I hate it how Christians attribute random events of life to "miracles."

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engineereeyore

Platinum Member
Jul 23, 2005
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Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: engineereeyore
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Kev
engineereeyore: Regarding your theory about how people need to learn and grow:

How are stillborn babies supposed to learn and grow? Aborted babies? People in remote parts of the world who never heard the "word of god"?

Are they just SOL? Or do they get a free pass to eternal glory?
IIRC (and my apologies to him if I am wrong), engineereeyore is LDS (a Mormon), so yes, that is exactly what he believes. Mormons believe that any child that does not survive until the age of 8 years automatically get a free pass to the highest heaven. They believe that everyone who does not choose the path of God during life has a second chance to choose in the afterlife. They also don't believe in hell or any form of eternal torment, and instead believe in 3 levels of heaven, of which even the lowest is a paradise compared to earth.

You are correct, I am LDS. Looks like you have everything else pretty much down, but we do actually believe in hell, but we think it's rather difficult to get to. Not impossible, but difficult. You have to be a very bad monkey. ;)

The Mormon version of hell, aka "outer darkness" or "the second death," is IMO not very comparable to the traditional fire and brimstone torment for all eternity of the rest of Christianity, and it is reserved solely for Satan and his minions and those who willfully blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

Works for me. :thumbsup:
 

Kev

Lifer
Dec 17, 2001
16,367
4
81
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Kev
What is evil? According to the bible, breaking the 10 commandments. You know, those actions that doom a person to hell for all eternity?(this is not how I define evil but for the sake of this religion discussion I think it is fine)

So if god created a person with the foreknowledge that he would be an evil person (knowing his genetic makeup/environmental conditions when being raised/all events that would occur in his life), he would be a sinner and wind up in hell... was that evil not created by god? And where is the free will for that person?

It makes more sense that it is all random chaos. How can anyone honestly believe in free will if there is a god who intervenes in ANY way whatsoever.
I can't follow your reasoning. You're making assumptions and then jumping to conclusions on that basis of those assumptions.

For one thing, I wanted your opinion of what evil is, not some half-assed Bible interpretation. If breaking one of the 10 commandments is evil that dooms a person to hell for all eternity, then why don't the Jews believe in hell?

For another, I have no more problem with the idea that God created evil than I do with the idea that God created goodness, and don't see why anyone should. All that exists exists and nothing exists that doesn't exist. Or... what is, is. Some people (I have found) have trouble reconciling the fact that the universe is perfect with the fact that it does not meet their personal opinion of what they think perfect should be, and then go blaming God about it. In a ironic twist, these people have a lot in common with those who go praising God for all those "miracles."

If you want my $0.02, instead of worrying about what other people might believe in, or how this dogma doesn't fit this observation, or whatever, just start basing your own beliefs based on what you personally witness, and stop worrying about what other people might or might not believe in.

I don't care if you wanted my opinion of what evil is. It isn't relevant in this thread about religion. I'm not going to diverge into some headache philosophical discussion on what "evil really is" - it's been done before and it's boring.

And I'm not worrying about what people might or might not believe in. I could care less if someone goes to church 3x a day their whole life. I was only expressing my view, that doesn't mean I'm worrying about what other people believe. And that's the 2nd time in this thread you've made a false assumption of me.

Of course you'll just reply again saying that you weren't referring to me when you directly quoted my message. :roll:
 

Kev

Lifer
Dec 17, 2001
16,367
4
81
Originally posted by: engineereeyore
Originally posted by: Kev
engineereeyore: Regarding your theory about how people need to learn and grow:

How are stillborn babies supposed to learn and grow? Aborted babies? People in remote parts of the world who never heard the "word of god"?

Are they just SOL? Or do they get a free pass to eternal glory?

Nope. Yes. Does that help? :)

Everyone will have the opportunity to hear the gospel, in it's fullness, and everyone will still have the opportunity to accept it or reject it.

As for children dying early, or being aborted, there is an answer to that question also. However, to understand it completely would take me some time to explain (feel free to message me if you wish for a complete explanation), but I will try to give you a shortened version. I believe we all existed prior to coming to this earth. Many believe Christ and Satan existed, but they don't think men did. Going on the assumption that we did, there are some who grew further than others in knowledge and understanding there. The only think they lacked was a body. So their life here served its purpose by giving them what they needed, a body. There are a lot of details I'm leaving out there, but that is the main idea.

That's a big assumption. Where does that come from? No offense, but it seems like it is just speculation that you came up with to try to fit your mold of what a religion should be.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: Kev
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Kev
What is evil? According to the bible, breaking the 10 commandments. You know, those actions that doom a person to hell for all eternity?(this is not how I define evil but for the sake of this religion discussion I think it is fine)

So if god created a person with the foreknowledge that he would be an evil person (knowing his genetic makeup/environmental conditions when being raised/all events that would occur in his life), he would be a sinner and wind up in hell... was that evil not created by god? And where is the free will for that person?

It makes more sense that it is all random chaos. How can anyone honestly believe in free will if there is a god who intervenes in ANY way whatsoever.
I can't follow your reasoning. You're making assumptions and then jumping to conclusions on that basis of those assumptions.

