I have a question for all American ATOTer's

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: Placer14
Honestly...I feel a lot of Americans are naive concerning global issues unless it's broadcast on television. It's kinda sad, but I notice it even in myself. And it's bad to say, but I try to keep outside of politics if i can. And I try not to speak for too many people, but Americans are really the only people too wrapped up in their own lives to care. And I think the security of America has brought them to that point.

yes, but then again, i doubt there are very many countries where the majority of people have an in depth knowledge of what's going on outside of their own country, if it isn't in some form of news media. of course, i could be wrong, since i don't live in other countries.

frankly, i think this whole "americans are self-centered" thing is just a mantra perpetuated by some people in other countries that are just pissed off at the fact that the world superpower will always get more attention than some other country. not to say it isn't true, but frankly, i don't see people from other countries doing any better in this regard.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Quote

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Lastly, september 11 is indeed an extremely sad date. As you all know it is the day of the WTC tragedy. But as you may not know, it is also the day the CIA orchestrated the death of the chilean president (who was putting the country back on track, which endangered US interests), and put the general Pinochet to power, sending the country to endless years of dictatorship, tortures, assasinations, and pretty much sending the country down the drain.
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Prove it

From the sound of the name ElDonAntonio and the tenor of ur post, i'm going to assume ur from South America. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. You obviously have an agenda and your complaint is that the US didn't act in the best interest of your country. You name 1 specific incident and claim that is the final answer. How ludicrous.

Your telling me that the US involvement (whether true or untrue) in the assasination of ONE chilean leader determined the course of history for that country?? you mean to tell me that the PEOPLE of chile have NO RESPONSIBILITY WHATSOEVER?? i never realized that ALL Chileans were children and that they were incapable of running their own government.

This is the typical 3rd world response to anything the US does. If the US provides any aid, does anything to help that country it's assumed and forgotten. After all, the US owes it to all the poor countries of the world to help. IF however, the US makes ONE SINGLE mistake, that mistake is all of a sudden responsible for ALL of that countries misfortunes. Anything bad happens "it's all because of the US". When are you going to start taking responsibility for your own countries. I hear that sometimes from South Koreans too. Oh the US kept us from growing the way Japan did because they wanted us to be a buffer zone from communism, BUT the majority of Koreans don't feel that NOR do they let that HOLD them back.

South Korea has enjoyed reasonable economic growth and is no longer a 3rd world country. You look at where South Korea has come from and how much they've grown over the last 50 years or so, No one else has any room to bitch. All other countries are capable of such, IF the people took and interest in their own country.

and believe me, US has been more involved (positive and negative) in Korean politics more than in most other countries.

 

[Red Dawn]

Also, the average american does not seem to know much about anything besides the USA

Well that's because you think the Average American is an ATOT Dweeb which is false. What makes you think that the Average European knows more about the world than the Average American? Because of some of the nonsense that is posted here? Hey this place is just a sounding board. I bet most of those who say " Screw the world, we are going to bomb Iraq into oblivion" are just posting out of frustration or even better, to upset and mock the Euro's like Czar who only seems to post and comment contrary to American interests. If they really had to make the decision they would be more thoughtful. Why do you think there is such a debate here about how we are going to go about toppling Hussien or whether we even should?

Your generalizations are extremely simplistic and show that it is you who have a lack of knowledge about Americans in general.

 

[thraxes]

Nice post DonAntonio!

I don't really care about all this "Our land is holier than thoughs" crap...
The EU and the US each have their faults and their merits. Some are due to the mentality of the people that run the places sitting better with ones opinion and some are more size related. But with size comes responsibility for the smaller dependant nations.

For example, nobody would disagree with the fact that both US and EU are VERY protective of their agricultural industries, heavy industries etc. giving the small competitors a tough time with huge subsidies for these sectors that would otherwise cease to function in the US or EU.

Also the notion that the US government is all bought and paid for by big business isn't new, and guess what: so are EU governments.

In regards to Oil... each party wants to secure its share of black gold, thats why the EU is on goody goody terms with Russia with their huge oil reserves, even though they have had crackdowns on the "free" press and don't have a favorable human rights record in regards to their prison system... but who cares, as long as I can execise my right as a german citizen to scream down the Autobahn with 100+MPH consuming 15 litres or more per 100 kms its all peachy (at least until there is a viable option to do that without all the fuss of polluting the atmosphere). Same principle applies to a US citizen.

