this case, the switch is being used to connect a special kind of transformer. The 3
single-phase transformers can be seen behind the truck. I say transformer, but as you
can see, they have leads going in, but not coming out. These are actually single winding
inductors connected from phase to ground and are commonly called "shunt reactors."
These inductors are installed to offset the capacitive effects of un-loaded transmission
lines, When a long 500 KV or 765 KV line is energized from one end, its inherent
capacitance causes an unacceptable voltage rise on the open end of the line. The
"shunt reactor" is installed to control that open-circuit voltage. Where current into the
capacitor component of the line impedance leads voltage by 90 degrees, current into
the shunt reactor lags voltage by 90 degrees. I have since learned that these shunt
reactors are rated at 33.3 MVAR each to make up a 100 MVAR bank.

The switch being opened is called a "circuit switcher." It consists of two series SF6
gas puffer interrupters (similar to a circuit breaker) and an integrated center-break
disconnect. The interrupters are to the right of the switch blades. They just look like
gray porcelain insulators. At 345 and 500 KV these types of switches typically have
two interrupters per phase in series in order to withstand the open circuit voltage
encountered when de-energizing a line or transformer. They rely on synchronized
opening of the two interrupters and voltage even distributed across the two interrupters
by "grading" devices (typically lots of series capacitors or resistors).

The way they are supposed to work is the interrupters both trip, grading capacitors or
resistors cause the open circuit voltage to split evenly across the two interrupters, the
switch blades open with no current flow, and the interrupters close as the switch
reaches the full open position. I originally titled this very BIG capacitor because that
is what unloaded transmission line looks like. The parallel wires have a huge capacitive
effect between ground and each other. On a 500KV line like this the current (leading the
voltage by 90 degrees) required to energize this capacitor is approximately 1.8 amps
per-mile of line per phase. That's 1.8 amps per phase at 289KV, or about 1.56 Mega
Vars (million volt amps reactive) per mile. However, we are actually looking at the shunt
reactor current which is inductive and lags the voltage by 90 degrees. So, I should have
said "very big inductor."

The switch operation you see in this video in my opinion is a failed attempt to interrupt
that inductive current. The failure appears to be that the far right interrupter does not
open or the grading device has failed. The voltage across the remaining open
interrupter exceeds the rating and it flashes over (you can see the first arc develop
across one interrupter). Therefore, the switch blades are left to interrupt the current (not
designed to do that) as they open. As the interrupter closes you can see the arc across
it go out. However, the arc across the switch gets as tall as a 3 story building. The arc
is extinguished only when the circuit breaker energizing the line, circuit switcher, and
reactor is opened by the operator. Because some trouble was expected on the
switch, arrangements had been made ahead of time to trip open the circuit breaker if
necessary. This is the only failure I have ever seen where the arc lasted so long and
grew so large without first going phase-to-phase or phase-to-ground taking the circuit
out of service. It just keeps growing straight up where it contacts nothing.

Since I have seen many people speculate as to the amount of current in the arc, I will
offer the actual calculations that are based on the assumption that the switch is only
interrupting the current into the shunt reactor and the second hand report I received
that this is a 100 MVAR reactor bank. Let?s look at only one phase:

33,300 KVAR divided by 289 K Volt = 115.2 amps. I was told by the person who took
the video that the current was "about 100 amps."

damn, you are learned.


 

JohnCU

Banned
Dec 9, 2000
16,528
4
0
Originally posted by: FoxyProxy
Since I have seen many people speculate as to the amount of current in the arc, I will
offer the actual calculations that are based on the assumption that the switch is only
interrupting the current into the shunt reactor and the second hand report I received
that this is a 100 MVAR reactor bank. Let?s look at only one phase:

33,300 KVAR divided by 289 K Volt = 115.2 amps. I was told by the person who took
the video that the current was "about 100 amps."

one thing, though, isn't current = voltage / impedance, aren't you dividing the reactance part of the impedance by the voltage?
 

mobobuff

Lifer
Apr 5, 2004
11,099
1
81
Originally posted by: So
Originally posted by: JohnCU
Originally posted by: FoxyProxy
Meow!

damn, you are learned.

Puts my humble explanation to shame in descriptiveness.

You can feel a little better knowing that it's from here. But still it was a great find on FoxyProxy's part. The formatted text screams paste, though.
 

So

Lifer
Jul 2, 2001
25,923
17
81
Originally posted by: mobobuff
Originally posted by: So
Originally posted by: JohnCU
Originally posted by: FoxyProxy
Meow!

damn, you are learned.

Puts my humble explanation to shame in descriptiveness.

You can feel a little better knowing that it's from here. But still it was a great find on FoxyProxy's part. The formatted text screams paste, though.

Oh. :beer:

Thank you mobobuff.
 

keldysh

Senior member
Apr 16, 2005
241
0
0
Good find! If that was only 100 amps of free electricity, I'd hate to see 1000!

You have unless you never see lightning.

Now lightning is spark but that is topic for another discussion.
 

AlienCraft

Lifer
Nov 23, 2002
10,539
0
0
Originally posted by: scorpmatt
Originally posted by: JohnCU
Originally posted by: scorpmatt
Originally posted by: JohnCU
Originally posted by: scorpmatt
Originally posted by: JohnCU
Originally posted by: mobobuff
Kirchoff's 1st Law states that the current flowing into a junction in a circuit (or node) must equal the current flowing out of the junction. This law is a direct consequence of the conservation of charge. Since no charge can be lost in the junction, any charge that flows in must ultimately flow out. Kirchoff's 1st Law can be remembered as the rule that uses nodes to study the flow of current around a circuit.

