So we can determine if you're speaking from a position of knowledge or ignorance did you watch the video? A simple yes or no will suffice.
So we can determine if you're speaking from a position of knowledge or ignorance did you watch the video? A simple yes or no will suffice.
- Apr 14, 2001
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It's pretty obvious he did not... or stopped 5 or so minutes in.
His replies are a perfect example of what making an argument from a position of ignorance sounds like.
Imagining that this is an example of overcoming oppression sounds irrational to you. I would have expected you, therefore to say something like "That doesn't make sense. She should have just quit when she realized she was being spoon fed a bunch of bigotry."
But you have provided much more words and feelings here, and you have done so to fight against an outside opinion that, in fact, this was a painful escape from oppression. I think it's worth wondering why you care so much.
I'm pretty sure he didn't either, but didn't want to keep harping on the "watch the damn video" routine without knowing for sure. His posts are very unrelated to what she actually discussed.
Jaskalas
Lifer
- Jun 23, 2004
- 36,099
- 10,422
- 136
This woman dropped false religion and picked up real faith... in humanity.
Hers is what I would see become the progressive spirit, not hatred and division.
There is a story to tell... of how to rescue others. Which I might recognize as also helping them not live or vote against their own interests.
Hers is what I would see become the progressive spirit, not hatred and division.
There is a story to tell... of how to rescue others. Which I might recognize as also helping them not live or vote against their own interests.
Having read and failed to make and sense of your post whatsoever, I confess to being baffled how you managed to rate it even as a 1 much less why you bothered to post it. Are you saying that your meaningless unsupported drivel, like vomit on a canvas, should somehow be classified as low art? I say this, of course, because one of my deepest natural assumptions, confirmed by a lifetime of rigorous analysis, is that the knee jerk natural assumptions of turds revolve around the notions that life stinks and that, also, interestingly enough, the reason for that is self-explanatory.
On the contrary, I would have thought this video would have been especially pertinent to somebody like yourself who is greeted and welcomed so often on this forum like a gay bashing Christian preaching damnation to America at the funerals of service men.
So, what then? You actually enjoy being a piece of shit? It was just about how one person chose not to be. Perhaps what you're really saying is that you feel lonely but were told that's a weakness. It's not.
Another person who would probably benefit the most but chooses to remain willfully ignorant.
NesuD
Diamond Member
- Oct 9, 1999
- 4,999
- 106
- 106
Thank you for that. I listened to the entire thing. I think her points were on mark. I will listen to it again later since i always take more away on the second and third listen. I think we all could do with a little self reflection after yesterdays dustup. This should help me get started with mine.
justoh
Diamond Member
- Jun 11, 2013
- 3,686
- 81
- 91
justoh
Diamond Member
- Jun 11, 2013
- 3,686
- 81
- 91
Just did, and learned that it was actually somehow even worse than I had expected. Not sure how to use this knowledge, except to trust my intuition even more.
NesuD
Diamond Member
- Oct 9, 1999
- 4,999
- 106
- 106
I'm thinking your missing the OPs point. It isn't really about westboro. The crazy in that bunch is a known quantity already. It is about her journey from that mindset to opening up her mind and having open and honest conversations with former adversaries and how those interactions helped her to get to where she is today. I only listened to it once and I usually take more away after listening a couple more times so forgive me if I am not hitting it directly on the mark.
justoh
Diamond Member
- Jun 11, 2013
- 3,686
- 81
- 91
- Apr 14, 2001
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NesuD
Diamond Member
- Oct 9, 1999
- 4,999
- 106
- 106
We are all flawed in some way. The acceptance that viewpoints other than those you hold may have some validity regardless of what you believe is the first step to communication. At the end of the day just talking and listening will accomplish more than all the strife that is common today. Most people instinctively want to do the right thing. Once they can drop all the baggage that locks them into a position and actually listen then the real communication starts. It's hard to give up what you've always believed when people ridicule you and tell you what a horrible person you are. It is natural to become defensive. She was fortunate that some very good individuals spoke to her from the heart and did not resort to name calling and ridicule.
mikeymikec
Lifer
- May 19, 2011
- 21,358
- 16,567
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I would be interested to see how she gets on when she tries to "pay it forward" (ie. engage with someone who needs to critically analyse their beliefs).
That's not really her point though is it. From her perspective, every person with such a problem is redeemable (seemingly). I'm not sure whether I believe it though, as I've only seen two people IIRC on this forum who have considerably changed their opinions for the better.
I wonder whether it depends on the root reason why someone holds a particular opinion. Her former opinions for example, on the surface were hate-filled and apparently very stereotypical. The root of those opinions however seemed to me that she thought she was morally right to think that way and that she was trying to educate others about how morally right her opinion was. I think if one seeks to convince others of their perspective then they're probably automatically engaging in the conversation at least a modicum more than other people: say for example someone who enjoys channelling their hate for a particular group of people, and nothing would please such a person more than cracking the skulls of that group. Or say for example, a far more common one in my opinion (at least on this forum) are people who say what they think and frankly they don't give a damn what anyone else thinks except those they agree with.