For one thing, I wanted your opinion of what evil is, not some half-assed Bible interpretation. If breaking one of the 10 commandments is evil that dooms a person to hell for all eternity, then why don't the Jews believe in hell?

For another, I have no more problem with the idea that God created evil than I do with the idea that God created goodness, and don't see why anyone should. All that exists exists and nothing exists that doesn't exist. Or... what is, is. Some people (I have found) have trouble reconciling the fact that the universe is perfect with the fact that it does not meet their personal opinion of what they think perfect should be, and then go blaming God about it. In a ironic twist, these people have a lot in common with those who go praising God for all those "miracles."

If you want my $0.02, instead of worrying about what other people might believe in, or how this dogma doesn't fit this observation, or whatever, just start basing your own beliefs based on what you personally witness, and stop worrying about what other people might or might not believe in.

I don't care if you wanted my opinion of what evil is. It isn't relevant in this thread about religion. I'm not going to diverge into some headache philosophical discussion on what "evil really is" - it's been done before and it's boring.

And I'm not worrying about what people might or might not believe in. I could care less if someone goes to church 3x a day their whole life. I was only expressing my view, that doesn't mean I'm worrying about what other people believe. And that's the 2nd time in this thread you've made a false assumption of me.

Of course you'll just reply again saying that you weren't referring to me when you directly quoted my message. :roll:
Ah, but it's okay when you attack other people for their definition of evil. I see...

Your view is tired, but you act like you just discovered it. Everyone knows that (according to traditional Christianity) God created Satan. Just like everyone knows that Adam and Eve's children committed incest. *yawn*
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: Kev
Originally posted by: engineereeyore
Originally posted by: Kev
engineereeyore: Regarding your theory about how people need to learn and grow:

How are stillborn babies supposed to learn and grow? Aborted babies? People in remote parts of the world who never heard the "word of god"?

Are they just SOL? Or do they get a free pass to eternal glory?

Nope. Yes. Does that help? :)

Everyone will have the opportunity to hear the gospel, in it's fullness, and everyone will still have the opportunity to accept it or reject it.

As for children dying early, or being aborted, there is an answer to that question also. However, to understand it completely would take me some time to explain (feel free to message me if you wish for a complete explanation), but I will try to give you a shortened version. I believe we all existed prior to coming to this earth. Many believe Christ and Satan existed, but they don't think men did. Going on the assumption that we did, there are some who grew further than others in knowledge and understanding there. The only think they lacked was a body. So their life here served its purpose by giving them what they needed, a body. There are a lot of details I'm leaving out there, but that is the main idea.

That's a big assumption. Where does that come from? No offense, but it seems like it is just speculation that you came up with to try to fit your mold of what a religion should be.
It's straight Mormonism.
 

Kev

Lifer
Dec 17, 2001
16,367
4
81
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Kev
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Kev
What is evil? According to the bible, breaking the 10 commandments. You know, those actions that doom a person to hell for all eternity?(this is not how I define evil but for the sake of this religion discussion I think it is fine)

So if god created a person with the foreknowledge that he would be an evil person (knowing his genetic makeup/environmental conditions when being raised/all events that would occur in his life), he would be a sinner and wind up in hell... was that evil not created by god? And where is the free will for that person?

It makes more sense that it is all random chaos. How can anyone honestly believe in free will if there is a god who intervenes in ANY way whatsoever.
I can't follow your reasoning. You're making assumptions and then jumping to conclusions on that basis of those assumptions.

For one thing, I wanted your opinion of what evil is, not some half-assed Bible interpretation. If breaking one of the 10 commandments is evil that dooms a person to hell for all eternity, then why don't the Jews believe in hell?

For another, I have no more problem with the idea that God created evil than I do with the idea that God created goodness, and don't see why anyone should. All that exists exists and nothing exists that doesn't exist. Or... what is, is. Some people (I have found) have trouble reconciling the fact that the universe is perfect with the fact that it does not meet their personal opinion of what they think perfect should be, and then go blaming God about it. In a ironic twist, these people have a lot in common with those who go praising God for all those "miracles."

If you want my $0.02, instead of worrying about what other people might believe in, or how this dogma doesn't fit this observation, or whatever, just start basing your own beliefs based on what you personally witness, and stop worrying about what other people might or might not believe in.

I don't care if you wanted my opinion of what evil is. It isn't relevant in this thread about religion. I'm not going to diverge into some headache philosophical discussion on what "evil really is" - it's been done before and it's boring.

And I'm not worrying about what people might or might not believe in. I could care less if someone goes to church 3x a day their whole life. I was only expressing my view, that doesn't mean I'm worrying about what other people believe. And that's the 2nd time in this thread you've made a false assumption of me.

Of course you'll just reply again saying that you weren't referring to me when you directly quoted my message. :roll:
Ah, but it's okay when you attack other people for their definition of evil. I see...

Your view is tired, but you act like you just discovered it. Everyone knows that (according to traditional Christianity) God created Satan. Just like everyone knows that Adam and Eve's children committed incest. *yawn*

I didn't attack anyone, but way to miss the point again. Arguing with you at this point is just pointless, because you keep changing the subject.
 

