I am not a strong believer in God, BUT...

[LordMaul]

Originally posted by: Killbat

Originally posted by: LordMaul
Face it, guys. The athiests are much more in abundance in the world, and either way, you will be met by people who supposedly do not care, but they will fight for days to try and "prove you wrong" or make you feel/look like an asshole for what you believe.

It is a losing battle and I pretty much gave it up a while ago.

oops, do your homework

*sigh*

For me, most places that I would bring up God, it is met by the blabbering and opposition of athiests. Be it just in America, my state, town, or hell, even AnandTech.

Either way, it's useless to fight with them.

 

[Killbat]

Originally posted by: BigJohnKC

Originally posted by: smp
I've heard convincing arguments that those three don't exist, but I've never heard a convincing argument that God doesn't exist. If you choose to belive He doesn't exist, go right ahead - you have free will.

I'll offer one argument .. if god exists, who created god? What came before God? If causation is your argument for god (and I'm only assuming) .. then what caused god?

Ah, now you're getting into the philosophy of theology. Fascinating subject, really. I took a class on this in college, and I wish I had my notes with me for I could truly provide a real agrument for the existence of God. Alas, those notes are somewhrere in a box, and the subject has been clouded from my mind for a while (the class was a long time ago). However, I can still remember some of the causation argument for the existence of God.

I'm sure you'd agree with me that something exists. Pick anything that you think exists, and you'll agree that it exists. I'll propose that the existent thing has a cause, and in turn, its cause exists. The something that exists is the effect of the cause. Continuing, then, everything that exists has a cause that exists, with one exception. This I'll call the ultimate cause, the thing that exists without a cause, for it is the cause of all efects that in turn exist. This ultimate cause exists also. I call the ultimate cause "God."

Of course this argument isn't the basis for my own belief, but you asked for a causal argument. It may be a bit muddled, and the language might not be perfectly sculpted, but that's a function of my own brain capacity and memory ability, nothing else. 🙂

That's a horrible, horrible argument. Setting up all the logic of cause and effect, and then just taking a cop-out leap of faith and saying, "Well, then, since I can't logically conclude that God exists, I'll just say that he does and be satisfied with that."

 

[txgixer]

You gee-zuss believers go to the Neddie Flanders school of BS or what . . . . .

 

[BigJohnKC]

Originally posted by: ChurchOfSubgenius
God exists whether or not you choose to believe in Him

ROFL, that kills me.

Him who? Him Vishnu? Him Budda? Him/Her Shiva?

Oh no, they are all wrong, you are right. (unless you said "insert your god's name here" then you too, would be wrong)

huh? I call Him "God", not Vishnu, Buddha, or Shiva. The Judeo-Christian God, if you will. If you choose not to believe, then don't. I think you're wrong that I'm wrong. But I guess we'll find out when we're dead, eh?

 

[Killbat]

Originally posted by: LordMaul

Originally posted by: Killbat

Originally posted by: LordMaul
Face it, guys. The athiests are much more in abundance in the world, and either way, you will be met by people who supposedly do not care, but they will fight for days to try and "prove you wrong" or make you feel/look like an asshole for what you believe.

It is a losing battle and I pretty much gave it up a while ago.

oops, do your homework

*sigh*

For me, most places that I would bring up God, it is met by the blabbering and opposition of athiests. Be it just in America, my state, town, or hell, even AnandTech.

Either way, it's useless to fight with them.

You're just passing off arguments that oppose your own convictions without actually responding to them. Why is it useless to fight with us? Because we have logic on our side? 😛

 

[txgixer]

Originally posted by: BigJohnKC

Originally posted by: ChurchOfSubgenius
God exists whether or not you choose to believe in Him

ROFL, that kills me.

Him who? Him Vishnu? Him Budda? Him/Her Shiva?

