I don't understand this "Rights at the time of conception" Deal

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: Duwelon
In my opinion, and by my own conscience given to me by God, a human is a human when it has all the DNA of a human and given a reasonable chance, will be born one. Destroying the fetus at any point for any reason when it's expected to be born and live is murder and barbaric.

You know what, that is your BELIEF, based on NOTHING but your BELIEF.

I respect that, i can even understand it.

I don't understand how some people (i hope you are not one of them) wants to dictate other peoples rights based on their BELIEFS though.

Can we agree that this need the scientific perspective and let the beliefs rest with those who believe them?

I am really trying to be diplomatic here, which isn't as easy for me as you might think.

If you want to get scientific, then a human is a human when it has all 23 pairs of chromosomes and will then grow into what that DNA says it will until each cell is dead. The left almost unanimously calls it a "fetus with no rights" and the right almost unanimously calls it a "baby with rights of a human". That's a perspective thing, sure, but one thing that is scientifically clear to me, it is 100% human after it has all the DNA of a human.

Ok, so a dead human is still a human, right? So burning that human being, who has a unique DNA is murder, buring it is murder, right?

Read my post again, a living human can be killed, a dead human... not so much, how can you not get this? It is beyond me how this can be simply overlooked?

Be honest with me, is it because of your beliefs that a dead fetus that is as brain dead as a stillborn discarded child or a born child in a car accident is MORE alive than them?

I HONESTLY don't get it, i really don't and i never will unless you stop providing sheit i alreadiy answered in my first post.

 

[preslove]

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Originally posted by: preslove
Personally, I think that anyone who calls this a human is an idiot.

Gosh your logic is so compelling, look here guys, we must have a famous deeply intellectual author on these forums!!!!

Since you edited yours: A cell of what? You're still arguing pure symantecs and calling people idiots.

Precision is not semantics. People who call precision of speech "symantecs" generally ARE idiots.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: herm0016

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: Duwelon
In my opinion, and by my own conscience given to me by God, a human is a human when it has all the DNA of a human and given a reasonable chance, will be born one. Destroying the fetus at any point for any reason when it's expected to be born and live is murder and barbaric.

I pretty much agree with you here, but I'm still torn. I understand that a lot of people don't feel that way, and I can see why the issue is up for debate. There is no way to determine when life actually begins. In my heart, I feel exactly the same as you do, however, I still support the right for others to decide for themselves.

You're not going to like this at all.

This is pure romantic bullsheit, you don't feel things in your heart, you think them in your head as you have been taught, you don't know right from wrong through instinct anymore, you know it from what you have been told.

What they have done to you, with the massive indoctrination will never be reversed, but we've danced this dance before and i KNOW that beyond that bullsheit there is common sense, you can disconnect from it at other times, whey not now?

Point blank, the shot in the heart, the answer always comes down to this, do you want to live? You can have pretty much every organ except one replaced, but brain death is death.

We all know that a brain that is not alive means that the human is not alive, so why do we scurry from this very fact, shouldn't that be as clear as daylight to anyone?

Point blank, the shot in the head, you don't transplant that, son, when you got no brain functions beyond random impulses (twitches), you're dead as dead can be.

Stun to chest, confirmed kill to head, you already know this and you already know why.

IF the literal story is true, god kills ~83% of all conceptions before they are gone to full term, add abortion and it's still rounded downwards to ~83% that is how insignificant it is, even to god.

wow... you you will claim to be the party that accepts all people, that does not discriminate against anyone, and yet...
you will attack anyone with a belief that you do not agree with, even if they acknowledge that it is their belief, and that other people can have rights that may not associate with their belief. tell me how this works, I'm interested.

Son, i'm ENGLISH and JD50 and me have had personal discussions before, stay out of it, you're not invited if you don't have anything to add to the discussion, beliefs and shit have already been handled in this thread, let's move the fuck on.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Duwelon
In my opinion, and by my own conscience given to me by God, a human is a human when it has all the DNA of a human and given a reasonable chance, will be born one. Destroying the fetus at any point for any reason when it's expected to be born and live is murder and barbaric.