Kirchoff's 2nd Law states that for any closed loop path around a circuit the sum of the voltage gains and voltage drops equals zero. In the circuit shown, there is a voltage gain for each electron traveling through the voltage source (symbolized by ) and a voltage drop across the resistor ( iR).

the 1st law states why you can't put yourself in series with 1000 amps and survive.

it states that as long as the current goes through w/out change, it doesn't break the law. :D

the 1000A would have gone through you, and you would have died.

it did go through me, one way.

give me the exact scenario you were in.

I was placed between two machines. one machine sent out 1000A @ 1V through a wire that I was holding onto, my other hand held another wire hooked to the other machine that recieved 1000A @ 1V.
Volts AC or Volts DC ? Wasn't specified in your scenario.

 

So

Lifer
Jul 2, 2001
25,923
17
81
Originally posted by: AlienCraft
Originally posted by: scorpmatt
Originally posted by: JohnCU
Originally posted by: scorpmatt
Originally posted by: JohnCU
Originally posted by: scorpmatt
Originally posted by: JohnCU
Originally posted by: mobobuff
Kirchoff's 1st Law states that the current flowing into a junction in a circuit (or node) must equal the current flowing out of the junction. This law is a direct consequence of the conservation of charge. Since no charge can be lost in the junction, any charge that flows in must ultimately flow out. Kirchoff's 1st Law can be remembered as the rule that uses nodes to study the flow of current around a circuit.

Kirchoff's 2nd Law states that for any closed loop path around a circuit the sum of the voltage gains and voltage drops equals zero. In the circuit shown, there is a voltage gain for each electron traveling through the voltage source (symbolized by ) and a voltage drop across the resistor ( iR).

the 1st law states why you can't put yourself in series with 1000 amps and survive.

it states that as long as the current goes through w/out change, it doesn't break the law. :D

the 1000A would have gone through you, and you would have died.

it did go through me, one way.

give me the exact scenario you were in.

I was placed between two machines. one machine sent out 1000A @ 1V through a wire that I was holding onto, my other hand held another wire hooked to the other machine that recieved 1000A @ 1V.
Volts AC or Volts DC ? Wasn't specified in your scenario.

AC, frequency = 0Hz ;)
 

mobobuff

Lifer
Apr 5, 2004
11,099
1
81
Originally posted by: So

Oh. :beer:

Thank you mobobuff.

No problem ! :beer:


Originally posted by: keldysh
Good find! If that was only 100 amps of free electricity, I'd hate to see 1000!

You have unless you never see lightning.

Now lightning is spark but that is topic for another discussion.

Ah, didn't even think about that. :D A discharge so strong it creates a sonic boom!
 

keldysh

Senior member
Apr 16, 2005
241
0
0
This happen when arc which is conductive like wire, move across phase. Boom! Light go off for lot of people for short time. When this happen at night bright green flash can be seen for mile away due to burning copper.
 

mobobuff

Lifer
Apr 5, 2004
11,099
1
81
Originally posted by: keldysh
This happen when arc which is conductive like wire, move across phase. Boom! Light go off for lot of people for short time. When this happen at night bright green flash can be seen for mile away due to burning copper.

Whoa! All three of them arced on that one. :Q
 

So

Lifer
Jul 2, 2001
25,923
17
81
Originally posted by: keldysh
This happen when arc which is conductive like wire, move across phase. Boom! Light go off for lot of people for short time. When this happen at night bright green flash can be seen for mile away due to burning copper.

N/M
 

JohnCU

Banned
Dec 9, 2000
16,528
4
0
Originally posted by: stan394
Originally posted by: So
Originally posted by: stan394
did you gain special power now?

Only when on Best Video Card Planet!
/
:D
/ /--/
/ /
/\


perhaps he needs a jolt of more than 71V... hm....

haha, i'm fine, maybe a little dumber. still trying to figure out the calculations of the arc current in the above movie... he divided the reactance by voltage... :confused:


derrrrr, reactive power is in Vars, he did p/v = i.
 

So

Lifer
Jul 2, 2001
25,923
17
81
Originally posted by: mobobuff
Originally posted by: keldysh
This happen when arc which is conductive like wire, move across phase. Boom! Light go off for lot of people for short time. When this happen at night bright green flash can be seen for mile away due to burning copper.

Whoa! All three of them arced on that one. :Q

The reason being, only one interrupter had a problem in the first movie, so the other two got interrupted normally.
 

mobobuff

Lifer
Apr 5, 2004
11,099
1
81
Originally posted by: So
Originally posted by: mobobuff
Originally posted by: keldysh
This happen when arc which is conductive like wire, move across phase. Boom! Light go off for lot of people for short time. When this happen at night bright green flash can be seen for mile away due to burning copper.

Whoa! All three of them arced on that one. :Q

The reason being, only one interrupter had a problem in the first movie, so the other two got interrupted normally.

Ah, good point. It doesn't look like we even see the interrupters in that one.
 

So

Lifer
Jul 2, 2001
25,923
17
81
Well, I'm not nearly experienced enough to tell (just an intern, but I've passed it along to REAL substation engineers) -- but it probably doesn't have an interruper -- it might have a plain SF6 (or oldier -- oil based, I think) breaker on a pad just below and out of frame that trips it.