Now I feel sorry for the 3rd world, I really do, I used to live in a 3rd world country. But all these anti globalizationists and "anti american imperialismists" (i hope thats spellt right) have to realize it has nothing to do with the US, the EU or whoever else that some tiny country in Africa is going down the $hitter, as long as there is a government in place that lives and breathes of corruption, next to no company will go near the place unless it is for rare ressources (which don't last forever anyway). It is up to the people of that country to do something about it, not the rest of the world. The US had to fight for its freedome, most of europe had to learn the virtue of civil rights the hard way, so did japan... See where I am getting at: The people either have to change the place themselves or have to be traumatized to be able to change it.

The days of the CIA toppling democratic governments and imposing dictators hopefully ended with the cold war although I still would trust G.W. and his hawks to try and pull something like that off if there are Al-Qaida members in that government

 

[SuperCyrix]

those anti-Am shz really pisses me off, if my finger wasn't bleeding so uncontrollably right now i givem both middle fingers.
We should just fvck the rest of the world and let everyone take care of themselves. We won't take their oil, and we also won't give anymore money to the ingrates. If they're starving, don't come crying to us. If there's another natural disaster, don't look at us. If your country get invaded, tough luck. If you don't like terrorist, hey they're all your problem now. Maybe thats the kind of attitude we need for the rest of the world to stop acting like pricks.

 

[Red Dawn]

those anti-Am shz really pisses me off, if my finger wasn't bleeding so uncontrollably right now i givem both middle fingers.
We should just fvck the rest of the world and let everyone take care of themselves. We won't take their oil, and we also won't give anymore money to the ingrates. If they're starving, don't come crying to us. If there's another natural disaster, don't look at us. If your country get invaded, tough luck. If you don't like terrorist, hey they're all your problem now. Maybe thats the kind of attitude we need for the rest of the world to stop acting like pricks.

.

On second thought, ignore my earlier post, obviously I was wrong

 

[PlatinumGold]

Now I feel sorry for the 3rd world, I really do, I used to live in a 3rd world country. But all these anti globalizationists and "anti american imperialismists" (i hope thats spellt right) have to realize it has nothing to do with the US, the EU or whoever else that some tiny country in Africa is going down the $hitter, as long as there is a government in place that lives and breathes of corruption, next to no company will go near the place unless it is for rare ressources (which don't last forever anyway). It is up to the people of that country to do something about it, not the rest of the world. The US had to fight for its freedome, most of europe had to learn the virtue of civil rights the hard way, so did japan... See where I am getting at: The people either have to change the place themselves or have to be traumatized to be able to change it.

contrast this with.

But as you may not know, it is also the day the CIA orchestrated the death of the chilean president (who was putting the country back on track, which endangered US interests), and put the general Pinochet to power, sending the country to endless years of dictatorship, tortures, assasinations, and pretty much sending the country down the drain.

seems to me the chilean people ARENT willing to change themselves. they just want to b!tch that the US killed their leader.

 

[ndee]

Originally posted by: guyver01

Originally posted by: FoldingMan
Does all the anti USA talk here in off topic by people from europe get you mad?

nah.. they just don't know any better... they hear their friends, neighbors, family doing it.. so they mindlessly repeat what they hear.

Where would they be without the US?

Under German rule....

Or shall we remind france about that?

and you guys are only repeating what you are hearing from your friends, neighbors, etc.

I don't want to get into an argument here cuz I know it would be endless, but America has it good points, but so does Europe and the rest of the world.

 

[ElDonAntonio]

Originally posted by: DaveSohmer

I have to agree with snapIT that the main thing that irritates the world is the US's extreme interest in "US interests" before everything else.

Who's interest are we supposed to be looking out for?

With the current world situation, when dealing with foreign politics, every country should be focused on the world's peace interests. I get sick when I hear a US senator or congressman or whoever on CNN talk about US interests when asked about the ME conflict.

The US is not trying very hard to get peace in the Middle East. That wouldn't be a "US interest". In fact, they prefer occupying Iraq because it's by far the greatest petroleum ressource in the world. I was very surprised in fact with Bush's declaration yesterday, and very relieved too.

I would asay we are not very successful at getting peace in the ME but to say that we don't want peace is just pure BS. Also I have never heard anyone say that our goal is to occupy Iraq. Even with Saddam gone wouldn't they still bre in OPEC. How exactly does that give us an advantge over their oil?