Kev

Lifer
Dec 17, 2001
16,367
4
81
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Kev
Originally posted by: engineereeyore
Originally posted by: Kev
engineereeyore: Regarding your theory about how people need to learn and grow:

How are stillborn babies supposed to learn and grow? Aborted babies? People in remote parts of the world who never heard the "word of god"?

Are they just SOL? Or do they get a free pass to eternal glory?

Nope. Yes. Does that help? :)

Everyone will have the opportunity to hear the gospel, in it's fullness, and everyone will still have the opportunity to accept it or reject it.

As for children dying early, or being aborted, there is an answer to that question also. However, to understand it completely would take me some time to explain (feel free to message me if you wish for a complete explanation), but I will try to give you a shortened version. I believe we all existed prior to coming to this earth. Many believe Christ and Satan existed, but they don't think men did. Going on the assumption that we did, there are some who grew further than others in knowledge and understanding there. The only think they lacked was a body. So their life here served its purpose by giving them what they needed, a body. There are a lot of details I'm leaving out there, but that is the main idea.

That's a big assumption. Where does that come from? No offense, but it seems like it is just speculation that you came up with to try to fit your mold of what a religion should be.
It's straight Mormonism.

Wow that's fantastic, the made-up beliefs that stem from baseless assumptions have a name to them. That obviously makes them true.
 

engineereeyore

Platinum Member
Jul 23, 2005
2,070
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Originally posted by: Kev

That's a big assumption. Where does that come from? No offense, but it seems like it is just speculation that you came up with to try to fit your mold of what a religion should be.

The portion about all people having an opportunity to hear the gospel comes from the Bible, I can be more specific if you require.

As for the second questions, some of the answer comes from the Bible, the rest from modern-day revelation.

And no offense taken. If no one ever had questions, we'd never have answers.
 

Kev

Lifer
Dec 17, 2001
16,367
4
81
Originally posted by: engineereeyore
Originally posted by: Kev

That's a big assumption. Where does that come from? No offense, but it seems like it is just speculation that you came up with to try to fit your mold of what a religion should be.

The portion about all people having an opportunity to hear the gospel comes from the Bible, I can be more specific if you require.

As for the second questions, some of the answer comes from the Bible, the rest from modern-day revelation.

And no offense taken. If no one ever had questions, we'd never have answers.

what is modern day revelation?
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: Kev
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Kev
Originally posted by: engineereeyore
Originally posted by: Kev
engineereeyore: Regarding your theory about how people need to learn and grow:

How are stillborn babies supposed to learn and grow? Aborted babies? People in remote parts of the world who never heard the "word of god"?

Are they just SOL? Or do they get a free pass to eternal glory?

Nope. Yes. Does that help? :)

Everyone will have the opportunity to hear the gospel, in it's fullness, and everyone will still have the opportunity to accept it or reject it.

As for children dying early, or being aborted, there is an answer to that question also. However, to understand it completely would take me some time to explain (feel free to message me if you wish for a complete explanation), but I will try to give you a shortened version. I believe we all existed prior to coming to this earth. Many believe Christ and Satan existed, but they don't think men did. Going on the assumption that we did, there are some who grew further than others in knowledge and understanding there. The only think they lacked was a body. So their life here served its purpose by giving them what they needed, a body. There are a lot of details I'm leaving out there, but that is the main idea.

That's a big assumption. Where does that come from? No offense, but it seems like it is just speculation that you came up with to try to fit your mold of what a religion should be.
It's straight Mormonism.

Wow that's fantastic, the made-up beliefs that stem from baseless assumptions have a name to them. That obviously makes them true.

Who said I believed them? :confused: You said it was assumption and speculation on his part, I clarified how it was not. Wow... who's not attacking anyone?


Originally posted by: meltdown75
*fart*
Indeed.
 

Alphathree33

Platinum Member
Dec 1, 2000
2,419
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0
This pretty much puts an end to every conceivable "God" argument there is:

Text

Unfortunately the first 1/4 of it is a bit political, but it quickly gets to the meat of the argument.

Spend 30 minutes reading it, understanding it, and then post here.
 

loic2003

Diamond Member
Sep 14, 2003
3,844
0
0
Did you see the video of the miracle when a man who had lost both legs in an horrific accident years agao suddenly woke up one day with a full pair of funtioning legs? no? neither did anyone else because miracels don't actually exist. Chance does. For every person who survived a crash/some toher terrible experience, there's 1000 who perished in a similar way. It's just the unlucky ones who 'god' seems to hate for no particular reason aren't very vocal because... well... theyr'e dead or crippled.

I don't tolerate christians/other religious folk for the same reasons most people didn't/don't tolerate the nazi movement.
 

loic2003

Diamond Member
Sep 14, 2003
3,844
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Originally posted by: engineereeyore
Originally posted by: Kev

You say satan is the source of evil, and not god. But what is the source of satan? God came first, created satan, and allows satan to exist. So then who is the ultimate source of evil?

This is one of my biggest problems with religion.

You assume that God created Satan to be an evil person. Such is your right, but is not my point of view or belief. I don't believe God created anyone to be evil, but rather gave all the choice of which to be, good or evil. Satan has every right to be evil, just as you and I do, and Satan will be punished for his crimes just as we will.

Does God allow Satan to be evil? Yes. Did God make Satan do evil things? No. There is a huge difference there. Do you allow your child to fall when he's learning to walk? Yes. Do that therefore make you responsible for him falling and any injuries he sustains in doing so? I don't think so, but maybe you care to disagree.