Based on your disertation, there should be a license, registration, insurance and government permission to fcvk with medical and religious staff present to issue Social Security number and religious rites (such as baptism etc) on the spot.

Most of that, minus the paperwork of course, can and does already happen via the mother.

At the time of fcvking?

 

[Duwelon]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: Duwelon
In my opinion, and by my own conscience given to me by God, a human is a human when it has all the DNA of a human and given a reasonable chance, will be born one. Destroying the fetus at any point for any reason when it's expected to be born and live is murder and barbaric.

You know what, that is your BELIEF, based on NOTHING but your BELIEF.

I respect that, i can even understand it.

I don't understand how some people (i hope you are not one of them) wants to dictate other peoples rights based on their BELIEFS though.

Can we agree that this need the scientific perspective and let the beliefs rest with those who believe them?

I am really trying to be diplomatic here, which isn't as easy for me as you might think.

If you want to get scientific, then a human is a human when it has all 23 pairs of chromosomes and will then grow into what that DNA says it will until each cell is dead. The left almost unanimously calls it a "fetus with no rights" and the right almost unanimously calls it a "baby with rights of a human". That's a perspective thing, sure, but one thing that is scientifically clear to me, it is 100% human after it has all the DNA of a human.

Ok, so a dead human is still a human, right? So burning that human being, who has a unique DNA is murder, buring it is murder, right?

Read my post again, a living human can be killed, a dead human... not so much, how can you not get this? It is beyond me how this can be simply overlooked?

Be honest with me, is it because of your beliefs that a dead fetus that is as brain dead as a stillborn discarded child or a born child in a car accident is MORE alive than them?

I HONESTLY don't get it, i really don't and i never will unless you stop providing sheit i alreadiy answered in my first post.

It's perfectly clear to me that you can't murder someone that's already dead.

 

[CallMeJoe]

Originally posted by: preslove
Precision is not s[e]mantics. People who call precision of speech "symantecs" generally ARE idiots.

Idiots, perhaps, but they do have their utilities...

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: preslove

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: Duwelon
In my opinion, and by my own conscience given to me by God, a human is a human when it has all the DNA of a human and given a reasonable chance, will be born one. Destroying the fetus at any point for any reason when it's expected to be born and live is murder and barbaric.

You know what, that is your BELIEF, based on NOTHING but your BELIEF.

I respect that, i can even understand it.

I don't understand how some people (i hope you are not one of them) wants to dictate other peoples rights based on their BELIEFS though.

Can we agree that this need the scientific perspective and let the beliefs rest with those who believe them?

I am really trying to be diplomatic here, which isn't as easy for me as you might think.

If you want to get scientific, then a human is a human when it has all 23 pairs of chromosomes and will then grow into what that DNA says it will until each cell is dead. The left almost unanimously calls it a "fetus with no rights" and the right almost unanimously calls it a "baby with rights of a human". That's a perspective thing, sure, but one thing that is scientifically clear to me, it is 100% human after it has all the DNA of a human.

A zygote |= a fetus.

An embryo |= a fetus.

I'll simplify this a tad, anything brain dead == dead.

Fetus before week 25 == dead

Twats on the internet proclaiming their beliefs go against liberalism, democracy, the constitution of every country in Europe and the United States and they have NO problem doing that in ANY country and they have no problem mentioning the SAME constitution to provide THEM rights, so fucking hypocritical it makes me want to puke.

 

[Duwelon]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Duwelon
In my opinion, and by my own conscience given to me by God, a human is a human when it has all the DNA of a human and given a reasonable chance, will be born one. Destroying the fetus at any point for any reason when it's expected to be born and live is murder and barbaric.

Based on your disertation, there should be a license, registration, insurance and government permission to fcvk with medical and religious staff present to issue Social Security number and religious rites (such as baptism etc) on the spot.

Most of that, minus the paperwork of course, can and does already happen via the mother.

At the time of fcvking?

Sex != conception.

 

[herm0016]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

I'll simplify this a tad, anything brain dead == dead.

