I can keep my insurance? YOU LIE!

[woolfe9999]

My position is that the Dems as a whole led people to believe that there would be choice. Obama said that would be the case and it wasn't. Now Obama can't force Congress to write in a particular way, so I'm not blaming him.

We do know that Congress was aware of how this was sold, and they decided to change something people were counting on without mentioning it. As far as I'm concerned Obama did the right thing for not deflecting the issue.

My problem is not with him, but rather with those who knew precisely what they were doing, and that is Congress.

Fair enough I suppose. But you should probably confine your criticism to Senate dems since the House version did not contain whatever the offending provision was.

What is clear here is that Obama seems to be the one who actually outed all of this. This bill was criticised on many different grounds, but I can't recall this one coming up until Obama mentioned it. What I think happened here is that this was some sort of compromize made by Reid to some Senator or group of Senators in order to get their votes. I agree it shouldn't have been in the bill. I'm having trouble seeing it as a lie since whoever is responsible for putting this into the Senate bill wasn't the person who made the pledge. But I do see your point.

This was an ugly process, and the dems bear a lot of responsibility for it. The fact that they chose to not have a public conference process alone allows people to practice all kinds of nefarious speculation about what was going on in that process, and the dems pretty much brought that on themselves.

- wolf

 

[HumblePie]

No, I believe Obama was LYING when he said all through last year, up until about a week ago, that we would have the ability to keep our existing plans when the bill said otherwise. Had Brown not been elected this WOULD have been in the bill passed by the senate, and more than likely in the overall bill passed because I believe Obama KNEW and SUPPORTED this being in the bill based on his choice of words in the speech.

I don't doubt he may try to get it removed NOW.. but thats only because they were caught.

Wow... because your "gut feeling" without any proof at all is what we should all believe? The fact that A) Obama said it first before assembling the bill B) Assembled a bill he gave to Congress without this crap C) came out publicly after it has been changed and denounced the changes have no bearing to your belief?

Wow, just wow. Your feeling is based on groundless speculation at most. Just because you see another event, Senator Browns election, as a direct correlation to Obama stating his displeasure as "proof" he's been lying is about as silly a correlation as one can draw. That would be almost as dumb as blaming the destruction hurricane Katrina did on me because I let loose a fart the previous week. The meaning behind that parable is that just because YOU see direct correlations between unrelated events without any facts doesn't mean make it so. So please just stick with the facts?

These are the facts in DIRECT relation to the HC issue:

1) Obama made statements about what he wanted for healthcare
2) Obama proposed a bill that encapsulated everything he said he wanted to the Senate and House.
3) The Senate turned the bill into a steaming pile
4) Obama is now speaking out against what the Senate has done.

Hrmm... I now see the logic in your argument Fear No Evil. The facts clearly demonstrate that Obama has been a complete liar all along! /sarcasm

 

[Jhhnn]

What role did the Republicans play in this mess of a bill? Don't use the BS excuse of 'they both suck' when at least when it comes to THIS bill, the R's had no ability to change it for the better or worse, OR to prevent it from passing.

The role they played was in universal opposition in the Senate. That puts a few of their fellow travelers, corporate Dems, into the catbird seat, the position of power. Repubs get what they want, even as they get to disown it.

Their fanbois, as usual, firmly believe that something entirely different is what's happening, being firmly entrenched in outrage addiction and circular reasoning...

 

[Fear No Evil]

The role they played was in universal opposition in the Senate. That puts a few of their fellow travelers, corporate Dems, into the catbird seat, the position of power. Repubs get what they want, even as they get to disown it.

Their fanbois, as usual, firmly believe that something entirely different is what's happening, being firmly entrenched in outrage addiction and circular reasoning...

So at what point do the dems take any responsibility for their failures?

 

[Jhhnn]

So at what point do the dems take any responsibility for their failures?

Failure to accomplish what, exactly? Overpower the entrenched and obdurate opposition, implement a program you personally oppose?