Oh no, they are all wrong, you are right. (unless you said "insert your god's name here" then you too, would be wrong)

huh? I call Him "God", not Vishnu, Buddha, or Shiva. The Judeo-Christian God, if you will. If you choose not to believe, then don't. I think you're wrong that I'm wrong. But I guess we'll find out when we're dead, eh?

i am not worried about finding that out . . . . you can worry for me if you like

i sleep well at night anyway

 

[smp]

Originally posted by: BigJohnKC

Originally posted by: ChurchOfSubgenius God exists whether or not you choose to believe in Him ROFL, that kills me. Him who? Him Vishnu? Him Budda? Him/Her Shiva? Oh no, they are all wrong, you are right. (unless you said "insert your god's name here" then you too, would be wrong)

huh? I call Him "God", not Vishnu, Buddha, or Shiva. The Judeo-Christian God, if you will. If you choose not to believe, then don't. I think you're wrong that I'm wrong. But I guess we'll find out when we're dead, eh?

So only you and a select handful of individuals are going to heaven, where you all better be into the same sh!t .. and everyone else that loved something else is going to hell?

 

[PlatinumGold]

I thought that too, but that's just stupid. "God" only exists, to you, if you subscribe to a certain religion (the.... church?).

The IDEA of "GOD" exists no matter what you believe.

 

[smp]

This is a fast moving thread .. so I'm reposting my edit, so that big john can read what I said ....

Originally posted by: smp

Originally posted by: BigJohnKC

Originally posted by: smp I've heard convincing arguments that those three don't exist, but I've never heard a convincing argument that God doesn't exist. If you choose to belive He doesn't exist, go right ahead - you have free will. I'll offer one argument .. if god exists, who created god? What came before God? If causation is your argument for god (and I'm only assuming) .. then what caused god?

Ah, now you're getting into the philosophy of theology. Fascinating subject, really. I took a class on this in college, and I wish I had my notes with me for I could truly provide a real agrument for the existence of God. Alas, those notes are somewhrere in a box, and the subject has been clouded from my mind for a while (the class was a long time ago). However, I can still remember some of the causation argument for the existence of God. I'm sure you'd agree with me that something exists. Pick anything that you think exists, and you'll agree that it exists. I'll propose that the existent thing has a cause, and in turn, its cause exists. The something that exists is the effect of the cause. Continuing, then, everything that exists has a cause that exists, with one exception. This I'll call the ultimate cause, the thing that exists without a cause, for it is the cause of all efects that in turn exist. This ultimate cause exists also. I call the ultimate cause "God." Of course this argument isn't the basis for my own belief, but you asked for a causal argument. It may be a bit muddled, and the language might not be perfectly sculpted, but that's a function of my own brain capacity and memory ability, nothing else. 🙂

That's good .. so I assumed right then, you're argument was a causation one. Well, it doesn't work for me cause I'm not convinced that anything exists ... I'm almost sure, but you can't be sure of anything (like the non-existence of god which I usually seem so sure of) ... all I know is that I don't know nothing. edit: Arguing anything is rooted in a-priori cycles .. ideology is a-priori ... so lets say, for the sake of argument, that we are arguing from our "stuff does exist" common ground, then I see your argument, but it's not even really an argument, it's just very sculped speach, which you almost admit to yourself. I like poetry too, don't get me wrong. But what you said, is almost equal to what I said, that you don't know. That is not proof, just a theory, that there is an ultimate cause, a cause for all causes, a causeless cause. Nice words though, I like it.

 

[BigJohnKC]

Originally posted by: smp

Originally posted by: BigJohnKC

Originally posted by: smp I've heard convincing arguments that those three don't exist, but I've never heard a convincing argument that God doesn't exist. If you choose to belive He doesn't exist, go right ahead - you have free will. I'll offer one argument .. if god exists, who created god? What came before God? If causation is your argument for god (and I'm only assuming) .. then what caused god?

