I figured a Micro-Stutter benchmark without user subjectivity!

[taltamir]

I devised methods for testing for it other then "look and see if you catch it". I was getting micro-stuter on a single GPU (both 8800GTS 512 and 4850) in mass effect on an E8400 OC. I tracked it down to CPU speed, and I found a way to document and test microstutter.

I used fraps to measure exact frame times, then I created another column with the formule to get the exact time to render each frame.
I copied the data only, sorted them, and then searched for exactly the same numbers shown (like, 41.32ms to render a frame)...

I found that on occasion those high ms to render a frame were preceded and succeeded by low ms. 41ms = 23FPS.
An example was
Frame 661: 10ms
frame 662: 41ms
frame 663: 15ms

frame 662 is micro stutter in action. it drops from 100fps to 23fps and then goes up to 66fps.

These btw were on 720x480 resolution, with the 4850 running at 20% utilization and the E8400 @3.6ghz @100% utilization.

This prompted me to upgrade my CPU from an E8400 @3.6ghz OC, to Q6600 @3.0ghz oc with undervolt. (I got higher OCs with over volting, but come on, huge OC with undervolt? that is just awesome!)

Anyways, I am getting off track. The point is that I think with this method it IS possible to test for micro stutter. And I think we should. I wonder if we should only look at how many ms it takes to render each frame (and look for largest ms figure), or if the time it takes to render the frames before and after it matter as well.

 

[nitromullet]

Here's to re-inventing the wheel. :beer:

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...d=31&threadid=2178762&

 

[taltamir]

I'll drink to that...
Well... lets call it spreading the word of the existence of the wheel... too many people still tell me that micro-stutter is completely subjective and unmeasurable, and there is no proof it even exists.

 

[The Odorous One]

like ripple in a psu, it's there but you don't perceive it.

I notice significant differences in smoothness between CRT and LCD. (Mitsubishi 22" 2070SB and 22" Samsung 225BW, respectively)

What I perceive as stutter on the LCD is simply not there on the CRT (100 Hz). Single or multi gpu.

I think the majority of these stutter issues are associated with LCD. Great will be the day when pixel refresh rate issues are non-existent.

The CRT is incredible in CF, no micro-stutter.

 

[thilanliyan]

Is this the same micro stutter as with SLI/XFire? Isn't it limited to multi-GPU?

 

[taltamir]

multi GPU WILL have micro stutter, it is possible to have microstutter caused by other components as well.

Multi GPU type micro stutter is... well... more constant. i could get (in theory) 10ms 40ms 10ms 40ms repeatedly with multi GPU... with a CPU based micro stutter it will be occasional spikes every few seconds instead of every other frame.

but that is actually worse since more consistent micro stutter = less consistent FPS... aka worse smoothness.

 

[shangshang]

The GPU makers seems to just want to crank out the latest stuff with a gazillion transistors but they are still so lacking in the software side of things. AMD and NV should just halt hardware engineering for a quarter and concentrate everything in drivers development. It's to a point now that when people buy a new video cards, they're playing the waiting game with drivers.

I'll give it another 1.5 years before I'll even think about any muli-gpu solution. Single GPU still is the way to go.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: The Odorous One
like ripple in a psu, it's there but you don't perceive it.

Or like a fart in the wind that you don't smell....because you're already standing neck deep in BS.....

Or like the music playing that you can't hear because you're covering your ears with your hands screaming LA LA LA LA LALAALAAAA LAAA!!!!

LOL.
:laugh:

But ya its already well documented how you can show microstutter, good to point it out though as it seems many people think microstutter is subjective when its not. Noticing it is subjective, its existence is not.

 

[CP5670]

Originally posted by: The Odorous One
like ripple in a psu, it's there but you don't perceive it.

I notice significant differences in smoothness between CRT and LCD. (Mitsubishi 22" 2070SB and 22" Samsung 225BW, respectively)

What I perceive as stutter on the LCD is simply not there on the CRT (100 Hz). Single or multi gpu.

I think the majority of these stutter issues are associated with LCD. Great will be the day when pixel refresh rate issues are non-existent.

The CRT is incredible in CF, no micro-stutter.

I have the same CRT and I can easily notice microstutter on SLI. CF uses the same rendering method and I doubt it's any different.

I know about the 60hz jerkiness on LCDs that you're referring to, but microstutter is a quite different issue and has nothing to do with monitors.

