I am not a strong believer in God, BUT...

[LordMaul]

Originally posted by: txgixer

Originally posted by: BigJohnKC

Originally posted by: Killbat

Originally posted by: SWirth86
I think what he is trying to say is that using the word 'god' does not automatically mean church.

For example, in the pledge of allegience, 'under god' would not be a reference to the church, only to god.

That might not have been his intended idea, so please explain🙂

I thought that too, but that's just stupid. "God" only exists, to you, if you subscribe to a certain religion (the.... church?).

God exists whether or not you choose to believe in Him.

Yep, just like the Easter Bunny, Satan Claus, and the Tooth Fairy.

I don't know about you, but I never had a Satan Claus come to my house on Christmas...

 

[Beau]

Originally posted by: smp

Originally posted by: Beau6183

Originally posted by: Killbat

Originally posted by: iamwiz82

Originally posted by: Killbat

Originally posted by: SWirth86 I think what he is trying to say is that using the word 'god' does not automatically mean church. For example, in the pledge of allegience, 'under god' would not be a reference to the church, only to god. That might not have been his intended idea, so please explain🙂

I thought that too, but that's just stupid. "God" only exists, to you, if you subscribe to a certain religion (the.... church?).

not true, i am not religious in any way, i dont practice, i dont preach, etc, but i believe there is some god(s), who knows, though?

No, true. http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=religious If you believe there is a God, or even any kind of god(s), you are religious.

That's one deffinition, read further down. \Re*li"gious\ (r?-l?j"?s), a. [OF. religius, religious, F. religieux, from L. religiosus. See Religion.] 1. Of or pertaining to religion; concerned with religion; teaching, or setting forth, religion; set apart to religion; as, a religious society; a religious sect; a religious place; religious subjects, books, teachers, houses, wars That's the one I preffer. I view being religious as pertaining to organized religion. Spiritual, OTOH, pertains to deity.

Can't spiritual just pertain to .. "I don't understand what life is, and I know I never will ... WOW! It sure is fvcking amazing!!!" ???

WTF is that supposed to mean? Since I don't believe in organized religion, I don't have any clue as to what life is and never will? WTH kind of moronic billshut is that?

 

[smp]

Originally posted by: LordMaul

Originally posted by: txgixer

Originally posted by: BigJohnKC

Originally posted by: Killbat

Originally posted by: SWirth86 I think what he is trying to say is that using the word 'god' does not automatically mean church. For example, in the pledge of allegience, 'under god' would not be a reference to the church, only to god. That might not have been his intended idea, so please explain🙂

I thought that too, but that's just stupid. "God" only exists, to you, if you subscribe to a certain religion (the.... church?).

God exists whether or not you choose to believe in Him.

Yep, just like the Easter Bunny, Satan Claus, and the Tooth Fairy.

I don't know about you, but I never had a Satan Claus come to my house on Christmas...

You didn't? Satan Claus is when your drunkard father puts on a weak attempt to dress up like Santa, but is too drunk to get it right and there are no presents cause he drank all the xmas money and he stinks of whiskey.

 

[Mani]

Originally posted by: Vespasian
I think many people on ATOT have fallaciously equated "separation of church and state" with "separation of God and state."

*Preparing myself for the typical ATOT abusive ad hominem arguments*

God (with the capital G) is associated as being the Judeo-christian god and is thus affiliated with those churches.

 

[smp]

Originally posted by: Beau6183

Originally posted by: smp

Originally posted by: Beau6183

Originally posted by: Killbat

Originally posted by: iamwiz82

Originally posted by: Killbat

Originally posted by: SWirth86 I think what he is trying to say is that using the word 'god' does not automatically mean church. For example, in the pledge of allegience, 'under god' would not be a reference to the church, only to god. That might not have been his intended idea, so please explain🙂

I thought that too, but that's just stupid. "God" only exists, to you, if you subscribe to a certain religion (the.... church?).

not true, i am not religious in any way, i dont practice, i dont preach, etc, but i believe there is some god(s), who knows, though?

No, true. http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=religious If you believe there is a God, or even any kind of god(s), you are religious.

That's one deffinition, read further down. \Re*li"gious\ (r?-l?j"?s), a. [OF. religius, religious, F. religieux, from L. religiosus. See Religion.] 1. Of or pertaining to religion; concerned with religion; teaching, or setting forth, religion; set apart to religion; as, a religious society; a religious sect; a religious place; religious subjects, books, teachers, houses, wars That's the one I preffer. I view being religious as pertaining to organized religion. Spiritual, OTOH, pertains to deity.

