I found this to be a good informative read.....Things some people were not taught in school......

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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This is instructive/must read.
(any Civil War reenactors [Conferderate] in the house?)

***

From someone who teaches AP US History:
If you are confused as to why so many Americans are defending the confederate flag, monuments, and statues right now, I put together a quick Q&A, with questions from a hypothetical person with misconceptions and answers from my perspective as an AP U.S. History Teacher:
Q: What did the Confederacy stand for?
A: Rather than interpreting, let's go directly to the words of the Confederacy's Vice President, Alexander Stephens. In his "Cornerstone Speech" on March 21, 1861, he stated "The Constitution... rested upon the equality of races. This was an error. Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth."
Q: But people keep saying heritage, not hate! They think the purpose of the flags and monuments are to honor confederate soldiers, right?
A: The vast majority of confederate flags flying over government buildings in the south were first put up in the 1960's during the Civil Rights Movement. So for the first hundred years after the Civil War ended, while relatives of those who fought in it were still alive, the confederate flag wasn't much of a symbol at all. But when Martin Luther King, Jr. and John Lewis were marching on Washington to get the Civil Rights Act (1964) and Voting Rights Act (1965) passed, leaders in the south felt compelled to fly confederate flags and put up monuments to honor people who had no living family members and had fought in a war that ended a century ago. Their purpose in doing this was to exhibit their displeasure with black people fighting for basic human rights that were guaranteed to them in the 14th and 15th Amendments but being withheld by racist policies and practices.
Q: But if we take down confederate statues and monuments, how will we teach about and remember the past?
A: Monuments and statues pose little educational relevance, whereas museums, the rightful place for Confederate paraphernalia, can provide more educational opportunities for citizens to learn about our country's history. The Civil War is important to learn about, and will always loom large in social studies curriculum. Removing monuments from public places and putting them in museums also allows us to avoid celebrating and honoring people who believed that tens of millions of black Americans should be legal property.
Q: But what if the Confederate flag symbol means something different to me?
A: Individuals aren't able to change the meaning of symbols that have been defined by history. When I hang a Bucs flag outside my house, to me, the Bucs might represent the best team in the NFL, but to the outside world, they represent an awful NFL team, since they haven't won a playoff game in 18 years. I can't change that meaning for everyone who drives by my house because it has been established for the whole world to see. If a Confederate flag stands for generic rebellion or southern pride to you, your personal interpretation forfeits any meaning once you display it publicly, as its meaning takes on the meaning it earned when a failed regime killed hundreds of thousands of Americans in an attempt to destroy America and keep black people enslaved forever.
Q: But my uncle posted a meme that said the Civil War/Confederacy was about state's rights and not slavery?
A: "A state's right to what?" - John Green
Q: Everyone is offended about everything these days. Should we take everything down that offends anyone?
A: The Confederacy literally existed to go against the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, and the idea that black people are human beings that deserve to live freely. If that doesn't upset or offend you, you are un-American.
Q: Taking these down goes against the First Amendment and freedom of speech, right?
A: No. Anyone can do whatever they want on their private property, on their social media, etc. Taking these down in public, or having private corporations like NASCAR ban them on their properties, has literally nothing to do with the Bill of Rights.
Q: How can people claim to be patriotic while supporting a flag that stood for a group of insurgent failures who tried to permanently destroy America and killed 300,000 Americans in the process?
A: No clue.
Q: So if I made a confederate flag my profile picture, or put a confederate bumper sticker on my car, what am I declaring to my friends, family, and the world?
A: That you support the Confederacy. To recap, the Confederacy stands for: slavery, white supremacy, treason, failure, and a desire to permanently destroy Selective history as it supports white supremacy.
It’s no accident that:
You learned about Helen Keller instead of W.E.B. DuBois.
You learned about the Watts and L.A. Riots, but not Tulsa or Wilmington.
You learned that George Washington’s dentures were made from wood, rather than the teeth from slaves.
You learned about black ghettos, but not about Black Wall Street.
You learned about the New Deal, but not “red lining.”
You learned about Tommie Smith’s fist in the air at the 1968 Olympics, but not that he was sent home the next day and stripped of his medals.
You learned about “black crime,” but white criminals were never lumped together and discussed in terms of their race.
You learned about “states rights” as the cause of the Civil War, but not that slavery was mentioned 80 times in the articles of secession.
Privilege is having history rewritten so that you don’t have to acknowledge uncomfortable facts.
Racism is perpetuated by people who refuse to learn or acknowledge this reality.
You have a choice.
-Jim Golden
Copied from: Karlyn Merry
 

mistercrabby

Senior member
Mar 9, 2013
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Why do you hate America and Americans?