Tard. god is supposed to be all powerful and all knowledgable, therefore would know exactly what would happen when he created man. God knows everything, remember?

Imagine if the god up on his magic cloud there made a PC. He knows all the components, and how they all work. He knows when he powers on the computer exactly how the computer will act. Now, if he programmed the computer to, say, kill people, would it be fair for him to then torture the computer for eternity since the computer effectively performed the bad action?

So what's the answer? Is god:

a) NOT all knowledgable and not as the bible describes
or
b) an evil, vindictive cvnt who creates people, treats them like sh!t, demands in all his arrogance that we worship him, and if anyone slips up then tortures them for eternity?
no wonder religious people are so warped.

Finally: did adam and eve exist and must the old testimant be taken literally? Most christians say no. I must ask you, then, why jesus sacrificed himself for their original sin?

Could it be the bible is a crock of sh!t and you only belive it because you've been indoctrinated all your life? Hmm... I think so!
 

dyna

Senior member
Oct 20, 2006
813
61
91
We live such a short life. Would you expect to know all things about God and the universe in that time period. Many of the things in the bible are interpreted so many different ways between different denomiations. Who is correct? Free Will/Miracles/rapture/genesis etc... Probably none of them are 100% correct. Although, I personally don't think you can be at fault taking the bible literally. On your judgement day, if you told God, I believed it literally, I doubt you will be penalized for such an statement.

The apostles themselves during the time of Jesus life were doubters. They made actions very much the same way any human would. The bible doesn't portray them as perfect individuals, they were a variety of people as the posters on this board. In fact after Jesus died they went into hiding, afraid of the government, afraid for their lives, doubters in their own belief and for YEARS they had travelled with Jesus. What made them become men of such passion to go and spread the word and write scripture? Could it have been aftering witnessing Jesus's death, they saw him later raised from the dead, with the scars from the crucifixion?
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: Alphathree33
This pretty much puts an end to every conceivable "God" argument there is:

Text

Unfortunately the first 1/4 of it is a bit political, but it quickly gets to the meat of the argument.

Spend 30 minutes reading it, understanding it, and then post here.
That "article" proves nothing except that radical atheists who mix their "religion" with their politics are hate-filled pricks who like to abuse science and history to their liking.

Some people never get over the fact that they have to figure out this world for themselves, and carry their whole lives a nasty grudge over those entities they had expected to give them all the answers.
 

engineereeyore

Platinum Member
Jul 23, 2005
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Originally posted by: loic2003

Tard. god is supposed to be all powerful and all knowledgable, therefore would know exactly what would happen when he created man. God knows everything, remember?

I'm fairly confident I already confirmed that. And please, grow up. The last time I heard 'tard', it was from a 7 year old. If you want to have an adult conversation, learn to talk like one.

Imagine if the god up on his magic cloud there made a PC. He knows all the components, and how they all work. He knows when he powers on the computer exactly how the computer will act. Now, if he programmed the computer to, say, kill people, would it be fair for him to then torture the computer for eternity since the computer effectively performed the bad action?

If that was the case, I would agree with you. Since that's not the case, you have no point.

So what's the answer? Is god:

a) NOT all knowledgable and not as the bible describes
or
b) an evil, vindictive cvnt who creates people, treats them like sh!t, demands in all his arrogance that we worship him, and if anyone slips up then tortures them for eternity?
no wonder religious people are so warped.

He is option

c) All knowledgable, as the Bible describes, but in your attempt to hate God, you have made him out to be something he isn't. I see no contradiction. You on the other hand have created a contradiction for you own needs that doesn't really exist.

Finally: did adam and eve exist and must the old testimant be taken literally? Most christians say no. I must ask you, then, why jesus sacrificed himself for their original sin?

Original sin is a myth. It is not Biblically proven, nor was it even doctrine of any church until centuries after the death of Christ. We are not guilty, nor responsible, for Eve's actions. She, and she alone, must answer for her actions. She is not responsible for our actions, why should we be responsible for hers?

To answer the first question, yes, I believe what happened in the Bible to be literal. I see no reason to believe otherwise. Most people who want to pawn off miracles that happened do so by saying "they're not miracles, science simply hasn't figured out how/why they happened." What's the difference between a miracle and an event such as the flood or Moses parting the waters? Are they not one and the same type of instances? You can't confess that one could happen without admitting the other could as well. Either miraculous events never happen, regardless of what science can/can't prove, or they don't.

Could it be the bible is a crock of sh!t and you only belive it because you've been indoctrinated all your life? Hmm... I think so!

Hmm... I think not. Specifically because I have not believed these things all my life and also because I have not been taught these things all my life. Is it possible you don't accept them simply because they put a responsibility upon you that you do not wish to deal with? I would most likely go with that scenario.