Can't spiritual just pertain to .. "I don't understand what life is, and I know I never will ... WOW! It sure is fvcking amazing!!!" ???

WTF is that supposed to mean? Since I don't believe in organized religion, I don't have any clue as to what life is and never will? WTH kind of moronic billshut is that?

What do you mean moronic bullshit? That's pretty much my view on life .. in an oversimplified sort of way .. yeah, you have a problem with that or are we just hearing each other wrongt?

 

[BigJohnKC]

Originally posted by: txgixer

Originally posted by: BigJohnKC

Originally posted by: Killbat

Originally posted by: SWirth86
I think what he is trying to say is that using the word 'god' does not automatically mean church.

For example, in the pledge of allegience, 'under god' would not be a reference to the church, only to god.

That might not have been his intended idea, so please explain🙂

I thought that too, but that's just stupid. "God" only exists, to you, if you subscribe to a certain religion (the.... church?).

God exists whether or not you choose to believe in Him.

Yep, just like the Easter Bunny, Satan Claus, and the Tooth Fairy.

haha...that's funny - I like how you called him "Satan" Claus 😀
I've heard convincing arguments that those three don't exist, but I've never heard a convincing argument that God doesn't exist. If you choose to belive He doesn't exist, go right ahead - you have free will.

well, gee, thank you for clearing up this issue once and for all, oh wise one.

You're welcome 🙂 😉

 

[Michael1897]

when our country's fore fathers wrote the constitution do you think they had any idea how skewed and misinterpreted and abused it would be in the future?

i'll stay out of this one but leave you with this thought

 

[Random Variable]

The problem with refusing to endorse the "separation of God and State" along with the "separation of Church and State" is that you're discriminating against polytheistic religions along with other belief systems that do not accept the concept of an all-powerful single diety. The State then by implication (or explicitly, as the case may be) endorses and encourages a Judeo-Christian worldview.

As you said, it's only an endorsement. It's not law.

 

[txgixer]

Originally posted by: smp

Originally posted by: LordMaul

Originally posted by: txgixer

Originally posted by: BigJohnKC

Originally posted by: Killbat

Originally posted by: SWirth86 I think what he is trying to say is that using the word 'god' does not automatically mean church. For example, in the pledge of allegience, 'under god' would not be a reference to the church, only to god. That might not have been his intended idea, so please explain🙂

I thought that too, but that's just stupid. "God" only exists, to you, if you subscribe to a certain religion (the.... church?).

God exists whether or not you choose to believe in Him.

Yep, just like the Easter Bunny, Satan Claus, and the Tooth Fairy.

I don't know about you, but I never had a Satan Claus come to my house on Christmas...

You didn't? Satan Claus is when your drunkard father puts on a weak attempt to dress up like Santa, but is too drunk to get it right and there are no presents cause he drank all the xmas money and he stinks of whiskey.

I laugh at you fools who insist on believing in this "g0d"

WTF is a reference to "hE" does exist. I know a lot of He ppl who exist. In 1000 years that fiction called the bibLe and hey_suess, gee-zuss, will be laughed upon

 

[smp]

I've heard convincing arguments that those three don't exist, but I've never heard a convincing argument that God doesn't exist. If you choose to belive He doesn't exist, go right ahead - you have free will.

I'll offer one argument .. if god exists, who created god? What came before God? If causation is your argument for god (and I'm only assuming) .. then what caused god?

 

[smp]

Originally posted by: txgixer

Originally posted by: smp

Originally posted by: LordMaul

Originally posted by: txgixer

Originally posted by: BigJohnKC

Originally posted by: Killbat

Originally posted by: SWirth86 I think what he is trying to say is that using the word 'god' does not automatically mean church. For example, in the pledge of allegience, 'under god' would not be a reference to the church, only to god. That might not have been his intended idea, so please explain🙂

I thought that too, but that's just stupid. "God" only exists, to you, if you subscribe to a certain religion (the.... church?).

God exists whether or not you choose to believe in Him.

Yep, just like the Easter Bunny, Satan Claus, and the Tooth Fairy.

I don't know about you, but I never had a Satan Claus come to my house on Christmas...

You didn't? Satan Claus is when your drunkard father puts on a weak attempt to dress up like Santa, but is too drunk to get it right and there are no presents cause he drank all the xmas money and he stinks of whiskey.

I laugh at you fools who insist on believing in this "g0d"

You calling me a fool?