Fetus before week 25 == dead

Twats on the internet proclaiming their beliefs go against liberalism, democracy, the constitution of every country in Europe and the United States and they have NO problem doing that in ANY country and they have no problem mentioning the SAME constitution to provide THEM rights, so fucking hypocritical it makes me want to puke.

oh.. so now the point at which life begins is spelled out in the constitution? hell.. ill have to read the damn thing again now!!!

so fucking hypocritical it makes me want to puke.

 

[retrospooty]

Originally posted by: Duwelon
In my opinion, and by my own conscience given to me by God, a human is a human when it has all the DNA of a human and given a reasonable chance, will be born one. Destroying the fetus at any point for any reason when it's expected to be born and live is murder and barbaric.

While I respect your belief's and agree if You get pregnant, or get someone pregnant - YOU should not abort it... However you have no right to say that others cant do what they want with thier body's and families.

 

[winnar111]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: Duwelon
In my opinion, and by my own conscience given to me by God, a human is a human when it has all the DNA of a human and given a reasonable chance, will be born one. Destroying the fetus at any point for any reason when it's expected to be born and live is murder and barbaric.

I pretty much agree with you here, but I'm still torn. I understand that a lot of people don't feel that way, and I can see why the issue is up for debate. There is no way to determine when life actually begins. In my heart, I feel exactly the same as you do, however, I still support the right for others to decide for themselves.

I tend to agree with you.

But also, I feel this is an issue that should be left up to the states. It is ironic that the Republicans hold this over the Religious Right like a carrot, yet go overseas and murder people once they get elected.

It's not just Republicans who bang the abortion drum.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politi...0903/pl_politico/13103

ST. PAUL, Minn. ? Barack Obama has launched a broadside against John McCain?s opposition to abortion rights and moved one of the most divisive issues in modern American politics to the airwaves on a large scale for the first time in this presidential campaign.

Obama?s new radio ad, airing widely in at least seven swing states, tells voters McCain ?will make abortion illegal.? It?s airing as McCain courts female voters with the addition of the staunchly anti-abortion governor of Alaska, Sarah Palin, to his ticket.

The campaign didn?t release further details of the ad buy, but Politico readers reported that it?s airing in Florida, Virginia, Iowa, Ohio, Indiana, Wisconsin and Colorado.

Someone should ask Obama what the likelihood of any of these states making abortion illegal when South Dakota couldn't do it.

 

[Duwelon]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: preslove

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: Duwelon
In my opinion, and by my own conscience given to me by God, a human is a human when it has all the DNA of a human and given a reasonable chance, will be born one. Destroying the fetus at any point for any reason when it's expected to be born and live is murder and barbaric.

You know what, that is your BELIEF, based on NOTHING but your BELIEF.

I respect that, i can even understand it.

I don't understand how some people (i hope you are not one of them) wants to dictate other peoples rights based on their BELIEFS though.

Can we agree that this need the scientific perspective and let the beliefs rest with those who believe them?

I am really trying to be diplomatic here, which isn't as easy for me as you might think.

If you want to get scientific, then a human is a human when it has all 23 pairs of chromosomes and will then grow into what that DNA says it will until each cell is dead. The left almost unanimously calls it a "fetus with no rights" and the right almost unanimously calls it a "baby with rights of a human". That's a perspective thing, sure, but one thing that is scientifically clear to me, it is 100% human after it has all the DNA of a human.

A zygote |= a fetus.

An embryo |= a fetus.

I'll simplify this a tad, anything brain dead == dead.

Fetus before week 25 == dead

Twats on the internet proclaiming their beliefs go against liberalism, democracy, the constitution of every country in Europe and the United States and they have NO problem doing that in ANY country and they have no problem mentioning the SAME constitution to provide THEM rights, so fucking hypocritical it makes me want to puke.

The constitution has absolutely nothing to do with Roe v. Wade. The reason the liberal establishment is so worried about having Roe v. Wade overturned is because it's a bad law to begin with. Just like separation of church and state has nothing to do with the constitution, abortion was ruled as legal by the judicial branch. It's been hailed as a bad law by many not even arguing on the merits of pro-life/pro-choice.

And yet, here you are expounding your own beliefs that a fetus at 25 weeks is dead, when science will tell you that it's 1) human 2) alive and growing.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: winnar111

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: Duwelon
In my opinion, and by my own conscience given to me by God, a human is a human when it has all the DNA of a human and given a reasonable chance, will be born one. Destroying the fetus at any point for any reason when it's expected to be born and live is murder and barbaric.