EDIT: My apologies, I forgot your 'why did Christ die' question. Although I have answered this already, I will do so again. Knowing that all people would eventually sin and fall short of perfection, a plan was created to send Christ down to die for each of us, that we may overcome sin and return to him again. This plan was used to created a way for both justice and mercy to be appeased. Justice says we must be punished or penalized for violation of the laws of God, and since no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God, we are therefore isolated from him. However, Christ, being a perfect person, suffered for us. The demands of Justice were inacted upon an innocent man, thereby allowing him to extend mercy to all who would believe in him and keep his word. You can see an analogy of this in the Narnia book. Very similar concept.
 

petrek

Senior member
Apr 11, 2001
953
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I guess I'm still not sure how that invalidate the Quran. Since the Quran was based upon the same writing, it too would have the exact same characteristics. The only difference is interpretation and content, both of which were determined centuries after the death of Christ for both the Bible and the Quran.

Allow me to try to answer your confusion.

First it?s important to remember that the Bible was written over the span of 1500 years, and is made up of 66 Books penned by 40 or so men of God who came from all walks of life (Fishermen to Kings). Secondly, even though many if not most of the men that penned the Bible never actually met each other, their witness is in complete agreement with each other. Thirdly, the Bible is the only religious text that could reasonably be considered as the Word of God because of it?s historical, scientific, and prophetic accuracy (100% accurate in all matters), as well as it being the oldest religious text (as it was started in 1500BC, and as one would expect if a loving God did exist who wanted us to know Him personally, he would be the first to provide mankind with knowledge and proof of Him as Creator).

Now the honest truth of the matter on the third statement is that it is far easier for anyone who wants to reject the notion that the God of the Bible is real to find support for that rejection. I?ve learned over the years to keep searching diligently, and to not simply accept the first answers I find that addresses a historical, scientific, or prophetic statement made in the Bible. After all, if one is to go on the assumption that the Bible is real, than one also has to acknowledge that Satan is real, and if you do that, then you have to acknowledge the depth of deception that exists in this world, and that only through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth can you recognize the Truth.

You suggest that because the Koran is based off the Bible it would have the same characteristics. A phony $100 bill has the same characteristics as the real thing, but it?s NOT. It?s obvious that the Koran can?t be the word of God because while it initially copies from the Bible (which had been completed about 600 years prior), it also contradicts the Bible on the most basic and important point. The Bible clearly states the Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God, as Christ Himself states, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Trusting in Jesus Christ is the ONLY way man can be Saved. The Koran on the other hand states that Allah has no son. The city of Jerusalem is mentioned over 600 times in the Bible, and not once in the Koran, and yet both religions claim it as a Holy City. One has to be willfully blind not to recognize the obvious deception.

The second part of your statement is simply your opinion, and I disagree with it. The Old Testament was completed in 400BC and it was from the Old Testament that Jesus, the apostles, and disciples preached. Showing by way of the prophecies (and all that the prophets penned) about the Messiah, the King of the Jews, that Christ was indeed that Messiah. Many Jews rejected Christ because they didn?t recognize the two fold character of the prophecy of His coming, believing His first coming was to reign as King over them, not to die for their sins and the sins of the whole world, much in the same way most people today fail to see the two fold nature of His return (the Rapture and His second coming being clearly defined as two separate events). Jews are converted to Christianity not from the New Testament which they reject, but from the Old Testament which was completed (and interpreted accurately) in 400BC, if you are to open a Jews eyes to the fact that Jesus Christ is their Messiah, then that must be done through the Light of the Old Testament.
The content was according to Scripture established at the time it was written, as soon as epistles were penned, they were acknowledged as the Word of God ("But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ" (Galatians 1:11,12). Consider the words of Paul to the church at Thessalonia:
"For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when YE RECEIVED THE WORD OF GOD WHICH YE HEARD OF US, YE RECEIVED IT NOT AS THE WORD OF MEN, BUT AS IT IS IN TRUTH, THE WORD OF GOD, which effectually worketh also in you that believe" (1 Thessalonians 2:13).)
The interpretation was also established at the time it was written, not in all, but in part, because of the simple fact that we are not God and we are therefore not able to fully understand how some prophecies will be fulfilled. The realization of how the mark of the beast would work if it was placed in the hand or in the forehead, and how it would be used to buy and sell food (and monitor everyone who has it), wasn?t fully realized until recently with the invention of id chips the size of a grain of rice, which were the result of the invention of computers which again were only invented in this century (well last actually, now that were in 2006).

Hope that helps
Dave

As a Christian who has repented of his sins, and accepted Christ as my Saviour, there is no doubt in my mind as to His existence. As such, I don?t question the Word of God. If the Bible states something, I am bound by my own willful admission of His existence and love for me, to trust completely what He said. I might not fully understand it, I don?t always like hearing it (part of being human, we are naturally driven to think more highly of ourselves than we ought, and to rebel against His supreme authority), but I have to accept it because He is all knowing (and therefore knows what?s best for me), and I am just an man, infinitely more ignorant than He.
 

engineereeyore

Platinum Member
Jul 23, 2005
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Originally posted by: petrek
Allow me to try to answer your confusion.

First it?s important to remember that the Bible was written over the span of 1500 years, and is made up of 66 Books penned by 40 or so men of God who came from all walks of life (Fishermen to Kings). Secondly, even though many if not most of the men that penned the Bible never actually met each other, their witness is in complete agreement with each other. Thirdly, the Bible is the only religious text that could reasonably be considered as the Word of God because of it?s historical, scientific, and prophetic accuracy (100% accurate in all matters), as well as it being the oldest religious text (as it was started in 1500BC, and as one would expect if a loving God did exist who wanted us to know Him personally, he would be the first to provide mankind with knowledge and proof of Him as Creator).