 

[Beau]

Originally posted by: smp

Originally posted by: Beau6183

Originally posted by: smp

Originally posted by: Beau6183

Originally posted by: Killbat

Originally posted by: iamwiz82

Originally posted by: Killbat

Originally posted by: SWirth86 I think what he is trying to say is that using the word 'god' does not automatically mean church. For example, in the pledge of allegience, 'under god' would not be a reference to the church, only to god. That might not have been his intended idea, so please explain🙂

I thought that too, but that's just stupid. "God" only exists, to you, if you subscribe to a certain religion (the.... church?).

not true, i am not religious in any way, i dont practice, i dont preach, etc, but i believe there is some god(s), who knows, though?

No, true. http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=religious If you believe there is a God, or even any kind of god(s), you are religious.

That's one deffinition, read further down. \Re*li"gious\ (r?-l?j"?s), a. [OF. religius, religious, F. religieux, from L. religiosus. See Religion.] 1. Of or pertaining to religion; concerned with religion; teaching, or setting forth, religion; set apart to religion; as, a religious society; a religious sect; a religious place; religious subjects, books, teachers, houses, wars That's the one I preffer. I view being religious as pertaining to organized religion. Spiritual, OTOH, pertains to deity.

Can't spiritual just pertain to .. "I don't understand what life is, and I know I never will ... WOW! It sure is fvcking amazing!!!" ???

WTF is that supposed to mean? Since I don't believe in organized religion, I don't have any clue as to what life is and never will? WTH kind of moronic billshut is that?

What do you mean moronic bullshit? That's pretty much my view on life .. in an oversimplified sort of way .. yeah, you have a problem with that or are we just hearing each other wrongt?

I thought you were criticising me for not being religious, sorry.
I have my own views of god an the meaning of life. I don't expect anyone to believe in them, but I do expect them to respect them as my beliefs and leave me the frck alone.

 

[smp]

Originally posted by: Beau6183

Originally posted by: smp

Originally posted by: Beau6183

Originally posted by: smp

Originally posted by: Beau6183

Originally posted by: Killbat

Originally posted by: iamwiz82

Originally posted by: Killbat

Originally posted by: SWirth86 I think what he is trying to say is that using the word 'god' does not automatically mean church. For example, in the pledge of allegience, 'under god' would not be a reference to the church, only to god. That might not have been his intended idea, so please explain🙂

I thought that too, but that's just stupid. "God" only exists, to you, if you subscribe to a certain religion (the.... church?).

not true, i am not religious in any way, i dont practice, i dont preach, etc, but i believe there is some god(s), who knows, though?

No, true. http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=religious If you believe there is a God, or even any kind of god(s), you are religious.

That's one deffinition, read further down. \Re*li"gious\ (r?-l?j"?s), a. [OF. religius, religious, F. religieux, from L. religiosus. See Religion.] 1. Of or pertaining to religion; concerned with religion; teaching, or setting forth, religion; set apart to religion; as, a religious society; a religious sect; a religious place; religious subjects, books, teachers, houses, wars That's the one I preffer. I view being religious as pertaining to organized religion. Spiritual, OTOH, pertains to deity.

Can't spiritual just pertain to .. "I don't understand what life is, and I know I never will ... WOW! It sure is fvcking amazing!!!" ???

WTF is that supposed to mean? Since I don't believe in organized religion, I don't have any clue as to what life is and never will? WTH kind of moronic billshut is that?

What do you mean moronic bullshit? That's pretty much my view on life .. in an oversimplified sort of way .. yeah, you have a problem with that or are we just hearing each other wrongt?

I thought you were criticising me for not being religious, sorry. I have my own views of god an the meaning of life. I don't expect anyone to believe in them, but I do expect them to respect them as my beliefs and leave me the frck alone.

no no .. I wasn't trying to argue with you at all actually .. I was only picking at your definition of spiritual .. if you believe in a diety other than god or whatever.. and I was saying, can't I be spiritual too for not believing in anything? I'm quite facsinated by life, that's enough to keep me going.

 

[Mutilator]

Originally posted by: BigJohnKC
Yep, just like the Easter Bunny, Satan Claus, and the Tooth Fairy.

haha...that's funny - I like how you called him "Satan" Claus 😀
I've heard convincing arguments that those three don't exist, but I've never heard a convincing argument that God doesn't exist. If you choose to belive He doesn't exist, go right ahead - you have free will.