I pretty much agree with you here, but I'm still torn. I understand that a lot of people don't feel that way, and I can see why the issue is up for debate. There is no way to determine when life actually begins. In my heart, I feel exactly the same as you do, however, I still support the right for others to decide for themselves.

I tend to agree with you.

But also, I feel this is an issue that should be left up to the states. It is ironic that the Republicans hold this over the Religious Right like a carrot, yet go overseas and murder people once they get elected.

It's not just Republicans who bang the abortion drum.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politi...0903/pl_politico/13103

ST. PAUL, Minn. ? Barack Obama has launched a broadside against John McCain?s opposition to abortion rights and moved one of the most divisive issues in modern American politics to the airwaves on a large scale for the first time in this presidential campaign.

Obama?s new radio ad, airing widely in at least seven swing states, tells voters McCain ?will make abortion illegal.? It?s airing as McCain courts female voters with the addition of the staunchly anti-abortion governor of Alaska, Sarah Palin, to his ticket.

The campaign didn?t release further details of the ad buy, but Politico readers reported that it?s airing in Florida, Virginia, Iowa, Ohio, Indiana, Wisconsin and Colorado.

Someone should ask Obama what the likelihood of any of these states making abortion illegal when South Dakota couldn't do it.

LOL, yes, I understand that. But I was making an analogy.

Abortion is a wedge issue. It is meant to push front-page problems back a few. It is meant to divide and divert the American people.

This shouldn't even be an issue outside of the states. The federal government has no jurisdiction here.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: CallMeJoe

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: Duwelon
In my opinion, and by my own conscience given to me by God, a human is a human when it has all the DNA of a human and given a reasonable chance, will be born one. Destroying the fetus at any point for any reason when it's expected to be born and live is murder and barbaric.

You know what, that is your BELIEF, based on NOTHING but your BELIEF.
I respect that, i can even understand it.
I don't understand how some people (i hope you are not one of them) wants to dictate other peoples rights based on their BELIEFS though.
Can we agree that this need the scientific perspective and let the beliefs rest with those who believe them?
I am really trying to be diplomatic here, which isn't as easy for me as you might think.

I've read enough of your posts to know just how hard that is for you.

As for me, when all the DNA is in place, and the cells are dividing it definitely is life, and it definitely is a potential human. Unlike some of you, however, I missed the God Whisper in my ear telling me the soul attaches at exactly that instant.

Well, ten years after i'm braindead i'll be an ACTUAL human according to your norms.

You want to store all the dead people or should your church do it?

You see, we have no problems killing animals, who are far more advanced and alive than a fetus, none what so ever, at least i don't, to be honest, i don't have a real big problem killing living human beings who are threatening my life either.

But a fetus pre week 25 is as dead as a stillborn baby, if it WILL be a stillborn baby, well you don't know, 83% not counting abortions are dead conceptions, 83% are dead counting abortions, so all these 83% are dead, around 80% of them you'd never even know made her pregnant, just flushed out during those days, 3% are those that die from there to "some kind of birth", 0.2% of all conceptions are aborted.

You don't think that it's more important to take care of the 3% that lost their babies than the 0.2% who chose to have an abortion?

Out of thes 0.2% 86% did not make the choice, so that leaves us with...

I'm done, you do the math, son.

To me, none of this shit matters, two things matter.

1. pre week 25 and you are not alive
2. a womans body is her own.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Originally posted by: preslove

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: Duwelon
In my opinion, and by my own conscience given to me by God, a human is a human when it has all the DNA of a human and given a reasonable chance, will be born one. Destroying the fetus at any point for any reason when it's expected to be born and live is murder and barbaric.

You know what, that is your BELIEF, based on NOTHING but your BELIEF.

I respect that, i can even understand it.

I don't understand how some people (i hope you are not one of them) wants to dictate other peoples rights based on their BELIEFS though.

Can we agree that this need the scientific perspective and let the beliefs rest with those who believe them?

I am really trying to be diplomatic here, which isn't as easy for me as you might think.