Now the honest truth of the matter on the third statement is that it is far easier for anyone who wants to reject the notion that the God of the Bible is real to find support for that rejection. I?ve learned over the years to keep searching diligently, and to not simply accept the first answers I find that addresses a historical, scientific, or prophetic statement made in the Bible. After all, if one is to go on the assumption that the Bible is real, than one also has to acknowledge that Satan is real, and if you do that, then you have to acknowledge the depth of deception that exists in this world, and that only through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth can you recognize the Truth.

First off, I know the Bible, its history, and many other aspects of it. I'm not trying to be rude, but you don't have to quote it to me or give me a history of it. Secondly, you're still not answering the question. You proposed that the Quran could not be true because it was compiled, not written, after the Bible (only a small portion was written after the Bible). My question has always been, how does the difference in compilation time prove the validity of one over the other? I'm not professing to believe in the Quran, since I don't, but am merely trying to understand how the time frame proves anything?

You suggest that because the Koran is based off the Bible it would have the same characteristics. A phony $100 bill has the same characteristics as the real thing, but it?s NOT. It?s obvious that the Koran can?t be the word of God because while it initially copies from the Bible (which had been completed about 600 years prior), it also contradicts the Bible on the most basic and important point. The Bible clearly states the Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God, as Christ Himself states, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Trusting in Jesus Christ is the ONLY way man can be Saved. The Koran on the other hand states that Allah has no son. The city of Jerusalem is mentioned over 600 times in the Bible, and not once in the Koran, and yet both religions claim it as a Holy City. One has to be willfully blind not to recognize the obvious deception.

The Quran is not based off the Bible, but off the same writing that the Bible was based off. Just because the Bibles compilation was completed first does not give the Bible an ownership of those writings. My statement was very simple. They are based off the same writings, up until a point, so they should be similar, which they are. That's all I stated.

The second part of your statement is simply your opinion, and I disagree with it. The Old Testament was completed in 400BC and it was from the Old Testament that Jesus, the apostles, and disciples preached. Showing by way of the prophecies (and all that the prophets penned) about the Messiah, the King of the Jews, that Christ was indeed that Messiah. Many Jews rejected Christ because they didn?t recognize the two fold character of the prophecy of His coming, believing His first coming was to reign as King over them, not to die for their sins and the sins of the whole world, much in the same way most people today fail to see the two fold nature of His return (the Rapture and His second coming being clearly defined as two separate events). Jews are converted to Christianity not from the New Testament which they reject, but from the Old Testament which was completed (and interpreted accurately) in 400BC, if you are to open a Jews eyes to the fact that Jesus Christ is their Messiah, then that must be done through the Light of the Old Testament.
The content was according to Scripture established at the time it was written, as soon as epistles were penned, they were acknowledged as the Word of God ("But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ" (Galatians 1:11,12). Consider the words of Paul to the church at Thessalonia:
"For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when YE RECEIVED THE WORD OF GOD WHICH YE HEARD OF US, YE RECEIVED IT NOT AS THE WORD OF MEN, BUT AS IT IS IN TRUTH, THE WORD OF GOD, which effectually worketh also in you that believe" (1 Thessalonians 2:13).)
The interpretation was also established at the time it was written, not in all, but in part, because of the simple fact that we are not God and we are therefore not able to fully understand how some prophecies will be fulfilled. The realization of how the mark of the beast would work if it was placed in the hand or in the forehead, and how it would be used to buy and sell food (and monitor everyone who has it), wasn?t fully realized until recently with the invention of id chips the size of a grain of rice, which were the result of the invention of computers which again were only invented in this century (well last actually, now that were in 2006).

Hope that helps
Dave

How does that have anything to do with my statement or my opinion? There seems to have been a major communication breakdown here. I'll repeat the very simple question. How does the time of the Bibles compilation vs. the Quran compilation prove anything about their validity? Are science books today wrong because they don't agree 100% with science books from the 80's? That's my entire point. That's it. I believe in the Bible, not the Quran. So please don't try to prove to me it's true. Please just answer my question, that's all.

Oh, and the mark of the beast thing, that is purely hypothetical. You said yourself that we don't have Gods understanding and therefore don't understand how some prophecies will be fulfilled, but here you are claiming to know exactly how one will be. Are you sensing a contradiction there?

As a Christian who has repented of his sins, and accepted Christ as my Saviour, there is no doubt in my mind as to His existence. As such, I don?t question the Word of God. If the Bible states something, I am bound by my own willful admission of His existence and love for me, to trust completely what He said. I might not fully understand it, I don?t always like hearing it (part of being human, we are naturally driven to think more highly of ourselves than we ought, and to rebel against His supreme authority), but I have to accept it because He is all knowing (and therefore knows what?s best for me), and I am just an man, infinitely more ignorant than He.

There is a difference in questioning the Bible as in "this can be true" and "how can this be true". One is a question of validity and one is a question of understanding. So there is nothing wrong with questioning the Bible, so long as you're questioning it properly.