For the first part: Israel doesn't want peace right now. Why? because it would mean they don't get all the land they're hoping for. If Israel doesn't want peace, you can be sure the US doesn't want peace. Kind of reminds me when president Bush was having a blast in his Texas ranch while Israeli tanks ripped Gaza apart and made hundreds of victims. It reminds me also of the US and Israel always vetoing UN resolutions that would ease tensions and promote a world wide effort in reaching peace.
For the second part: don't tell me you're naive enough to believe that a US invasion wouldn't lead to a US exploitation of the oil. The new regime that would be in place would solely depend on US approval. So picture this: if canada has no choice than to agree when negotiating with the US, how would you treat the US government if you were part of the new Iraqi regime?

Also, the average american does not seem to know much about anything besides the USA. Combine that with extreme patriotism and it doesn't make for very good relationships with other nations. I saw a post in another thread that said if Bush's government was popular in the world, it would mean the US had become weak and feable. That's nonsense, and it doesn't help the american image.

Your opinion of Americans is just that, an opinion and a generalization. That combined with your second statement has absolutely no bearing on our re;lationship with other countries because the people who shape those relationships are neither ignorant of other countries nor extreme patriots.

What about George Bush saying that Nigeria is "a great continent"? if the head honcho is a total ignorant, it's up to a bad start. I consider Bill Clinton much more educated. But you're probably right that most of the people governing are not idiots. They're probably very patriotic, but not ignorant. The problem then falls to this: you have a population that is not very well educated in international matters, that's extremely patriotic, and you're in power. It's very easy to shape your foreign policies to favor solely your personal interests and US interests (see above).

Lastly, september 11 is indeed an extremely sad date. As you all know it is the day of the WTC tragedy. But as you may not know, it is also the day the CIA orchestrated the death of the chilean president (who was putting the country back on track, which endangered US interests), and put the general Pinochet to power, sending the country to endless years of dictatorship, tortures, assasinations, and pretty much sending the country down the drain.

Prove it

You can find a lot of litterature on the subject. If you're too lazy to go to your local bookstore to learn more about world history, you can check out google but you may get some questionable facts and opinions (hey, the internet makes it too easy). In all cases, don't ask me to buy you a book and ship it to you, just so I can prove my point.

Please do not get mad at me for my post. It is my opinion and I share it with a lot of people (for a reason). I'm interested in an intelligent and courteous debate

Why do you share it with a lot of people? Do you think it is the final word on the subject. Or are you saying that a lot of people share the same opinion? I can't tell from what you wrote here. It's a bit incoherent.

I didn't realize my last sentence was so complicated. English being my third language I think I applied the expression from another language. I meant that a lot of people share the same opinion.

 

[ElDonAntonio]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

Quote

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Lastly, september 11 is indeed an extremely sad date. As you all know it is the day of the WTC tragedy. But as you may not know, it is also the day the CIA orchestrated the death of the chilean president (who was putting the country back on track, which endangered US interests), and put the general Pinochet to power, sending the country to endless years of dictatorship, tortures, assasinations, and pretty much sending the country down the drain.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Prove it

From the sound of the name ElDonAntonio and the tenor of ur post, i'm going to assume ur from South America. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. You obviously have an agenda and your complaint is that the US didn't act in the best interest of your country. You name 1 specific incident and claim that is the final answer. How ludicrous.

Your telling me that the US involvement (whether true or untrue) in the assasination of ONE chilean leader determined the course of history for that country?? you mean to tell me that the PEOPLE of chile have NO RESPONSIBILITY WHATSOEVER?? i never realized that ALL Chileans were children and that they were incapable of running their own government.

This is the typical 3rd world response to anything the US does. If the US provides any aid, does anything to help that country it's assumed and forgotten. After all, the US owes it to all the poor countries of the world to help. IF however, the US makes ONE SINGLE mistake, that mistake is all of a sudden responsible for ALL of that countries misfortunes. Anything bad happens "it's all because of the US". When are you going to start taking responsibility for your own countries. I hear that sometimes from South Koreans too. Oh the US kept us from growing the way Japan did because they wanted us to be a buffer zone from communism, BUT the majority of Koreans don't feel that NOR do they let that HOLD them back.

South Korea has enjoyed reasonable economic growth and is no longer a 3rd world country. You look at where South Korea has come from and how much they've grown over the last 50 years or so, No one else has any room to bitch. All other countries are capable of such, IF the people took and interest in their own country.

and believe me, US has been more involved (positive and negative) in Korean politics more than in most other countries.

PlatinumGold, LOL, I'm not from south america, spain nor any latino country I'm canadian (just happen to like salsa/merengue, so it became kind of a nickname and I usually can get it on any forum/site).