If you want to get scientific, then a human is a human when it has all 23 pairs of chromosomes and will then grow into what that DNA says it will until each cell is dead. The left almost unanimously calls it a "fetus with no rights" and the right almost unanimously calls it a "baby with rights of a human". That's a perspective thing, sure, but one thing that is scientifically clear to me, it is 100% human after it has all the DNA of a human.

A zygote |= a fetus.

An embryo |= a fetus.

It's pure symantics to argue about scientific terms. The fact remains that a zygote, fetus, whatever stage the human is in, it's still 100% human.

At least learn to spell "semantics" right, it's annoying the shit out of me.

 

[Duwelon]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Originally posted by: preslove

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: Duwelon
In my opinion, and by my own conscience given to me by God, a human is a human when it has all the DNA of a human and given a reasonable chance, will be born one. Destroying the fetus at any point for any reason when it's expected to be born and live is murder and barbaric.

You know what, that is your BELIEF, based on NOTHING but your BELIEF.

I respect that, i can even understand it.

I don't understand how some people (i hope you are not one of them) wants to dictate other peoples rights based on their BELIEFS though.

Can we agree that this need the scientific perspective and let the beliefs rest with those who believe them?

I am really trying to be diplomatic here, which isn't as easy for me as you might think.

If you want to get scientific, then a human is a human when it has all 23 pairs of chromosomes and will then grow into what that DNA says it will until each cell is dead. The left almost unanimously calls it a "fetus with no rights" and the right almost unanimously calls it a "baby with rights of a human". That's a perspective thing, sure, but one thing that is scientifically clear to me, it is 100% human after it has all the DNA of a human.

A zygote |= a fetus.

An embryo |= a fetus.

It's pure symantics to argue about scientific terms. The fact remains that a zygote, fetus, whatever stage the human is in, it's still 100% human.

At least learn to spell "semantics" right, it's annoying the shit out of me.

Sorry, It annoyed me typing it, I wouldn't use a symantec product on my PC if they paid me what they normally ask for their crap.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: Duwelon
In my opinion, and by my own conscience given to me by God, a human is a human when it has all the DNA of a human and given a reasonable chance, will be born one. Destroying the fetus at any point for any reason when it's expected to be born and live is murder and barbaric.

You know what, that is your BELIEF, based on NOTHING but your BELIEF.

I respect that, i can even understand it.

I don't understand how some people (i hope you are not one of them) wants to dictate other peoples rights based on their BELIEFS though.

Can we agree that this need the scientific perspective and let the beliefs rest with those who believe them?

I am really trying to be diplomatic here, which isn't as easy for me as you might think.

If you want to get scientific, then a human is a human when it has all 23 pairs of chromosomes and will then grow into what that DNA says it will until each cell is dead. The left almost unanimously calls it a "fetus with no rights" and the right almost unanimously calls it a "baby with rights of a human". That's a perspective thing, sure, but one thing that is scientifically clear to me, it is 100% human after it has all the DNA of a human.

Ok, so a dead human is still a human, right? So burning that human being, who has a unique DNA is murder, buring it is murder, right?

Read my post again, a living human can be killed, a dead human... not so much, how can you not get this? It is beyond me how this can be simply overlooked?

Be honest with me, is it because of your beliefs that a dead fetus that is as brain dead as a stillborn discarded child or a born child in a car accident is MORE alive than them?

I HONESTLY don't get it, i really don't and i never will unless you stop providing sheit i alreadiy answered in my first post.

It's perfectly clear to me that you can't murder someone that's already dead.

Ok, so a fetus that is in fact as clinically dead as any born human could ever be, is it a living human being? (a pre week 25 fetus)

 

[Throckmorton]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: mizzou
I have not yet heard a convincing argument with the "a human deserves rights at the time of conception" statement

1. Will mothers have to register their babies at first date of conception with the social security administration, and with the selective service system to ensure the gov't can recognize the human and attribute rights?

2. Will the mother be penalized for not recognizing the humans rights earlier?

3. What if you register your human early and then find out you actually have twins later on, how do you know which baby will be the first one named and registered?