 

petrek

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Apr 11, 2001
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The Word of God plainly states that the Revelation of John should not be added to or taken away from, and there are two reasons for that. One, because it was a complete revelations, and second, because of problems with translaters at that time who favored other religious interpretations. If I am correct, the scripture you are referring to is in the Book of Revelations, though correct me if I'm wrong. Anyone with an understanding of the Bible knows that verse has nothing to do with the Bible, but with that book alone, especially since it was not the last book written that is contained in the Bible. It wasn't even the last book written by that author.

Are you suggesting that other books of the Bible were not complete revelations? Not a conclusion I would accept as reasonable.
Are you suggesting that other books of the Bible weren?t under attack? Manuscript evidence clearly shows otherwise.
Are you suggesting that because God didn?t state in other books of the Bible that he didn?t want men who are infinitely more ignorant than Him to change what He said, andthat therefore it is OK to do so? Again, not a conclusion I can conclude is reasonable.
Are you suggesting that because some scholars believe that Revelation wasn?t the last book of the Bible penned, that that necessarily makes it so? Again, not an conclusion I?d place full weight behind.
Are you suggesting that the order in which the Bible is put together now, and has been in for nearly 2000 years is coincidence, and that God had no part in the order the books were placed in? Again, not a conclusion I would come to based on how particular God is about His Word. He took care to make sure every word, and for that matter, every jot and tittle (the English equivilant of a comma, or apostrophe) was as he wanted it, where He wanted it, so I can?t accept that he would after that fact just let men go and destroy it as they willed.

Just because God didn?t repeat his warnings against tampering with His Word, or his assurances of the trustworthyness of His Word, doesn?t mean they aren?t to be heeded for every part of Scripture (so long as there is no contradiction between Scripture. If God had said in one place, that it was ok to change His Word as you wanted, and in another that it wasn't ok to do so, that's one thing, but that is CLEARLY NOT the case!). God?s Word is God?s Word, and man has no business tampering with it period.

Dave
 

yhelothar

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Dec 11, 2002
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Originally posted by: petrek
The Word of God plainly states that the Revelation of John should not be added to or taken away from, and there are two reasons for that. One, because it was a complete revelations, and second, because of problems with translaters at that time who favored other religious interpretations. If I am correct, the scripture you are referring to is in the Book of Revelations, though correct me if I'm wrong. Anyone with an understanding of the Bible knows that verse has nothing to do with the Bible, but with that book alone, especially since it was not the last book written that is contained in the Bible. It wasn't even the last book written by that author.

Are you suggesting that other books of the Bible were not complete revelations? Not a conclusion I would accept as reasonable.
Are you suggesting that other books of the Bible weren?t under attack? Manuscript evidence clearly shows otherwise.
Are you suggesting that because God didn?t state in other books of the Bible that he didn?t want men who are infinitely more ignorant than Him to change what He said, andthat therefore it is OK to do so? Again, not a conclusion I can conclude is reasonable.
Are you suggesting that because some scholars believe that Revelation wasn?t the last book of the Bible penned, that that necessarily makes it so? Again, not an conclusion I?d place full weight behind.
Are you suggesting that the order in which the Bible is put together now, and has been in for nearly 2000 years is coincidence, and that God had no part in the order the books were placed in? Again, not a conclusion I would come to based on how particular God is about His Word. He took care to make sure every word, and for that matter, every jot and tittle (the English equivilant of a comma, or apostrophe) was as he wanted it, where He wanted it, so I can?t accept that he would after that fact just let men go and destroy it as they willed.

Just because God didn?t repeat his warnings against tampering with His Word, or his assurances of the trustworthyness of His Word, doesn?t mean they aren?t to be heeded for every part of Scripture (so long as there is no contradiction between Scripture. If God had said in one place, that it was ok to change His Word as you wanted, and in another that it wasn't ok to do so, that's one thing, but that is CLEARLY NOT the case!). God?s Word is God?s Word, and man has no business tampering with it period.

Dave

God's word is God's word. But yet, it's open to interpretation and should not be taken literally. But at the same time, it's the infalliable truth.
Seems kinda contradicting doesn't it?
 

petrek

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Apr 11, 2001
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First off, I know the Bible, its history, and many other aspects of it. I'm not trying to be rude, but you don't have to quote it to me or give me a history of it. Secondly, you're still not answering the question. You proposed that the Quran could not be true because it was compiled, not written, after the Bible (only a small portion was written after the Bible). My question has always been, how does the difference in compilation time prove the validity of one over the other? I'm not professing to believe in the Quran, since I don't, but am merely trying to understand how the time frame proves anything?

Ok. The Koran was written 600 years after the Bible was completed and over 2000 years after the Bible was started. If you have one book which claims to be the Word of God, which was the first book claiming to be the Word of God when it was started, and you have another book that was written by a person claiming to be a prophet who got his start by copying some of what was written in the original book claiming to be the Word of God you have one obvious conclusion. If you have an all powerful, all knowing God who wants man to know him personally, I can guarantee you that He will not be the second one out of the starting gates on providing proof of His existance through the written language. I can also guarantee you that He wouldn't be copying from some other book , while at the same time rejecting the Truths contained therein. So since the Bible and the Koran contradict each other, and only one can be the True word of an all powerful, all knowing, loving God, I submit that the former (started over 2000 years, and completed about 600 years before the Koran), the Bible has to be the True Word of God...as the only other conclusion is that God (who is all powerful, and all knowing, and desirous of us to know him personally) let Satan write a book claiming to be the Word of God (intended to decieve us) before God had a chance to get one written.