I'm sorry to say it but your post is total nonsense. Chili was a country initially in a very bad economic condition. Of course, when misery takes the country, the people tend to be uneducated. So here you have president Allende that gets elected, and manages to slowly recover the economy, the education and all crucial matters for a developping country. A few years later, he's assasinated (or rather forced to commit suicide) by Pinochet's forces (directed by the CIA), and Pinochet imposes a total dictatorship on the country. In case you don't know, Pinochet's an army general, so that means the army rules the streets. I would love to see YOU get in the street of such a country yelling to a soldier "HEY YOU, I WANT MY FREEDOM, I'M REBELLING, AND I DON'T CARE THAT ANOTHER COUNTRY KILLED OUR PRESIDENT WHILE PROMOTING VALUES OF FREEDOM AND LIBERTY!!! I'M TAKING MY FATE IN MY OWN HANDS!". You'd get shot after the 2 first words.

Red Dawn, I realize I generalized a lot and I apologize. Here's why I said what I said: In canada I get to watch the american news, the canadian ones, the british, the french, the swiss and the belgium. I can tell you that there's one BIG difference in the reporting, the depth of the analysis of a situation and the historic context they give. The US news are unfortunately lagging in my opinion. Like it or not, the TV news are what educate adults the most on the world's situation (both past and present), and they have a huge effect on a population's culture and knowledge.

 

[SuperCyrix]

arrghh...takes a long time to type with one hand

ok, let me explain why some "less inform" Americans like me can be a little irratated.
You see, every day we have to pay this aweful thing call tax. Amazing, whenever we buy stuff they charge us an additional fee of 8.5%!
I know, people from other countries have em too, but our government is much better at wasting it.
8.5% tax is not too bad except once a year we have to tear off another huge chunck of our earning to pay state and federal tax.
Still, that's ok if that tax $$ is going somewhere usefull. But it seems like whenever I pay any attention to international news, 1/2 the time it's about the U.S giving out a billion dollars here to this country and then another billion dollars to that country..etc etc etc, and the other 1/2 is about those same country burning U.S flag, yelling death to America, etc etc etc.. Now all that is not too bad if I didn't have to drive through those unfixed pot-holes everyday.

 

[CPA]

Why should I care what some Frenchie has to say?

 

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: SuperCyrix
arrghh...takes a long time to type with one hand

ok, let me explain why some "less inform" Americans like me can be a little irratated.
You see, every day we have to pay this aweful thing call tax. Amazing, whenever we buy stuff they charge us an additional fee of 8.5%!
I know, people from other countries have em too, but our government is much better at wasting it.
8.5% tax is not too bad except once a year we have to tear off another huge chunck of our earning to pay state and federal tax.
Still, that's ok if that tax $$ is going somewhere usefull. But it seems like whenever I pay any attention to international news, 1/2 the time it's about the U.S giving out a billion dollars here to this country and then another billion dollars to that country..etc etc etc, and the other 1/2 is about those same country burning U.S flag, yelling death to America, etc etc etc.. Now all that is not too bad if I didn't have to drive through those unfixed pot-holes everyday.

haha, i can just picture you and your struggle to type

anyways, i think we have it pretty good as far as taxes go (i'm serious). i hate taxes as much as the next guy, but if you want to look at waste, look at all those european countries and their "social welfare" programs. that's when i really thank god i'm an american.

 

[ndee]

Originally posted by: CPA
Why should I care what some Frenchie has to say?

That's the ignorance, why America is disliked in a lot countries. It's like: "We got nukes, you don't, so we are right."

 

[ElDonAntonio]

Originally posted by: CPA
Why should I care what some Frenchie has to say?

Because you're not alone in the world, and because the "Frenchie" might be able to give you some insight on why the anti-US sentiment exists.

 

[SuperCyrix]

anyways, i think we have it pretty good as far as taxes go (i'm serious). i hate taxes as much as the next guy, but if you want to look at waste, look at all those european countries and their "social welfare" programs. that's when i really thank god i'm an american.

I guess we do have it pretty good as far as taxes go, but still, things would be better if we didn't have to piss away our cash towards people that hates us. Speaking of pissing away tax dollars, has anyone ever visited the Center for Los Angeles School District? They got about a thousand employees there judging by the size of the parking lot. And looking at the Benz, SUV, lexus, at the very worst a camry, those guys get paid pretty well. Just what exactly are they doing in there to justify this kind of spending? Heck, we all know the current crop of math books they're pimping are complete cr@p.