This is a totally non-responsive post which makes no sense. It is the very definition of a troll.

Perknose
Forum Director
 
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SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
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Why do you hate America and Americans?

What do you even mean by this? This post was all about how supporting the symbols of the groups of people that literally were traitors to America is Anti-American, and from that you take the person posting it hates America?
Please explain your logic.
 
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[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
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What do you even mean by this? This post was all about how supporting the symbols of the groups of people that literally were traitors to America is Anti-American, and from that you take the person posting it hates America?
Please explain your logic.
He's a troll, and a bad one at that.
 
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He's a troll, and a bad one at that.

Yes and yet people on here never stop responding to them which is why they come in and shit all over every thread they can.

Notice they're giving the stiff arm "Heil Hitler " salute?
Must have been black Nazis.

Well the Nazis did take just about everything short of the Swastika that made them Nazis from the US, from Eugenics, to propaganda methods, genocide, concentration camps, and yep, the Heil Hitler salute. That's something the OP is missing, is how the Nazis literally studied America for their inspiration.

In 1892, Francis Bellamy introduced the American Pledge of Allegiance, which was to be accompanied by a visually similar saluting gesture, referred to as the Bellamy salute.


Its a little more complex than that, but not much really.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
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Yes and yet people on here never stop responding to them which is why they come in and shit all over every thread they can.



Well the Nazis did take just about everything short of the Swastika that made them Nazis from the US, from Eugenics, to propaganda methods, genocide, concentration camps, and yep, the Heil Hitler salute. That's something the OP is missing, is how the Nazis literally studied America for their inspiration.




Its a little more complex than that, but not much really.


Some of the racial laws were explicitly cribbed from the US.

There's also this weird footnote to the history of the swastika, though I'm not suggesting the Nazis copied this or even knew about it, it's still funny to imagine how the commanders of this unit must have felt when the Nazis got going ("um, I guess we better change our insignia"). Darkly ironic that they were also the unit who ended up massacring former Nazi concentration camp guards.

 
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nickqt

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What do you even mean by this? This post was all about how supporting the symbols of the groups of people that literally were traitors to America is Anti-American, and from that you take the person posting it hates America?
Please explain your logic.
The person you're talking to is a white supremacist pity poet who writes victim porn.

He hates America, and is projecting it onto his enemies - Americans.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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Why do you hate America and Americans?

This is a totally non-responsive post which makes no sense. It is the very definition of a troll.

Perknose
Forum Director
The truth is....I Love this country! I do not like the country that the Republican want to live in! I was brought up to respect everybody regardless of color! To treat people with dignity -- not just the white people!
What made this country the envy of the world at one time was the immigrants who entered this country and helped build our country! Also what made this country what it once way was the people of color who served in the armed forces and contributed to our country in so many ways, in spite of the white people who thought they were better than the person of color!
You should be asking why do the Republicans hate the people of the United States?
 
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Muse

Lifer
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I personally think that the one ethnicity that the United States cannot do without, without losing it's essential character, it's soul, is the black Americans. Remove any other and we're still America. Remove the blacks and we fall flat. No, I'm not black. But I pay attention to what's gone on, what's going on. And yes, I abhor all this bullshit resistance to removing anything that eulogizes those who have endeavored to keep the blacks down in America.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
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I personally think that the one ethnicity that the United States cannot do without, without losing it's essential character, it's soul, is the black Americans. Remove any other and we're still America. Remove the blacks and we fall flat. No, I'm not black. But I pay attention to what's gone on, what's going on. And yes, I abhor all this bullshit resistance to removing anything that eulogizes those who have endeavored to keep the blacks down in America.
Trump's election and successive outrages brought us to this. They elected him to slap everyone in the face for putting a black man in office for two terms. They deserve to get slapped again in return.

But we don't have to destroy our history to do it. We can't just "start all over". That's the same sort of utopian thinking that we'd seen in Russia and China.

My problem is an inability to forgive the dyed-in-the-wool Trumpers for trying to destroy the country over the last four years. They want "respect" for electing a Pig.