4. How will the tax dept. consider the deductions of human children not yet exiting the womb? Will there be tiers of humans for tax purposes such as "Human-Not yet exiting Womb" "Human exited Womb". Doesn't this cause human right's issues?

5. If the gov't will not recognize a human w/ rights at the time of conception, then why do they offer the lip service to those who are ignorant to believe it will happen?

I just want to say that we don't award dead humans many rights at all, if conception is when the human starts it's life the isn't the death of the last cell when it dies?

If clinical death is what we use to determine whether a human is alive then if the fetus is a human why not use it on that human?

1. We can keep a cell living indefinently by now
2. Clinical death is when your brain has no functions beyond random impulses
3. A fetus does not have brain function beyond random impulses before week 25

Science and logic as well as anything we can say about anything regarding this apart from religion clearly does not define a pre week 25 fetus as a living human being.

I've looked for different things, like viability, however this is not scientific, what IS scientific is what is stated above, this is an absolute scientific truth, to the best of human knowledge this is the way it is.

If you want to protest it, start by changing clinical death to something other than it is today, then the rest changes with it, IF you can prove it scientifically, which you'll never be able to do.

No brain functions, no life, not based on belief, based on current science and observable evidence.

Biologically it's a human as soon as the first cell is formed. But the question of human rights is somewhat separate. Brain impulses is one possible measure.. But what about consciousness? I don't think a baby is conscious until a long time after birth.


In any case, Jon is on the right track. Most Americans are talking past each other on both sides. Liberals are talking about womens' rights and conservatives are talking about some religious mumbo jumbo, neither of which has anything to do with the actual zygote or fetus.

 

[Duwelon]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: Duwelon
In my opinion, and by my own conscience given to me by God, a human is a human when it has all the DNA of a human and given a reasonable chance, will be born one. Destroying the fetus at any point for any reason when it's expected to be born and live is murder and barbaric.

You know what, that is your BELIEF, based on NOTHING but your BELIEF.

I respect that, i can even understand it.

I don't understand how some people (i hope you are not one of them) wants to dictate other peoples rights based on their BELIEFS though.

Can we agree that this need the scientific perspective and let the beliefs rest with those who believe them?

I am really trying to be diplomatic here, which isn't as easy for me as you might think.

If you want to get scientific, then a human is a human when it has all 23 pairs of chromosomes and will then grow into what that DNA says it will until each cell is dead. The left almost unanimously calls it a "fetus with no rights" and the right almost unanimously calls it a "baby with rights of a human". That's a perspective thing, sure, but one thing that is scientifically clear to me, it is 100% human after it has all the DNA of a human.

Ok, so a dead human is still a human, right? So burning that human being, who has a unique DNA is murder, buring it is murder, right?

Read my post again, a living human can be killed, a dead human... not so much, how can you not get this? It is beyond me how this can be simply overlooked?

Be honest with me, is it because of your beliefs that a dead fetus that is as brain dead as a stillborn discarded child or a born child in a car accident is MORE alive than them?

I HONESTLY don't get it, i really don't and i never will unless you stop providing sheit i alreadiy answered in my first post.

It's perfectly clear to me that you can't murder someone that's already dead.

Ok, so a fetus that is in fact as clinically dead as any born human could ever be, is it a living human being? (a pre week 25 fetus)

You don't see a difference between a fetus that is still growing, cells dividing, organs forming and an already born human that died?

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: herm0016

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

I'll simplify this a tad, anything brain dead == dead.

Fetus before week 25 == dead

Twats on the internet proclaiming their beliefs go against liberalism, democracy, the constitution of every country in Europe and the United States and they have NO problem doing that in ANY country and they have no problem mentioning the SAME constitution to provide THEM rights, so fucking hypocritical it makes me want to puke.

oh.. so now the point at which life begins is spelled out in the constitution? hell.. ill have to read the damn thing again now!!!

so fucking hypocritical it makes me want to puke.

Are you really this stupid or do you put on your extra stupid persona on the internet?

There is NO way in hell i'm going to explain this to you, it's there, in plain text in numerous posts, if you don't get it, i really really can't help you, i doubt anyone else can either.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: DangerAardvark
turkey baster full of soul.