 

[SuperCyrix]

Did anyone see that interview with the Sadaam mistress last night? Pretty cool huh? Talk about your disfunctional family. Afterwards, they interview an Iranian woman who said she wish the U.S would do to Iran what we did in Afganistan. Hopefully, it's a sign that the next generation won't hate us as much.

 

[ElDonAntonio]

Originally posted by: gopunk

Originally posted by: SuperCyrix
arrghh...takes a long time to type with one hand

ok, let me explain why some "less inform" Americans like me can be a little irratated.
You see, every day we have to pay this aweful thing call tax. Amazing, whenever we buy stuff they charge us an additional fee of 8.5%!
I know, people from other countries have em too, but our government is much better at wasting it.
8.5% tax is not too bad except once a year we have to tear off another huge chunck of our earning to pay state and federal tax.
Still, that's ok if that tax $$ is going somewhere usefull. But it seems like whenever I pay any attention to international news, 1/2 the time it's about the U.S giving out a billion dollars here to this country and then another billion dollars to that country..etc etc etc, and the other 1/2 is about those same country burning U.S flag, yelling death to America, etc etc etc.. Now all that is not too bad if I didn't have to drive through those unfixed pot-holes everyday.

haha, i can just picture you and your struggle to type

anyways, i think we have it pretty good as far as taxes go (i'm serious). i hate taxes as much as the next guy, but if you want to look at waste, look at all those european countries and their "social welfare" programs. that's when i really thank god i'm an american.

I'll have to agree with you on this one!

 

[LaBang]

Yes, it makes me mad. Mad at conservative republicans and rightwing hardliners in our country. Europe is morally right much of the time on foreign affairs.

Anyways, I have found that on ATOT europeans are generally friendly but none the less confrontational.

 

[ElDonAntonio]

Originally posted by: LaBang
Yes, it makes me mad. Mad at conservative republicans and rightwing hardliners in our country. Europe is morally right much of the time on foreign affairs.

Anyways, I have found that on ATOT europeans are generally friendly but none the less confrontational.

Kudos LaBang, it takes a very open-minded spirit to say such things.

 

[Red Dawn]

Kudos LaBang, it takes a very open-minded spirit to say such things

Yeah right, espeicially if you agree with him. I bet you wouldn't be saying that if his opinion differed from yours.

 

[BennyD]

Originally posted by: FoldingMan
Do they forget how much American blood was spilled on European soil? That we went to fight for them twice?

of course those greasy 20 yr olds were in the war(!)

current US citezens cannot be accounted for the actions of thier relatives
thus you cannot pull the old "we saved your ass in WWII"

what was your exact role in the war?

 

[Red Dawn]

current US citezens cannot be accounted for the actions of thier relatives

Sounds like you doubt that we would help you again. BTW, some of us also were stationed over in Europe as a Deterent to the Soviet Union. I guess that doesn't count either huh Comrade?

 

[ElDonAntonio]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Kudos LaBang, it takes a very open-minded spirit to say such things

Yeah right, espeicially if you agree with him. I bet you wouldn't be saying that if his opinion differed from yours.

You're probably right that I wouldn't say it, but it would still be true (hey I'm human too). The fact is, it DOES take an open-spirit to go against one's own patriotism and admit another country may be right.

 

[PlatinumGold]

I'm sorry to say it but your post is total nonsense. Chili was a country initially in a very bad economic condition. Of course, when misery takes the country, the people tend to be uneducated. So here you have president Allende that gets elected, and manages to slowly recover the economy, the education and all crucial matters for a developping country. A few years later, he's assasinated (or rather forced to commit suicide) by Pinochet's forces (directed by the CIA), and Pinochet imposes a total dictatorship on the country. In case you don't know, Pinochet's an army general, so that means the army rules the streets. I would love to see YOU get in the street of such a country yelling to a soldier "HEY YOU, I WANT MY FREEDOM, I'M REBELLING, AND I DON'T CARE THAT ANOTHER COUNTRY KILLED OUR PRESIDENT WHILE PROMOTING VALUES OF FREEDOM AND LIBERTY!!! I'M TAKING MY FATE IN MY OWN HANDS!". You'd get shot after the 2 first words.

So your not from S. America, so what. that doesn't make most of my post nonsense.

Your obviously not familiar with Korean history over the last 45 yrs. where they started and how far they've come and how many people had to die to get them there.

Perpetual victims are perpetual victims always have been and aways will be.