Ah, now you're getting into the philosophy of theology. Fascinating subject, really. I took a class on this in college, and I wish I had my notes with me for I could truly provide a real agrument for the existence of God. Alas, those notes are somewhrere in a box, and the subject has been clouded from my mind for a while (the class was a long time ago). However, I can still remember some of the causation argument for the existence of God. I'm sure you'd agree with me that something exists. Pick anything that you think exists, and you'll agree that it exists. I'll propose that the existent thing has a cause, and in turn, its cause exists. The something that exists is the effect of the cause. Continuing, then, everything that exists has a cause that exists, with one exception. This I'll call the ultimate cause, the thing that exists without a cause, for it is the cause of all efects that in turn exist. This ultimate cause exists also. I call the ultimate cause "God." Of course this argument isn't the basis for my own belief, but you asked for a causal argument. It may be a bit muddled, and the language might not be perfectly sculpted, but that's a function of my own brain capacity and memory ability, nothing else. 🙂

That's good .. so I assumed right then, you're argument was a causation one. Well, it doesn't work for me cause I'm not convinced that anything exists ... I'm almost sure, but you can't be sure of anything (like the non-existence of god which I usually seem so sure of) ... all I know is that I don't know nothing.

edit: Arguing anything is rooted in a-priori cycles .. ideology is a-priori ... so lets say, for the sake of argument, that we are arguing from our "stuff does exist" common ground, then I see your argument, but it's not even really an argument, it's just very sculped speach, which you almost admit to yourself. I like poetry too, don't get me wrong. But what you said, is almost equal to what I said, that you don't know. That is not proof, just a theory, that there is an ultimate cause, a cause for all causes, a causeless cause. Nice words though, I like it.

Well, yeah, my proof is in my belief. I don't know, but I choose to believe. I'm interested in your "nothing exists"viewpoint, though. It's a sort of solipsism, in a way.

 

[smp]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

I thought that too, but that's just stupid. "God" only exists, to you, if you subscribe to a certain religion (the.... church?).

The IDEA of "GOD" exists no matter what you believe.

So does the idea of a universe without a god

but I see your point.

 

[Killbat]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold

I thought that too, but that's just stupid. "God" only exists, to you, if you subscribe to a certain religion (the.... church?).

The IDEA of "GOD" exists no matter what you believe.

But whether the IDEA of "GOD" has any effect on your life depends on what you believe.

 

[txgixer]

eh, this is getting old

i have some sins to commit at "cluB" tonight

 

[BigJohnKC]

Originally posted by: txgixer

Originally posted by: Mutilator

Originally posted by: BigJohnKC
Yep, just like the Easter Bunny, Satan Claus, and the Tooth Fairy.

haha...that's funny - I like how you called him "Satan" Claus 😀
I've heard convincing arguments that those three don't exist, but I've never heard a convincing argument that God doesn't exist. If you choose to belive He doesn't exist, go right ahead - you have free will.

Well if you go by that theory then since the Easter Bunny, Santa, and the Tooth Fairy are all your parents... then your parents must also be God. 😉
I can't wait till I have kids now lol... "Kid: What?! Do you think you're God or something?! Me: Yes. Now quit yer bitchin and go to your room." 😀

That's a good one. The most logical thing posted about "religion" yet.

Well, I'm not sure where you pulled that out of my one sentence. What was said was hardly the "most logical" thing said yet...

 

[smp]

Originally posted by: BigJohnKC

Originally posted by: smp

Originally posted by: BigJohnKC

Originally posted by: smp I've heard convincing arguments that those three don't exist, but I've never heard a convincing argument that God doesn't exist. If you choose to belive He doesn't exist, go right ahead - you have free will. I'll offer one argument .. if god exists, who created god? What came before God? If causation is your argument for god (and I'm only assuming) .. then what caused god?