Another factor is this business of her holding these opinions since basically day 1 - IMO most people have challenged at least some of the perceptions of their youth, it's pretty much a requirement for any adult human being to balance out the apparent contradictions of an environment we don't fully understand. I think it's another matter entirely when a supposedly adult and mentally mature person develops strong and harmful opinions, because to challenge those may mean challenging the notion that they're mentally mature enough in the first place. One thing I like to say to my customers who have been scammed is that the day that you think you'll never fall for that kind of thing is when it's ripe to happen again; because life is a learning experience. Critically analyse and challenge your perceptions, because if you don't then you are either going to be extremely gullible and/or what you think is possible is going to narrow to such a degree that one day you'll be terrified to look out of your own window.
Anyway, this video has given me food for thought.
That's not really her point though is it. From her perspective, every person with such a problem is redeemable (seemingly). I'm not sure whether I believe it though, as I've only seen two people IIRC on this forum who have considerably changed their opinions for the better.
I wonder whether it depends on the root reason why someone holds a particular opinion. Her former opinions for example, on the surface were hate-filled and apparently very stereotypical. The root of those opinions however seemed to me that she thought she was morally right to think that way and that she was trying to educate others about how morally right her opinion was. I think if one seeks to convince others of their perspective then they're probably automatically engaging in the conversation at least a modicum more than other people: say for example someone who enjoys channelling their hate for a particular group of people, and nothing would please such a person more than cracking the skulls of that group. Or say for example, a far more common one in my opinion (at least on this forum) are people who say what they think and frankly they don't give a damn what anyone else thinks except those they agree with.
Another factor is this business of her holding these opinions since basically day 1 - IMO most people have challenged at least some of the perceptions of their youth, it's pretty much a requirement for any adult human being to balance out the apparent contradictions of an environment we don't fully understand. I think it's another matter entirely when a supposedly adult and mentally mature person develops strong and harmful opinions, because to challenge those may mean challenging the notion that they're mentally mature enough in the first place. One thing I like to say to my customers who have been scammed is that the day that you think you'll never fall for that kind of thing is when it's ripe to happen again; because life is a learning experience. Critically analyse and challenge your perceptions, because if you don't then you are either going to be extremely gullible and/or what you think is possible is going to narrow to such a degree that one day you'll be terrified to look out of your own window.
Anyway, this video has given me food for thought.
sandorski
No Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
- 70,825
- 6,374
- 126
It's a 2-way street. To change someone's opinion requires someone to challenge it, but it also requires the Challangee to be willing to change. People are not always willing to change their opinions, but they are not always unwilling to change them either. Some may stubbornly hold onto an opinion despite arguments against it for awhile, then come to a realization later that the opinion doesn't make as much sense as they thought. Others may hold on to their opinions into the grave. You just can't know who will change or not change. So it's always worth trying to change them, even if just for awhile.
But that is exactly what this is all about. You refer to your intuition, a gut feeling that you are right, but there is never anything to support your position if the form of logical argument. This is textbook bigotry, the unconscious assumption that some attitude you acquired, doubtless from other bigots, is actually right. The tell-tail is that you have nothing to say to support it. You just come into a thread and announce an opinion. But unsupported opinions announced as if fact isn't anything but judgmentalism. This is how people can tell a bigot and why one can't tell him much. You can't pour new tea in a cup full of old shit. The examples of people who have overcome their own bigotry are boundless and all of them will tell you that by doing so they got to a better place. Maybe you can look and see if some emotional need is being satisfied by hanging on to your opinions. Generally speaking bigotry is there to supply some sense of superiority to a person who actually unconsciously harbors some feeling of inferiority, a feeling by the way that isn't true. That fact, that there isn't a real inferiority where there is an unconscious impression that there is, accounts for why people who get over their bigotry find themselves in a better place. To learn to respect others is automatic when one starts to acquire self respect for oneself and visa versa. Good luck. To create a bigot requires violence and abuse and to recover from that will cause conscious suffering. But suffering is what brings healing. Everybody is afraid of pain, but to suffer pain is to be alive. To be numb is to be dead, a place that joy can't enter.
woolfe9998
Lifer
- Apr 8, 2013
- 16,242
- 14,244
- 136
Don't you ever tire of being a troll and a contrarian? You know that it doesn't take any brains or...anything really to just state an opinion that is opposite of whatever appears to be the prevailing view, right? The fact that people respond doesn't mean much of anything. It certainly doesn't make you important.
kage69
Lifer
- Jul 17, 2003
- 31,657
- 48,380
- 136
If only everyone were capable of that kind of introspection. She's brave, brave enough to exit her bubble and let her beliefs be challenged by reason. Hats off to her, and welcome to the humanist community lady.
Justoh, were you fondled by a guy named Ted or something? Do we need to get the doll? Seems like there is something more here than just the normal glib troll routine. Do you take the clip as anti-religion or anti-tea party?
Justoh, were you fondled by a guy named Ted or something? Do we need to get the doll? Seems like there is something more here than just the normal glib troll routine. Do you take the clip as anti-religion or anti-tea party?
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werepossum
Elite Member
- Jul 10, 2006
- 29,873
- 463
- 126
For me, "why I left the Westboro Baptist Church" is roughly equivalent to "why I stopped setting myself on fire". It does not promise great intellectual insights. If I'm searching for wisdom, I'm probably not finding it in the person who took a couple decades to recognize what literally everyone else (statistically speaking) knows from their first encounter.
sandorski
No Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
- 70,825
- 6,374
- 126
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