Well if you go by that theory then since the Easter Bunny, Santa, and the Tooth Fairy are all your parents... then your parents must also be God. 😉
I can't wait till I have kids now lol... "Kid: What?! Do you think you're God or something?! Me: Yes. Now quit yer bitchin and go to your room." 😀

 

[ChurchOfSubgenius]

God exists whether or not you choose to believe in Him

ROFL, that kills me.

Him who? Him Vishnu? Him Budda? Him/Her Shiva?

Oh no, they are all wrong, you are right. (unless you said "insert your god's name here" then you too, would be wrong)

 

[Beau]

Originally posted by: smp

Originally posted by: Beau6183

Originally posted by: smp

Originally posted by: Beau6183

Originally posted by: smp

Originally posted by: Beau6183

Originally posted by: Killbat

Originally posted by: iamwiz82

Originally posted by: Killbat

Originally posted by: SWirth86 I think what he is trying to say is that using the word 'god' does not automatically mean church. For example, in the pledge of allegience, 'under god' would not be a reference to the church, only to god. That might not have been his intended idea, so please explain🙂

I thought that too, but that's just stupid. "God" only exists, to you, if you subscribe to a certain religion (the.... church?).

not true, i am not religious in any way, i dont practice, i dont preach, etc, but i believe there is some god(s), who knows, though?

No, true. http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=religious If you believe there is a God, or even any kind of god(s), you are religious.

That's one deffinition, read further down. \Re*li"gious\ (r?-l?j"?s), a. [OF. religius, religious, F. religieux, from L. religiosus. See Religion.] 1. Of or pertaining to religion; concerned with religion; teaching, or setting forth, religion; set apart to religion; as, a religious society; a religious sect; a religious place; religious subjects, books, teachers, houses, wars That's the one I preffer. I view being religious as pertaining to organized religion. Spiritual, OTOH, pertains to deity.

Can't spiritual just pertain to .. "I don't understand what life is, and I know I never will ... WOW! It sure is fvcking amazing!!!" ???

WTF is that supposed to mean? Since I don't believe in organized religion, I don't have any clue as to what life is and never will? WTH kind of moronic billshut is that?

What do you mean moronic bullshit? That's pretty much my view on life .. in an oversimplified sort of way .. yeah, you have a problem with that or are we just hearing each other wrongt?

I thought you were criticising me for not being religious, sorry. I have my own views of god an the meaning of life. I don't expect anyone to believe in them, but I do expect them to respect them as my beliefs and leave me the frck alone.

no no .. I wasn't trying to argue with you at all actually .. I was only picking at your definition of spiritual .. if you believe in a diety other than god or whatever.. and I was saying, can't I be spiritual too for not believing in anything? I'm quite facsinated by life, that's enough to keep me going.

Hey, if it makes you happy and adds meaning to your life, then sure 🙂

 

[txgixer]

Originally posted by: Mutilator

Originally posted by: BigJohnKC
Yep, just like the Easter Bunny, Satan Claus, and the Tooth Fairy.

haha...that's funny - I like how you called him "Satan" Claus 😀
I've heard convincing arguments that those three don't exist, but I've never heard a convincing argument that God doesn't exist. If you choose to belive He doesn't exist, go right ahead - you have free will.

Well if you go by that theory then since the Easter Bunny, Santa, and the Tooth Fairy are all your parents... then your parents must also be God. 😉
I can't wait till I have kids now lol... "Kid: What?! Do you think you're God or something?! Me: Yes. Now quit yer bitchin and go to your room." 😀

That's a good one. The most logical thing posted about "religion" yet.

 

[no0b]

Originally posted by: Beau6183

Originally posted by: smp

Originally posted by: Beau6183

Originally posted by: smp

Originally posted by: Beau6183

Originally posted by: Killbat

Originally posted by: iamwiz82

Originally posted by: Killbat

Originally posted by: SWirth86 I think what he is trying to say is that using the word 'god' does not automatically mean church. For example, in the pledge of allegience, 'under god' would not be a reference to the church, only to god. That might not have been his intended idea, so please explain🙂

I thought that too, but that's just stupid. "God" only exists, to you, if you subscribe to a certain religion (the.... church?).

not true, i am not religious in any way, i dont practice, i dont preach, etc, but i believe there is some god(s), who knows, though?

No, true. http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=religious If you believe there is a God, or even any kind of god(s), you are religious.