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: shangshang
The GPU makers seems to just want to crank out the latest stuff with a gazillion transistors but they are still so lacking in the software side of things. AMD and NV should just halt hardware engineering for a quarter and concentrate everything in drivers development. It's to a point now that when people buy a new video cards, they're playing the waiting game with drivers.

I'll give it another 1.5 years before I'll even think about any muli-gpu solution. Single GPU still is the way to go.

that's like saying the city should halt road construction for a year and tell all those construction workers to join the war on drugs... cops =! construction workers... Hardware engineers =! software engineers...

What they SHOULD do is focus on hiring more, better, software engineers. Maybe even at the cost of letting some hardware engineers go. Drivers vastly lag behind hardware for most companies, it stupefies me since performance is a function of both. I think AMD actually did so recently cause they have been improving at a massive rate. Software is so much cheaper to improve too...

 

[TridenT]

Never noticed this before and doubt I ever will. I almost never play a game unless I am hitting 45FPS or more. That could be why. (I choose higher FPS over quality typically) Usually I just notice network lag more than anything with the games I play. That is typically what causes the problems in my games. As in I do little micro-hops between positions. It's kind of frustrating because I can't even have digsby on at all or else I get these micro-hops in games. It's so stupid and I don't understand why. It's not like digsby uses a lot of bandwidth... (Or even uses it often!)

 

[The Odorous One]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: The Odorous One
like ripple in a psu, it's there but you don't perceive it.

Or like a fart in the wind that you don't smell....because you're already standing neck deep in BS.....

Or like the music playing that you can't hear because you're covering your ears with your hands screaming LA LA LA LA LALAALAAAA LAAA!!!!

LOL.
:laugh:

But ya its already well documented how you can show microstutter, good to point it out though as it seems many people think microstutter is subjective when its not. Noticing it is subjective, its existence is not.

Well at least I am enjoying a $300 set of stutter-free cards that sweep your $680 GTX 280 to the curb. LMAO :laugh:

Micro-stutter is not an issue if you don't perceive it huh fanboy?

You got taken to the cleaners and now will forever on this board try to justify your purchase. Incredibly pathetic :laugh:

 

[SSChevy2001]

@taltamir Your finding while considerd micro-stutter are not CPU or GPU related. They're from the texture streaming method that was used, because they came from the xbox 360. There are some ini fixes to resolve some of the stutters, but not completely.

Here's a chart I made using 3 frap captures showing the streaming data FPS drops. They were taken right in the citadel when starting to walk on the bridge. These drops happen very fast, to the point where Fraps FPS overlay doesn't show them. ( FPS overlay shows around 60fps thoughout these drops )

Mass Effect Fraps Chart

This is a problem of bad ports. Question is how many more will there be in the future?

 

[taltamir]

mmm, very interesting SSChevy, I am worried that bad ports will just enumerate. While many companies admitted they were idio... err, wrong to say PC gaming is dead, they are now adopting the strategy of "release on the console, then release a port for PC"

Oderous... yes mircostutter is not a problem if you don't perceive it, but not everyone is like you, some of us DO perceive it.

 

[shangshang]

Originally posted by: The Odorous One
like ripple in a psu, it's there but you don't perceive it.

I notice significant differences in smoothness between CRT and LCD. (Mitsubishi 22" 2070SB and 22" Samsung 225BW, respectively)

What I perceive as stutter on the LCD is simply not there on the CRT (100 Hz). Single or multi gpu.

I think the majority of these stutter issues are associated with LCD. Great will be the day when pixel refresh rate issues are non-existent.

The CRT is incredible in CF, no micro-stutter.

Micro stutter is not related to monitor refresh rate.

 

[The Odorous One]

Originally posted by: CP5670

Originally posted by: The Odorous One
like ripple in a psu, it's there but you don't perceive it.

I notice significant differences in smoothness between CRT and LCD. (Mitsubishi 22" 2070SB and 22" Samsung 225BW, respectively)

What I perceive as stutter on the LCD is simply not there on the CRT (100 Hz). Single or multi gpu.

I think the majority of these stutter issues are associated with LCD. Great will be the day when pixel refresh rate issues are non-existent.

The CRT is incredible in CF, no micro-stutter.

I have the same CRT and I can easily notice microstutter on SLI. CF uses the same rendering method and I doubt it's any different.