Ah, now you're getting into the philosophy of theology. Fascinating subject, really. I took a class on this in college, and I wish I had my notes with me for I could truly provide a real agrument for the existence of God. Alas, those notes are somewhrere in a box, and the subject has been clouded from my mind for a while (the class was a long time ago). However, I can still remember some of the causation argument for the existence of God. I'm sure you'd agree with me that something exists. Pick anything that you think exists, and you'll agree that it exists. I'll propose that the existent thing has a cause, and in turn, its cause exists. The something that exists is the effect of the cause. Continuing, then, everything that exists has a cause that exists, with one exception. This I'll call the ultimate cause, the thing that exists without a cause, for it is the cause of all efects that in turn exist. This ultimate cause exists also. I call the ultimate cause "God." Of course this argument isn't the basis for my own belief, but you asked for a causal argument. It may be a bit muddled, and the language might not be perfectly sculpted, but that's a function of my own brain capacity and memory ability, nothing else. 🙂

That's good .. so I assumed right then, you're argument was a causation one. Well, it doesn't work for me cause I'm not convinced that anything exists ... I'm almost sure, but you can't be sure of anything (like the non-existence of god which I usually seem so sure of) ... all I know is that I don't know nothing. edit: Arguing anything is rooted in a-priori cycles .. ideology is a-priori ... so lets say, for the sake of argument, that we are arguing from our "stuff does exist" common ground, then I see your argument, but it's not even really an argument, it's just very sculped speach, which you almost admit to yourself. I like poetry too, don't get me wrong. But what you said, is almost equal to what I said, that you don't know. That is not proof, just a theory, that there is an ultimate cause, a cause for all causes, a causeless cause. Nice words though, I like it.

Well, yeah, my proof is in my belief. I don't know, but I choose to believe. I'm interested in your "nothing exists"viewpoint, though. It's a sort of solipsism, in a way.

No .. it's not solipsism .. I'm not looking for answers necessarily .. I'm satisfied having no belief, no religion ... I am perfectly happy with that. I used to quest for some answers, but realized that no answer is what I'm getting, and is what everyone is getting .. so I can either find happiness elsewhere (in living life) or worry about it for the rest of my life, or blindly follow a group.

 

[txgixer]

Originally posted by: BigJohnKC

Originally posted by: txgixer

Originally posted by: Mutilator

Originally posted by: BigJohnKC
Yep, just like the Easter Bunny, Satan Claus, and the Tooth Fairy.

haha...that's funny - I like how you called him "Satan" Claus 😀
I've heard convincing arguments that those three don't exist, but I've never heard a convincing argument that God doesn't exist. If you choose to belive He doesn't exist, go right ahead - you have free will.

Well if you go by that theory then since the Easter Bunny, Santa, and the Tooth Fairy are all your parents... then your parents must also be God. 😉
I can't wait till I have kids now lol... "Kid: What?! Do you think you're God or something?! Me: Yes. Now quit yer bitchin and go to your room." 😀

That's a good one. The most logical thing posted about "religion" yet.

Well, I'm not sure where you pulled that out of my one sentence. What was said was hardly the "most logical" thing said yet...

guess so dude

there is not logic when arguing with gee-be-zuss lovers and g0d freaks then

i will just let them weat their t-shirt propaganda and put emblems on their trunk lids and dream about pearly necklace gates

 

[BigJohnKC]

Originally posted by: Killbat

Originally posted by: BigJohnKC

Originally posted by: smp
I've heard convincing arguments that those three don't exist, but I've never heard a convincing argument that God doesn't exist. If you choose to belive He doesn't exist, go right ahead - you have free will.

I'll offer one argument .. if god exists, who created god? What came before God? If causation is your argument for god (and I'm only assuming) .. then what caused god?

Ah, now you're getting into the philosophy of theology. Fascinating subject, really. I took a class on this in college, and I wish I had my notes with me for I could truly provide a real agrument for the existence of God. Alas, those notes are somewhrere in a box, and the subject has been clouded from my mind for a while (the class was a long time ago). However, I can still remember some of the causation argument for the existence of God.