That's one deffinition, read further down. \Re*li"gious\ (r?-l?j"?s), a. [OF. religius, religious, F. religieux, from L. religiosus. See Religion.] 1. Of or pertaining to religion; concerned with religion; teaching, or setting forth, religion; set apart to religion; as, a religious society; a religious sect; a religious place; religious subjects, books, teachers, houses, wars That's the one I preffer. I view being religious as pertaining to organized religion. Spiritual, OTOH, pertains to deity.

Can't spiritual just pertain to .. "I don't understand what life is, and I know I never will ... WOW! It sure is fvcking amazing!!!" ???

WTF is that supposed to mean? Since I don't believe in organized religion, I don't have any clue as to what life is and never will? WTH kind of moronic billshut is that?

What do you mean moronic bullshit? That's pretty much my view on life .. in an oversimplified sort of way .. yeah, you have a problem with that or are we just hearing each other wrongt?

I thought you were criticising me for not being religious, sorry.
I have my own views of god an the meaning of life. I don't expect anyone to believe in them, but I do expect them to respect them as my beliefs and leave me the frck alone.

*shrug*

 

[LordMaul]

Face it, guys. The athiests are much more in abundance in the world, and either way, you will be met by people who supposedly do not care, but they will fight for days to try and "prove you wrong" or make you feel/look like an asshole for what you believe.

It is a losing battle and I pretty much gave it up a while ago.

 

[smp]

Originally posted by: Beau6183

Originally posted by: smp

Originally posted by: Beau6183

Originally posted by: smp

Originally posted by: Beau6183

Originally posted by: smp

Originally posted by: Beau6183

Originally posted by: Killbat

Originally posted by: iamwiz82

Originally posted by: Killbat

Originally posted by: SWirth86 I think what he is trying to say is that using the word 'god' does not automatically mean church. For example, in the pledge of allegience, 'under god' would not be a reference to the church, only to god. That might not have been his intended idea, so please explain🙂

I thought that too, but that's just stupid. "God" only exists, to you, if you subscribe to a certain religion (the.... church?).

not true, i am not religious in any way, i dont practice, i dont preach, etc, but i believe there is some god(s), who knows, though?

No, true. http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=religious If you believe there is a God, or even any kind of god(s), you are religious.

That's one deffinition, read further down. \Re*li"gious\ (r?-l?j"?s), a. [OF. religius, religious, F. religieux, from L. religiosus. See Religion.] 1. Of or pertaining to religion; concerned with religion; teaching, or setting forth, religion; set apart to religion; as, a religious society; a religious sect; a religious place; religious subjects, books, teachers, houses, wars That's the one I preffer. I view being religious as pertaining to organized religion. Spiritual, OTOH, pertains to deity.

Can't spiritual just pertain to .. "I don't understand what life is, and I know I never will ... WOW! It sure is fvcking amazing!!!" ???

WTF is that supposed to mean? Since I don't believe in organized religion, I don't have any clue as to what life is and never will? WTH kind of moronic billshut is that?

What do you mean moronic bullshit? That's pretty much my view on life .. in an oversimplified sort of way .. yeah, you have a problem with that or are we just hearing each other wrongt?

I thought you were criticising me for not being religious, sorry. I have my own views of god an the meaning of life. I don't expect anyone to believe in them, but I do expect them to respect them as my beliefs and leave me the frck alone.

no no .. I wasn't trying to argue with you at all actually .. I was only picking at your definition of spiritual .. if you believe in a diety other than god or whatever.. and I was saying, can't I be spiritual too for not believing in anything? I'm quite facsinated by life, that's enough to keep me going.

Hey, if it makes you happy and adds meaning to your life, then sure 🙂

Hell no!!! I just think that life is meaningless and totally piontless .. that's what's so amazing to me .. all this is moot, it's really quite fascinating. I'm not kidding either, it's quite a miracle really. I move my fingers and these figures happen on the screen, and you look at them somewhere else in the world and you can kind of grasp onto stuff I'm thinking .. magic!
Same with talking .. same with eating .. put food in mouth, chew, swallow .. bingo! Life, energy .... sustenance... huh? I know there are logical explanations for all this stuff, but even that amazes me .. everything is amazing! Hooray for life!!!

 

[Killbat]

Originally posted by: LordMaul
Face it, guys. The athiests are much more in abundance in the world, and either way, you will be met by people who supposedly do not care, but they will fight for days to try and "prove you wrong" or make you feel/look like an asshole for what you believe.