They can't have it. They don't deserve it. How do you forgive all the evil shit that's happened over the last four years? You don't. But the negative-sum game leads us to pull down the entire works, and that's not a way forward.

Also, we can have all these exchanges. But what happens if Trump wins a second term? ONe has to imagine the worst. We don't need the worst.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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Trump's election and successive outrages brought us to this. They elected him to slap everyone in the face for putting a black man in office for two terms. They deserve to get slapped again in return.

But we don't have to destroy our history to do it. We can't just "start all over". That's the same sort of utopian thinking that we'd seen in Russia and China.

My problem is an inability to forgive the dyed-in-the-wool Trumpers for trying to destroy the country over the last four years. They want "respect" for electing a Pig.

They can't have it. They don't deserve it. How do you forgive all the evil shit that's happened over the last four years? You don't. But the negative-sum game leads us to pull down the entire works, and that's not a way forward.

Also, we can have all these exchanges. But what happens if Trump wins a second term? ONe has to imagine the worst. We don't need the worst.
You have heard the saying -- We are better than that??
It is very hard to forgive unless you are in a position to forgive!
Why?
Because someone like Trump and present day Republicans see things like forgiveness and working together as a sign of weakness!
It is truly their way or the highway!

I do not know how to go forward, but I am sure it has nothing to do prresntly with forgiveness!
Maybe after a Democrat is in office we can have a meaningful dialogue from a position of power!!
 
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FaaR

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Dec 28, 2007
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Notice they're giving the stiff arm "Heil Hitler " salute?
Must have been black Nazis.
Yeah. Black Nazis, in 1865. More than 2 decades before Hitler was even born. Makes sense!

You for real, man?

But what happens if Trump wins a second term? ONe has to imagine the worst. We don't need the worst.
We don't even need to imagine, we know already. "Total and complete vindication! Despite constant negative lamestream media fake news swiffian hamberder covfefe!"

He would be convinced he could do anything he wants, with total impunity. And he would, or at least try, and maybe the courts would block him at times and lawsuits too, no repercussions would harm him personally and his rabid followers would never desert him no matter what. Because owning libs >>>>>>> Merica.
 
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Mar 11, 2004
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Yeah. Black Nazis, in 1865. More than 2 decades before Hitler was even born. Makes sense!

You for real, man?


We don't even need to imagine, we know already. "Total and complete vindication! Despite constant negative lamestream media fake news swiffian hamberder covfefe!"

He would be convinced he could do anything he wants, with total impunity. And he would, or at least try, and maybe the courts would block him at times and lawsuits too, no repercussions would harm him personally and his rabid followers would never desert him no matter what. Because owning libs >>>>>>> Merica.

I think BoomerD's a bigot (won't say racist necessarily, but he has some atrociously horrible anti-immigrant opinions), but I think he's just taking the piss on that one (i.e. he's trying to make fun of how people would associate that gesture as the Heil Hitler salute, so a picture of a group of black people doing it decades before the Nazis - notable racists - did would be...odd).
 
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Some of the racial laws were explicitly cribbed from the US.

There's also this weird footnote to the history of the swastika, though I'm not suggesting the Nazis copied this or even knew about it, it's still funny to imagine how the commanders of this unit must have felt when the Nazis got going ("um, I guess we better change our insignia"). Darkly ironic that they were also the unit who ended up massacring former Nazi concentration camp guards.


I actually didn't even know about that one. Oof, they started that in 1924 (but that also probably helped them to abandon it quickly after the rise of the Nazis).

Yep. They got their concentration camp ideas from what the US did to the various native tribes (and were surprised that America was like "WTF?" when they started doing that shit - which let's remember, they started with just camps, the industrialized murder came later, the camps just made it very easy for them to make that next step which is why any concentration camp shit needs to have major "WTF?!?" response). They sent people to study America (as in literally sent Nazis to college campus to study pep rallies and shit). Eugenics was big in America in the early 20th century (the same kind, and a lot of it was due specifically to strong anti-black/white supremacist racism; "blacks aren't equal, they're not the same species; we must weed out the handicapped, gays, etc"). America's history is right up there with as dark as Nazi Germany. Which is why it shouldn't shock people that its still quite virulent in America, but also lots of Americans need to realize just how fucked up our history really is. The same way that the Nazis brainwashed Germany, is how Americans got duped in to ignoring all the horrible shit from our history and replaced it with this bizarre nationalism that's gotten a large portion of our population to worship America as the divine.
 