I'm sure you'd agree with me that something exists. Pick anything that you think exists, and you'll agree that it exists. I'll propose that the existent thing has a cause, and in turn, its cause exists. The something that exists is the effect of the cause. Continuing, then, everything that exists has a cause that exists, with one exception. This I'll call the ultimate cause, the thing that exists without a cause, for it is the cause of all efects that in turn exist. This ultimate cause exists also. I call the ultimate cause "God."

Of course this argument isn't the basis for my own belief, but you asked for a causal argument. It may be a bit muddled, and the language might not be perfectly sculpted, but that's a function of my own brain capacity and memory ability, nothing else. 🙂

That's a horrible, horrible argument. Setting up all the logic of cause and effect, and then just taking a cop-out leap of faith and saying, "Well, then, since I can't logically conclude that God exists, I'll just say that he does and be satisfied with that."

Dude, did you even read that? Or are you just bashing? Read again: every effect has a cause, except for one cause, a causeless cause. I call the causeless cause "God", but you can choose to call it "the big bang" or whatever. It's not a cop-out, and not a leap of faith.

 

[smp]

I beleive in isness .... I am ... a rock is ... you are ... I am not pulled apart by negative and positive forces, it's all the same, everything just is. What upsets me though, is that I can't just is ... because people who are anchored by ideologies and morals fight me .. they fight me because they refuse to let anything go .. so my entire environment is torn between opposing forces of ideology . it's hard to just is when the world is like that, you end up fighting everyone.

 

[sybert1ger]

Originally posted by: BigJohnKC

Originally posted by: smp
I've heard convincing arguments that those three don't exist, but I've never heard a convincing argument that God doesn't exist. If you choose to belive He doesn't exist, go right ahead - you have free will.

I'll offer one argument .. if god exists, who created god? What came before God? If causation is your argument for god (and I'm only assuming) .. then what caused god?

Ah, now you're getting into the philosophy of theology. Fascinating subject, really. I took a class on this in college, and I wish I had my notes with me for I could truly provide a real agrument for the existence of God. Alas, those notes are somewhrere in a box, and the subject has been clouded from my mind for a while (the class was a long time ago). However, I can still remember some of the causation argument for the existence of God.

I'm sure you'd agree with me that something exists. Pick anything that you think exists, and you'll agree that it exists. I'll propose that the existent thing has a cause, and in turn, its cause exists. The something that exists is the effect of the cause. Continuing, then, everything that exists has a cause that exists, with one exception. This I'll call the ultimate cause, the thing that exists without a cause, for it is the cause of all efects that in turn exist. This ultimate cause exists also. I call the ultimate cause "God."

Of course this argument isn't the basis for my own belief, but you asked for a causal argument. It may be a bit muddled, and the language might not be perfectly sculpted, but that's a function of my own brain capacity and memory ability, nothing else. 🙂

I've just got to jump in with my opinion here because a lot of my beliefs stem from this type of argument. I can't just believe the universe has existed forever without a cause, hence my belief in a God. If God can create the universe then surely he can have always existed. Its a little bit of backwards logic and I'll admit its much clearer in my head and when I speak about it than when I try to write it down. I think it boils down to not being able to not believe in God. Does that make any sense?

A side note...good job on having a decent thread discussing religion without a giant flame war.

 

[BigJohnKC]

Originally posted by: smp

Originally posted by: BigJohnKC

Originally posted by: smp

Originally posted by: BigJohnKC

Originally posted by: smp I've heard convincing arguments that those three don't exist, but I've never heard a convincing argument that God doesn't exist. If you choose to belive He doesn't exist, go right ahead - you have free will. I'll offer one argument .. if god exists, who created god? What came before God? If causation is your argument for god (and I'm only assuming) .. then what caused god?