It's not their failure, but rather your victory if it comes to pass, attempts to belittle Dems notwithstanding...

A fine example of American democracy in action when 40 recalcitrant senatorial repubs + 1 rogue democrat or independent can thwart the will of the HOR and the Chief Executive...

Let's put the responsibility where it belongs, OK?

 

[Fear No Evil]

Failure to accomplish what, exactly? Overpower the entrenched and obdurate opposition, implement a program you personally oppose?

It's not their failure, but rather your victory if it comes to pass, attempts to belittle Dems notwithstanding...

A fine example of American democracy in action when 40 recalcitrant senatorial repubs + 1 rogue democrat or independent can thwart the will of the HOR and the Chief Executive...

Let's put the responsibility where it belongs, OK?

There's your problem. Its the WILL OF THE PEOPLE that needs to be done. NOT Barack Obama's or Nancy Pelosi's you jackass. This Healthcare bill was a steaming pile of SHIT that the DEMOCRATS wrote. The people of a very liberal state elected a Republican because they were so disgusted with it and the process that was being used to try to ram it through.

Keep in mind that if the steaming pile of healthcare bill that they introduced was SO GREAT, they wouldn't have had to bribe several Democrats into supporting it (Further upsetting the PEOPLE).

People are tired of the Democrats pointing fingers at BUSH and pointing fingers at the Republicans. They ran on FIXING the problems, not pointing fingers. And its becoming clear they don't have the answers.

 

[nobodyknows]

There's your problem. Its the WILL OF THE PEOPLE that needs to be done. NOT Barack Obama's or Nancy Pelosi's you jackass. This Healthcare bill was a steaming pile of SHIT that the DEMOCRATS wrote. The people of a very liberal state elected a Republican because they were so disgusted with it and the process that was being used to try to ram it through.

Keep in mind that if the steaming pile of healthcare bill that they introduced was SO GREAT, they wouldn't have had to bribe several Democrats into supporting it (Further upsetting the PEOPLE).

People are tired of the Democrats pointing fingers at BUSH and pointing fingers at the Republicans. They ran on FIXING the problems, not pointing fingers. And its becoming clear they don't have the answers.

OMG, who died and made you the WILL OF THE PEOPLE?? Geesh, what a looneytoon.

 

[Fear No Evil]

OMG, who died and made you the WILL OF THE PEOPLE?? Geesh, what a looneytoon.

I never claimed I was - But Jhhnn posted that the Republicans were thwarting the will of the HOR and the Chief Executive. Its not the job of those people to impose THEIR WILL on the people.. its their job to represent the will of the people.

 

[nobodyknows]

I never claimed I was - But Jhhnn posted that the Republicans were thwarting the will of the HOR and the Chief Executive. Its not the job of those people to impose THEIR WILL on the people.. its their job to represent the will of the people.

He did win the election and his ideas on health care were a substainial part of why he was elected, so??? I think it's clear that the majority of p[eople want some things changed in the health care industry so insrtead of blocking it the Republicans (the smart ones anyway) need to be willing to cut some deals to get something passsed that our elected leadership would b.e willing to settle for.

After all, what is politics but the art of compromise?

 

[Fear No Evil]

So who was the person(s) who 'snuck in' this provision which would prevent me from keeping my Healthcare plan? Obama's own words.. 'snuck in' tells me someone is trying to subvert Obama's promise. Surely we should investigate who is purposely and willfully trying to sneak in these changes to the bill?

 

[nobodyknows]

So who was the person(s) who 'snuck in' this provision which would prevent me from keeping my Healthcare plan?

Probably your employer? They have to be as sick and tired of this crap as the rest of us.

 

[Jhhnn]

I never claimed I was - But Jhhnn posted that the Republicans were thwarting the will of the HOR and the Chief Executive. Its not the job of those people to impose THEIR WILL on the people.. its their job to represent the will of the people.

Your denial is delusional. The People expressed their will in the last election. The only thing standing in the way of that is the exploitation of Senate rules by Republicans, executed in a manner unprecedented in recent history.