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FaaR

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I think he's just taking the piss on that one (i.e. he's trying to make fun of how people would associate that gesture as the Heil Hitler salute, so a picture of a group of black people doing it decades before the Nazis - notable racists - did would be...odd).
Yeah, I considered that, except referring to a group of former slaves who originated a national holiday as "black Nazis" strikes me as more than just a little disrespectful. Jokes are supposed to be funny, and I don't see any funny here.
 
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Yeah, I considered that, except referring to a group of former slaves who originated a national holiday as "black Nazis" strikes me as more than just a little disrespectful. Jokes are supposed to be funny, and I don't see any funny here.

I agree, but I know some, hell I've probably even done it, try to go for some amusing angle to stuff that can seem bizarre (which is why I tried to take the "well actually the Nazis straight up took the salute after we were doing it as part of jingoist nationalism at the turn of the 19th to 20th century" since there's a lot of people that simply don't know stuff like that). And certainly (like I pointed out) I'm not a fan of BoomerD's opinions with regards to some groups. So, he might well just be a racist/bigot or be moving in that direction more (he's older, and that seems to be something that happens...). Sadly hard to tell these days, and by that I mean sadly far too many asshole racist sons of bitches.
 
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BoomerD

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Feb 26, 2006
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Yeah. Black Nazis, in 1865. More than 2 decades before Hitler was even born. Makes sense!

You for real, man?


We don't even need to imagine, we know already. "Total and complete vindication! Despite constant negative lamestream media fake news swiffian hamberder covfefe!"

He would be convinced he could do anything he wants, with total impunity. And he would, or at least try, and maybe the courts would block him at times and lawsuits too, no repercussions would harm him personally and his rabid followers would never desert him no matter what. Because owning libs >>>>>>> Merica.

Dood...arenyou totally fucking retarded? You don't recognize "tongue in cheek" humor when you see it?

I think BoomerD's a bigot (won't say racist necessarily, but he has some atrociously horrible anti-immigrant opinions), but I think he's just taking the piss on that one (i.e. he's trying to make fun of how people would associate that gesture as the Heil Hitler salute, so a picture of a group of black people doing it decades before the Nazis - notable racists - did would be...odd).

I AM an admitted nativist...but at least you got the point I was trying to make...these days, anything that looks even a tiny bit "nazi-like" gets called out by the snowflakes who are constantly on the lookout for ANYTHING to feel offended by...
 

interchange

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It's time to give up the Confederate flag. Wish there was a redneck leader vocalizing this that isn't seen as bowing to the Dems. I've met a lot of folk who fly the flag. A lot of racism amongst them, but although I never asked specifically about it, I doubt the bulk see the flag as a racist symbol for them or appreciate that its history in use since the 60s has been specifically about race. That's ok. People can learn from their mistakes.
 

fskimospy

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Mar 10, 2006
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It's time to give up the Confederate flag. Wish there was a redneck leader vocalizing this that isn't seen as bowing to the Dems. I've met a lot of folk who fly the flag. A lot of racism amongst them, but although I never asked specifically about it, I doubt the bulk see the flag as a racist symbol for them or appreciate that its history in use since the 60s has been specifically about race. That's ok. People can learn from their mistakes.
I mean it’s use has been specifically about race since the 1860’s, not the 1960’s.
 
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1prophet

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It's time to give up the Confederate flag. Wish there was a redneck leader vocalizing this that isn't seen as bowing to the Dems. I've met a lot of folk who fly the flag. A lot of racism amongst them, but although I never asked specifically about it, I doubt the bulk see the flag as a racist symbol for them or appreciate that its history in use since the 60s has been specifically about race. That's ok. People can learn from their mistakes.

It should have been put to the museums and history books after the civil war like Nazi memorabilia after WW2,
unfortunately it has become an easy wedge for Marxists to exploit and that leads to bigger things right out of the KGB book on ideological subversion and the BLM founders are self proclaimed Marxists and they are not stopping at the confederate flag.


What they fail to realize they are just useful idiots like most other Marxist ideologues and Putin is probably enjoying every minute of it, seeing Americans destroy each other according to plan set in motion decades ago using Americans own issues like race and class disparities against them.