The Quran is not based off the Bible, but off the same writing that the Bible was based off. Just because the Bibles compilation was completed first does not give the Bible an ownership of those writings. My statement was very simple. They are based off the same writings, up until a point, so they should be similar, which they are. That's all I stated.

Actually the Bible does have ownership of the Torah, the Bible is not based off the Torah, the Torah is a part of the Bible. Genesis, which is the first book of the Torah, is the very foundation of the Bible, upon which the rest of Scripture is built. So yes the Bible does have ownership of the books contained therein, especially if those books are the foundation of the Bible itself.

Dave
 

petrek

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Apr 11, 2001
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God's word is God's word. But yet, it's open to interpretation and should not be taken literally. But at the same time, it's the infalliable truth.
Seems kinda contradicting doesn't it?

God's Word is absolute, and it must be taken literally if it is going to be understood correctly, or at all for that matter (a nonliteral interpretation leads to endless confusion). The reason why there is more than one interpretation, is because we are ignorant and foolish and we do not always allow ourselves to be guided into the Truth and meaning of a passage of Scripture by the Holy Spirit, which is able to open our eyes to the Truth when we are willing to be lead.
The Word of God never contradicts itself, it only appears to contradict itself because of our ignorance. Time and again the Lord has opened my eyes to what looked like contradictions in His Word, simply because I was willing to listen. It is impossible to be a born again Christian without having had your eyes opened to the Truth by the Holy Spirit.

Dave
 

engineereeyore

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Jul 23, 2005
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Wow, you sure assume a whole lot. Let's see what you've come up with though.

Originally posted by: petrek
Are you suggesting that other books of the Bible were not complete revelations? Not a conclusion I would accept as reasonable.

I don't recall saying or insinuating anything of the sort.

Are you suggesting that other books of the Bible weren?t under attack? Manuscript evidence clearly shows otherwise.

I am well aware of how other books were under attack, both books included and books not included in the Bible. So again, I don't recall saying or insinuating anything of the sort.

Are you suggesting that because God didn?t state in other books of the Bible that he didn?t want men who are infinitely more ignorant than Him to change what He said, and that therefore it is OK to do so? Again, not a conclusion I can conclude is reasonable.

Yet again, I don't recall saying or insinuating anything of the sort.

Are you suggesting that because some scholars believe that Revelation wasn?t the last book of the Bible penned, that that necessarily makes it so? Again, not an conclusion I?d place full weight behind.

I am suggesting that the book of Revelations was not the last book. Ah, you've finally come to a correct assumption. Only took 4 tries. The fact that you are not willing to accept it or "place full weight behind" it is irrelevant. Believe it or not, it's the truth. You are making a hypothetic guess that it wasn't with not evidence within the Bible or without it to support your assumption. If you wish to maintain such a position, such is your choice. However, you have no argument against those of us who are not willing to accept that.

Are you suggesting that the order in which the Bible is put together now, and has been in for nearly 2000 years is coincidence, and that God had no part in the order the books were placed in? Again, not a conclusion I would come to based on how particular God is about His Word. He took care to make sure every word, and for that matter, every jot and tittle (the English equivilant of a comma, or apostrophe) was as he wanted it, where He wanted it, so I can?t accept that he would after that fact just let men go and destroy it as they willed.

The current "version" of the Bible was put together by committee of the church around 330ad (give or take a few years), and was infact the 4th edition created. The real question is whether or not these men 1) were inspired men of God, and 2) held the proper authority to make such a determination. If you agree with this assumption, then you better be Catholic, because that church would have the true authority passed down from Peter. Otherwise, you have a problem. I, on the otherhand, think if they were truly inspired, they'd have gotten it right the first time. If God truly was directing their work, why was some omitted and why did it take 4 editions. And don't give me the "only God knows" answer because that is just so lame. They either were inspired or they weren't. I've given you my answer. What's yours?

And by the way, whether they were or weren't has absolutely no bearing on whether the scripture contained in these book is true or is the word of God.

Just because God didn?t repeat his warnings against tampering with His Word, or his assurances of the trustworthyness of His Word, doesn?t mean they aren?t to be heeded for every part of Scripture (so long as there is no contradiction between Scripture. If God had said in one place, that it was ok to change His Word as you wanted, and in another that it wasn't ok to do so, that's one thing, but that is CLEARLY NOT the case!). God?s Word is God?s Word, and man has no business tampering with it period.

You're right, God has no business tampering with it. So those guys who put the Bible together are screwed!! I mean, what right do they have to determine which writing should and shouldn't be included in the Bible. They have no right! All the writings should have been included. All because they wanted a distinct separation between the Christian church and the Roman religion and Arianism. Pathetic.

EDIT: Sorry, one other thing to add. The first version of the Bible, divised around 200ad, did not have the Revelation of John as the last book. Matter of fact, Wisdom of Solomon was the last Book. It was not until the second version that it was moved to the last book. In version three, the book was almost not even included because they weren't sure who wrote it. Definitely inspired men.