Ah, now you're getting into the philosophy of theology. Fascinating subject, really. I took a class on this in college, and I wish I had my notes with me for I could truly provide a real agrument for the existence of God. Alas, those notes are somewhrere in a box, and the subject has been clouded from my mind for a while (the class was a long time ago). However, I can still remember some of the causation argument for the existence of God. I'm sure you'd agree with me that something exists. Pick anything that you think exists, and you'll agree that it exists. I'll propose that the existent thing has a cause, and in turn, its cause exists. The something that exists is the effect of the cause. Continuing, then, everything that exists has a cause that exists, with one exception. This I'll call the ultimate cause, the thing that exists without a cause, for it is the cause of all efects that in turn exist. This ultimate cause exists also. I call the ultimate cause "God." Of course this argument isn't the basis for my own belief, but you asked for a causal argument. It may be a bit muddled, and the language might not be perfectly sculpted, but that's a function of my own brain capacity and memory ability, nothing else. 🙂

That's good .. so I assumed right then, you're argument was a causation one. Well, it doesn't work for me cause I'm not convinced that anything exists ... I'm almost sure, but you can't be sure of anything (like the non-existence of god which I usually seem so sure of) ... all I know is that I don't know nothing. edit: Arguing anything is rooted in a-priori cycles .. ideology is a-priori ... so lets say, for the sake of argument, that we are arguing from our "stuff does exist" common ground, then I see your argument, but it's not even really an argument, it's just very sculped speach, which you almost admit to yourself. I like poetry too, don't get me wrong. But what you said, is almost equal to what I said, that you don't know. That is not proof, just a theory, that there is an ultimate cause, a cause for all causes, a causeless cause. Nice words though, I like it.

Well, yeah, my proof is in my belief. I don't know, but I choose to believe. I'm interested in your "nothing exists"viewpoint, though. It's a sort of solipsism, in a way.

No .. it's not solipsism .. I'm not looking for answers necessarily .. I'm satisfied having no belief, no religion ... I am perfectly happy with that. I used to quest for some answers, but realized that no answer is what I'm getting, and is what everyone is getting .. so I can either find happiness elsewhere (in living life) or worry about it for the rest of my life, or blindly follow a group.

Well, sounds like you're happy. You've gone your own way. I hope you enjoy life. Thanks for discussing logically. I'm glad that there's someone here worthy of a discussion about this instead of idiots who bring you donwn to their level and beat you with experience. 😉

 

[Jzero]

Originally posted by: txgixer
You gee-zuss believers go to the Neddie Flanders school of BS or what . . . . .

I'm not sure which is worse--the Flanders school of BS or the txgixer school of BS. I think you have the most posts in this thread, you somehow you have said nothing at all.

 

[smp]

Why does the causeless cause have to have a name?

 

[BigJohnKC]

Originally posted by: sybert1ger

I've just got to jump in with my opinion here because a lot of my beliefs stem from this type of argument. I can't just believe the universe has existed forever without a cause, hence my belief in a God. If God can create the universe then surely he can have always existed. Its a little bit of backwards logic and I'll admit its much clearer in my head and when I speak about it than when I try to write it down. I think it boils down to not being able to not believe in God. Does that make any sense?

A side note...good job on having a decent thread discussing religion without a giant flame war.

Apart from a few people who choose to speak with strange symbols or spew back a response before fully coming to terms with the logic behind a response, this has been a relatively tame thread. Thanks for you input, too 🙂

 

[BigJohnKC]

Originally posted by: Jzero

Originally posted by: txgixer
You gee-zuss believers go to the Neddie Flanders school of BS or what . . . . .

I'm not sure which is worse--the Flanders school of BS or the txgixer school of BS. I think you have the most posts in this thread, you somehow you have said nothing at all.

HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! 😀

 

[txgixer]

Originally posted by: Jzero

Originally posted by: txgixer
You gee-zuss believers go to the Neddie Flanders school of BS or what . . . . .

I'm not sure which is worse--the Flanders school of BS or the txgixer school of BS. I think you have the most posts in this thread, you somehow you have said nothing at all.

wooo