I know about the 60hz jerkiness on LCDs that you're referring to, but microstutter is a quite different issue and has nothing to do with monitors.

Sorry about your problems man

 

[The Odorous One]

Originally posted by: shangshang

Originally posted by: The Odorous One
like ripple in a psu, it's there but you don't perceive it.

I notice significant differences in smoothness between CRT and LCD. (Mitsubishi 22" 2070SB and 22" Samsung 225BW, respectively)

What I perceive as stutter on the LCD is simply not there on the CRT (100 Hz). Single or multi gpu.

I think the majority of these stutter issues are associated with LCD. Great will be the day when pixel refresh rate issues are non-existent.

The CRT is incredible in CF, no micro-stutter.

Micro stutter is not related to monitor refresh rate.

Maybe true but do people that report really know what they are looking at. Alot of people don't even know what a CRT is, but, I'll bet if they saw one in action, they'd forget all about micro stutter. It's simply superior especially at 100-120 Hz.

CF for me has been outstanding, smooth as glass. My 8800 GTS G92 has the stutters with everything else being equal.

 

[SSChevy2001]

@The Odorous One Micro-stutter has been proven with Fraps logs to exist. It has nothing to do with what type of monitor your using. Unless that monitor is magically adding frames, which if you find one let me know.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: The Odorous One

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: The Odorous One
like ripple in a psu, it's there but you don't perceive it.

Or like a fart in the wind that you don't smell....because you're already standing neck deep in BS.....

Or like the music playing that you can't hear because you're covering your ears with your hands screaming LA LA LA LA LALAALAAAA LAAA!!!!

LOL.
:laugh:

But ya its already well documented how you can show microstutter, good to point it out though as it seems many people think microstutter is subjective when its not. Noticing it is subjective, its existence is not.

Well at least I am enjoying a $300 set of stutter-free cards that sweep your $680 GTX 280 to the curb. LMAO :laugh:

Micro-stutter is not an issue if you don't perceive it huh fanboy?

You got taken to the cleaners and now will forever on this board try to justify your purchase. Incredibly pathetic :laugh:

Read this before posting again. Thanks.

 

[The Odorous One]

Keys, please be objective and read this thread from top to bottom. I responded in a manner that was not harassing to anyone in any way, shape, or form. Just presenting my view.

It's only when Chizow enters the thread with his mockery of me and childish behavior (trolling?) that things go to heck.

I was attacked in this thread yet I get publicly punished and Chizow comes off smelling like a rose? That is twice you have pulled that tactic on me.

That's all AT needs is a lop-sided moderator.

I don't care who starts it, all who participate are guilty. Don't let me catch the two of you fighting again, please.

-ViRGE

 

[Keysplayr]

Yeah... I would just recommend that you and Chizow just ignore each others posts. Pretend the other isn't there. Since neither of you wish to be civil toward each other, (and this is a choice btw), that would seem the most pertinent thing to do at this point in time. Good Luck.

OT: Microstutter is present in any multi GPU solution. It is even present in single GPU's although not as severe. Depends on the game, what is going on, how often scenes change and how much action is occuring. But it's always there in any given degree (minimal/severe).
CRT/LCD, AFAIK, has nothing to do with microstutter. You have Microstutter, even if you cannot perceive it. Taltamir has shown you a way to check for yourself. All you need is FRAPS to record frametimes, and check durations between frames. If you did that, you would see that you do indeed have microstutter.

If it is unnoticeable to you during gaming, that's great. But you cannot say that it does not happen with your system. It has been proven time and time again that it exists on every AFR multi GPU system from one degree to another.

 

[dadach]

im sure you would not be saying the same if nvidia was about to come out with top-dog, single-slot, dual-gpu card

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: dadach
im sure you would not be saying the same if nvidia was about to come out with top-dog, single-slot, dual-gpu card

which part of "no personal attacks" do you not understand?

 

[dadach]

so let me get this straight...i can spew an incredible ammount of BS about hardware, and when people say im not right, i can go cry to mods?

all of the sudden microstutter is this humonguos issue to people...going over 5-6 threads...i dont remember ever to be it like that, and sorry if it is a little suspicious, considering what cards are coming out...thats just my opinion of whats happening

 

[dadach]

and another question for you taltamir...why do you keep figuring the electricity costs into deciding factors for buying graphic cards...cmon fifty bucks per year???...do you really thik it is relevant through 12 months...i think its a bit stretching it, dont you?