Like it, lump it, or fly it to the moon on a pogo stick- that's just the truth, the way it is.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Your denial is delusional. The People expressed their will in the last election. The only thing standing in the way of that is the exploitation of Senate rules by Republicans, executed in a manner unprecedented in recent history.

Like it, lump it, or fly it to the moon on a pogo stick- that's just the truth, the way it is.

The last election was Brown vs. Coakley in which the public clearly said that THIS steaming pile of healthcare reform is NOT what they want. THATS the truth.. Obama and the Democrats have ruined their 'mandate' for change by taking something the people want and so destroying it that people would rather have the evil insurance companies than Obamacare.

 

[HumblePie]

I never claimed I was - But Jhhnn posted that the Republicans were thwarting the will of the HOR and the Chief Executive. Its not the job of those people to impose THEIR WILL on the people.. its their job to represent the will of the people.

Actually, this is a patently false assumption and really goes against how or government was designed to work.

First off, the "will" of the people to vote for political figures who are expected to do things like GOVERN over the people. I don't want me elected officials sitting on their asses collecting a paycheck. They have a job and they need to do it. Also, the will of the people is that there is 60 democrats in the Senate and a democrat in the white house. You can't get a better "representation" of the "will" of the people than that.

The problem is the "will" of the people of America is too diverse to go with anything and everything the "people" may want. So Americans put into office people who they think are capable of providing a government that tries to effectively do what is the "greatest good" for the American people. That is EXACTLY what and how our government is setup despite some strange claims and ideas around here I've been reading lately. Anyone that disagrees needs to go back to fourth grade and read their elementary school books on the structure of our government at the very least before moving on to concepts right now that are beyond their mental capacity.

The democrats, and Obama while running said he would do healthcare reform. He said it thus the people must have wanted it. Why? BECAUSE HE IS IN OFFICE RIGHT NOW! Now no one is perfect, and people, even presidents, will make mistakes along the way. We just hope that those running our country are actually there for our best interests and don't make to many mistakes. Which is what I think happened to the Healthcare reform bill that was mucked with in the Senate. Repubs played the filabuster card without many of them even trying to compromise. Then Dems in the Senate screwed the pooch, for whatever reason, and gutted the original bill and made something at least with potential into something that stinks to high heaven.

As I said, it is the Senates fault for all this at the moment. Repubs for filabustering, backdoor dealing, and allowing this to happen. Dems for being stupid, a few of them pushing their own hidden agenda, and mucking up the potential for a bill this country needs.

The last election was Brown vs. Coakley in which the public clearly said that THIS steaming pile of healthcare reform is NOT what they want. THATS the truth.. Obama and the Democrats have ruined their 'mandate' for change by taking something the people want and so destroying it that people would rather have the evil insurance companies than Obamacare.

No, what is the truth is that people from ONE state want someone in they think can perhaps fix it. You seem to be assuming want YOU personally want is what America wants. I'm not assuming that, I'm just pointing to the fact that the majority vote, and the president were all elected by the people. Those elected stated they were going to reform healthcare and thus it is one of the reasons they got elected in the first place. See, logic does prevail. Perhaps you should change your name to Fear No Logic? because if you continue posting it only proves that at least.

 

[nobodyknows]

The last election was Brown vs. Coakley in which the public clearly said that THIS steaming pile of healthcare reform is NOT what they want. THATS the truth.. Obama and the Democrats have ruined their 'mandate' for change by taking something the people want and so destroying it that people would rather have the evil insurance companies than Obamacare.

So the new Senator from MA speaks for the whole country? Because you say so??? And "THAT'S the truth"???? ROFLMAO!!