It is a losing battle and I pretty much gave it up a while ago.

oops, do your homework

 

[BigJohnKC]

Originally posted by: smp
I've heard convincing arguments that those three don't exist, but I've never heard a convincing argument that God doesn't exist. If you choose to belive He doesn't exist, go right ahead - you have free will.

I'll offer one argument .. if god exists, who created god? What came before God? If causation is your argument for god (and I'm only assuming) .. then what caused god?

Ah, now you're getting into the philosophy of theology. Fascinating subject, really. I took a class on this in college, and I wish I had my notes with me for I could truly provide a real agrument for the existence of God. Alas, those notes are somewhrere in a box, and the subject has been clouded from my mind for a while (the class was a long time ago). However, I can still remember some of the causation argument for the existence of God.

I'm sure you'd agree with me that something exists. Pick anything that you think exists, and you'll agree that it exists. I'll propose that the existent thing has a cause, and in turn, its cause exists. The something that exists is the effect of the cause. Continuing, then, everything that exists has a cause that exists, with one exception. This I'll call the ultimate cause, the thing that exists without a cause, for it is the cause of all efects that in turn exist. This ultimate cause exists also. I call the ultimate cause "God."

Of course this argument isn't the basis for my own belief, but you asked for a causal argument. It may be a bit muddled, and the language might not be perfectly sculpted, but that's a function of my own brain capacity and memory ability, nothing else. 🙂

 

[smp]

Originally posted by: Killbat

Originally posted by: LordMaul Face it, guys. The athiests are much more in abundance in the world, and either way, you will be met by people who supposedly do not care, but they will fight for days to try and "prove you wrong" or make you feel/look like an asshole for what you believe. It is a losing battle and I pretty much gave it up a while ago.

oops, do your homework

That's gotta be wrong dude .. there has got to be more than 13 million jews in teh world .. if that were true then that means that i know half of the world's jewish population.

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: Vespasian

The problem with refusing to endorse the "separation of God and State" along with the "separation of Church and State" is that you're discriminating against polytheistic religions along with other belief systems that do not accept the concept of an all-powerful single diety. The State then by implication (or explicitly, as the case may be) endorses and encourages a Judeo-Christian worldview.

As you said, it's only an endorsement. It's not law.

Good point. From the Bill of Rights:

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

I guess this all depends on how you define "respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". If by signing into law the modification of the Pledge of Allegiance to say "under God" and then requiring children to recite it constitutes an "establishment of religion", then this is wrong. It is, however, a matter open to interpretation.

 

[smp]

Originally posted by: BigJohnKC

Originally posted by: smp I've heard convincing arguments that those three don't exist, but I've never heard a convincing argument that God doesn't exist. If you choose to belive He doesn't exist, go right ahead - you have free will. I'll offer one argument .. if god exists, who created god? What came before God? If causation is your argument for god (and I'm only assuming) .. then what caused god?

Ah, now you're getting into the philosophy of theology. Fascinating subject, really. I took a class on this in college, and I wish I had my notes with me for I could truly provide a real agrument for the existence of God. Alas, those notes are somewhrere in a box, and the subject has been clouded from my mind for a while (the class was a long time ago). However, I can still remember some of the causation argument for the existence of God. I'm sure you'd agree with me that something exists. Pick anything that you think exists, and you'll agree that it exists. I'll propose that the existent thing has a cause, and in turn, its cause exists. The something that exists is the effect of the cause. Continuing, then, everything that exists has a cause that exists, with one exception. This I'll call the ultimate cause, the thing that exists without a cause, for it is the cause of all efects that in turn exist. This ultimate cause exists also. I call the ultimate cause "God." Of course this argument isn't the basis for my own belief, but you asked for a causal argument. It may be a bit muddled, and the language might not be perfectly sculpted, but that's a function of my own brain capacity and memory ability, nothing else. 🙂

That's good .. so I assumed right then, you're argument was a causation one. Well, it doesn't work for me cause I'm not convinced that anything exists ... I'm almost sure, but you can't be sure of anything (like the non-existence of god which I usually seem so sure of) ... all I know is that I don't know nothing.

edit: Arguing anything is rooted in a-priori cycles .. ideology is a-priori ... so lets say, for the sake of argument, that we are arguing from our "stuff does exist" common ground, then I see your argument, but it's not even really an argument, it's just very sculped speach, which you almost admit to yourself. I like poetry too, don't get me wrong. But what you said, is almost equal to what I said, that you don't know. That is not proof, just a theory, that there is an ultimate cause, a cause for all causes, a causeless cause. Nice words though, I like it.