Wasn't that a James Brown song???

 

[abj13]

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Most of that, minus the paperwork of course, can and does already happen via the mother.

Ok, so if a mother can apply for all said "paperwork," how many human beings does she apply for at conception? One? Two? Three? None? You do realize that identical twins/triplets/... develop AFTER conception. You also realize that around 70% of ALL FERTILIZED eggs/conceptuses never make it to birth (and that is due to natural processes, not human induced abortion).

Fact is, conception is hardly a fundamental moment in human "life." 70% don't even make it, and sometimes the fertilized egg decides it just wants to clone it self.

 

[Duwelon]

Originally posted by: abj13

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Most of that, minus the paperwork of course, can and does already happen via the mother.

Ok, so if a mother can apply for all said "paperwork," how many human beings does she apply for at conception? One? Two? Three? None? You do realize that identical twins/triplets/... develop AFTER conception. You also realize that around 70% of ALL FERTILIZED eggs/conceptuses never make it to birth (and that is due to natural processes, not human induced abortion).

Fact is, conception is hardly a fundamental moment in human "life." 70% don't even make it, and sometimes the fertilized egg decides it just wants to clone it self.

That's not what I meant. An unborn baby has rights through the mother (assuming she doesn't off the baby herself).

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: Duwelon
In my opinion, and by my own conscience given to me by God, a human is a human when it has all the DNA of a human and given a reasonable chance, will be born one. Destroying the fetus at any point for any reason when it's expected to be born and live is murder and barbaric.

You know what, that is your BELIEF, based on NOTHING but your BELIEF.

I respect that, i can even understand it.

I don't understand how some people (i hope you are not one of them) wants to dictate other peoples rights based on their BELIEFS though.

Can we agree that this need the scientific perspective and let the beliefs rest with those who believe them?

I am really trying to be diplomatic here, which isn't as easy for me as you might think.

If you want to get scientific, then a human is a human when it has all 23 pairs of chromosomes and will then grow into what that DNA says it will until each cell is dead. The left almost unanimously calls it a "fetus with no rights" and the right almost unanimously calls it a "baby with rights of a human". That's a perspective thing, sure, but one thing that is scientifically clear to me, it is 100% human after it has all the DNA of a human.

Ok, so a dead human is still a human, right? So burning that human being, who has a unique DNA is murder, buring it is murder, right?

Read my post again, a living human can be killed, a dead human... not so much, how can you not get this? It is beyond me how this can be simply overlooked?

Be honest with me, is it because of your beliefs that a dead fetus that is as brain dead as a stillborn discarded child or a born child in a car accident is MORE alive than them?

I HONESTLY don't get it, i really don't and i never will unless you stop providing sheit i alreadiy answered in my first post.

It's perfectly clear to me that you can't murder someone that's already dead.

Ok, so a fetus that is in fact as clinically dead as any born human could ever be, is it a living human being? (a pre week 25 fetus)

You don't see a difference between a fetus that is still growing, cells dividing, organs forming and an already born human that died?

What is clinically dead cannot be killed, can we agree on that?

This is namely where i draw the line week 25, a still born baby can grow even a dead human has cells dividing, organs forming in a test tube does not constitute life.

I think i know what you mean, the preciousness of life, do you have children? I've got two.

But when it comes to laying down the laws for others to follow, we need to do what the people of your country did as well as the people of my country did and do what is generally right, without regard for romanticism nor individual beliefs, no matter how represented they may be in your country.

This is going to be for everyone, we can't base it on a whim or a belief, we need to base it on something subsantial and i have looked, i have studied and this is what i have found.

Last but not least, this is never going to be your decision to make.

 

[abj13]

Originally posted by: Duwelon

That's not what I meant. An unborn baby has rights through the mother (assuming she doesn't off the baby herself).

That makes no sense then. If the human RIGHTS of the conceptus are inately tied to the mother, then it is not an individual. Individuals have individual rights, not rights dependent on another. One cannot go around proclaiming something is human with rights that must be protected, when those rights are entirely dependent on another individual. By your own argument, you are saying that the mother has full domain to determine what rights are actually granted to the conceptus, which is anything but a "pro-life" argument.