 

[Robor]

Ayone have a % figure on how many of the anti-reform people believe there are death panels or a public option in the Senate version? I'm guessing it's high - IOW uninformed. But they all have their votes. :\

 

[thraashman]

The last election was Brown vs. Coakley in which the public clearly said that THIS steaming pile of healthcare reform is NOT what they want. THATS the truth.. Obama and the Democrats have ruined their 'mandate' for change by taking something the people want and so destroying it that people would rather have the evil insurance companies than Obamacare.

My goodness .... you really are an idiot. I don't know how you function. You're basically foaming at the mouth over falsehoods and made up bullshit. It literally scares me that someone who can vote is as utterly and completely stupid as you. I can't even comment on the topic of this thread because it's so ridiculous. You're actually complaining that Obama pointed out provisions in a bill that MIGHT violate a promise he made and is therefore working to remove those provisions. You're bitching that he's KEEPING HIS PROMISE. Seriously, you need to staple your fool ass mouth shut son.

 

[HumblePie]

My goodness .... you really are an idiot. I don't know how you function. You're basically foaming at the mouth over falsehoods and made up bullshit. It literally scares me that someone who can vote is as utterly and completely stupid as you. I can't even comment on the topic of this thread because it's so ridiculous. You're actually complaining that Obama pointed out provisions in a bill that MIGHT violate a promise he made and is therefore working to remove those provisions. You're bitching that he's KEEPING HIS PROMISE. Seriously, you need to staple your fool ass mouth shut son.

Hey now, no need for that. If you want to use a reason argument that's fine. But those words do not do anything but show that you are foaming at the mouth as well. Sure Fear No Evil's current argument in this thread is groundless, illogical, inane, and moot. Sure, many of his threads and posts are as well, but no need to directly and verbally assault the guy. Doing so only paints a bad picture for you and any further arguments you may have.

 

[Fear No Evil]

My goodness .... you really are an idiot. I don't know how you function. You're basically foaming at the mouth over falsehoods and made up bullshit. It literally scares me that someone who can vote is as utterly and completely stupid as you. I can't even comment on the topic of this thread because it's so ridiculous. You're actually complaining that Obama pointed out provisions in a bill that MIGHT violate a promise he made and is therefore working to remove those provisions. You're bitching that he's KEEPING HIS PROMISE. Seriously, you need to staple your fool ass mouth shut son.

Thanks for your contribution. Keep your head in the sand.. its working well for you.

 

[nobodyknows]

Thanks for your contribution. Keep your head in the sand.. its working well for you.

How can you tell he has his head in the sand?

 

[Robor]

My goodness .... you really are an idiot. I don't know how you function. You're basically foaming at the mouth over falsehoods and made up bullshit. It literally scares me that someone who can vote is as utterly and completely stupid as you. I can't even comment on the topic of this thread because it's so ridiculous. You're actually complaining that Obama pointed out provisions in a bill that MIGHT violate a promise he made and is therefore working to remove those provisions. You're bitching that he's KEEPING HIS PROMISE. Seriously, you need to staple your fool ass mouth shut son.

So true. There's plenty of valid reasons to criticize Obama but this isn't one of them.

 

[Fear No Evil]

So true. There's plenty of valid reasons to criticize Obama but this isn't one of them.

Maybe you could make a list so I could make posts that are Robor approved? I didn't realize I needed to check with you guys first.

 

[nobodyknows]

Maybe you could make a list so I could make posts that are Robor approved? I didn't realize I needed to check with you guys first.

If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

 

[Fear No Evil]

If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

I can stand the heat just fine. Its seems the people throwing the insults and slurs are all lefties here.

 

[thraashman]

Hey now, no need for that. If you want to use a reason argument that's fine. But those words do not do anything but show that you are foaming at the mouth as well. Sure Fear No Evil's current argument in this thread is groundless, illogical, inane, and moot. Sure, many of his threads and posts are as well, but no need to directly and verbally assault the guy. Doing so only paints a bad picture for you and any further arguments you may have.

You're right. I did get excessive there. I just have a problem with lunacy. It's one thing to disagree with something. But make at least some attempt of a logical argument. His has just gone off the map of illogical that it got to me.