I agree with Illhan Omar

[Leeea]

Writing a play...

Your entire post comes off as cruel facetious humor.

I find it difficult to believe you believe any of that, as it is a spin that fluffs off into lala land completely ignoring all details of contrary narrative.

Deaths in Iraq and Syria are running into the hundred of thousands. ISIS attacks across the world outside of Iraq & Syria are running thousands dead*. ISIS insurgencies in Libya, Africa, and Indonesia driving civil
war, death, and organized crime for years to come.

But hey, in your over simplified willfully ignorant world view ISIS does not even exist. The Iran/Iraq war never happened. Everything the US does is evil. Great subject matter for flippy edgy humor which is so cool making death and suffering the butt of jokes.


*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_linked_to_ISIL

 

[pauldun170]

Your entire post comes off as cruel facetious humor.

I find it difficult to believe you believe any of that, as it is a spin that fluffs off into lala land completely ignoring all details of contrary narrative.

Deaths in Iraq and Syria are running into the hundred of thousands. ISIS attacks across the world outside of Iraq & Syria are running thousands dead*. ISIS insurgencies in Libya, Africa, and Indonesia driving civil
war, death, and organized crime for years to come.

But hey, in your over simplified willfully ignorant world view ISIS does not even exist. The Iran/Iraq war never happened. Everything the US does is evil. Great subject matter for flippy edgy humor which is so cool making death and suffering the butt of jokes.


*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_linked_to_ISIL

How did ISIS come about?
I refer you back to my post.

 

[Leeea]

How did ISIS come about?
I refer you back to my post.

ISIS was founded in 1999 by Salafi jihadist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. Three years prior to the AQ terrorist attacks in 2001.

ISIS gained power in 2013 when military units associated with AQ, dissatisfied with AQs lack of progress toward an Islamic Emirate in Syria broke off and joined ISIS to reform the Islamic Caliphate in the middle east. This quickly spread the Syrian civil war to all of its neighbors, with ISIS achieving spectacular success in Iraq. This success commenced a genocide against all non-Sunni minorities.

This resulted in the Rest of the World going to war against ISIS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_military_intervention_against_ISIL



Thing is, you already know all this. You have seen the news just like everyone else. Ignoring reality because it is sad, unfunny, and does not make for good punchlines does not make it any less real. It just makes you delusional.

 

[pauldun170]

ISIS was founded in 1999 by Salafi jihadist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. Three years prior to the AQ terrorist attacks in 2001.

ISIS gained power in 2013 when military units associated with AQ, dissatisfied with AQs lack of progress toward an Islamic emirate in Syria broke off and joined ISIS to reform the Islamic Caliphate in the middle east. This quickly spread the Syrian civil war to all of its neighbors, with ISIS achieving spectacular success in Iraq. This success commenced a genocide against all non-Sunni minorities.

This resulted in the Rest of the World going to war against ISIS: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_military_intervention_against_ISIL

Check this out

The True Origins of ISIS

A secret biography suggests that Abu Ali al-Anbari defined the group’s radical approach more than any other person.

www.theatlantic.com

 

[Leeea]

Check this out

The True Origins of ISIS

A secret biography suggests that Abu Ali al-Anbari defined the group’s radical approach more than any other person.

www.theatlantic.com

From your own link:

What I hope is now clear to readers is that Anbari’s extremist views, which were later mirrored by isis, were forged before the American invasion of Iraq—and before he met Zarqawi.

also from your link:

When the United States invaded Iraq in 2003, Anbari and Zarqawi led separate groups that were not yet part of al-Qaeda in Iraq. (Both pledged allegiance in 2004, Anbari as Zarqawi’s deputy.)

Would you care to know which one of those groups al-Zarqawi was leading?

Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Found in 1999, merged into AQ in 2004, splintered from AQ in 2013 to form ISIS.

and not but not least, from your own link again:

The distinction matters. If isis grew organically for at least a decade before the U.S. invasion, and before Zarqawi’s arrival, that helps explain how it was able to rise in and then dominate a country as demographically diverse as Iraq. The group has deeper roots than has previously been acknowledged.

The US did not create ISIS. From your own link, this particular disaster was inevitable.

 

[pauldun170]

From your own link:


also from your link:


Would you care to know which one of those groups al-Zarqawi was leading?

Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Found in 1999, merged into AQ in 2004, splintered from AQ in 2013 to form ISIS.

Having views does not mean power and influence.
His power and influence arose from the vacuum created by the US invasion and strengthened through our interference in the Syrian conflict.

 

[dank69]

Having views does not mean power and influence.
His power and influence arose from the vacuum created by the US invasion and strengthened through our interference in the Syrian conflict.

Exactly. There were fundamentalists LONG before Anbari. It isn't about how ISIS came into existence. It's about how they were able to acquire the power that they did.

 

[Leeea]

Having views does not mean power and influence.
His power and influence arose from the vacuum created by the US invasion and strengthened through our interference in the Syrian conflict.

Once again more falsehoods.

The US invasion of Iraq resulted in a long term counter insurgency operation that rooted out the extremists networks in Iraq. Zarqawi himself was forced to flee his bases in Anbar province to Mosul in 2008*. He fled to Syria and his organization was targeted by US forces in Syria in 2008**. A full 3 years prior to the Syrian Civil War starting in 2011.

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ISIL
**https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Abu_Kamal_raid

Why Syria do you ask? Because Syria was sheltering and funneling radicals across the border to Iraq:

Maliki blames Syria for attacks, Assad denies claim

Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki said most foreign terrorists operating in Iraq infiltrate through the Syrian border, a charge Syrian President Bashar al-Assad denies as tensions between Baghdad and…

www.france24.com

https://www.state.gov/u-s-relations-with-syria/:

... relations worsened from 2003 to early 2009. Issues of U.S. concern included the Syrian government’s failure to prevent Syria from becoming a major transit point for foreign fighters entering Iraq, its refusal to deport from Syria former Saddam Hussein regime elements supporting the insurgency in Iraq, its interference in Lebanese affairs, its protection of the leadership of Palestinian rejectionist groups in Damascus, its human rights record, and its pursuit of weapons of mass destruction.

Assad thought he could use AQ as a weapon to gain power in the region. The Syrian government sheltered what would become ISIS for short term political gain.

ISIS did not gain power in Iraq, ISIS found a home in Syria and was nurtured in Syria. Like all jihadists, it promptly devoured everything it could.

Claiming the US created or empowered ISIS is completely contrary to reality and history.

 

[pauldun170]

Once again more falsehoods.

The US invasion of Iraq resulted in a long term counter insurgency operation that rooted out the extremists networks in Iraq. Zarqawi himself was forced to flee his bases in Anbar province to Mosul in 2008*. He fled to Syria and his organization was targeted by US forces in Syria in 2008**. A full 3 years prior to the Syrian Civil War starting in 2011.

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ISIL
**https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Abu_Kamal_raid

Why Syria do you ask? Because by 2009 Syria was sheltering and funneling radicals across the border to Iraq:

Maliki blames Syria for attacks, Assad denies claim

Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki said most foreign terrorists operating in Iraq infiltrate through the Syrian border, a charge Syrian President Bashar al-Assad denies as tensions between Baghdad and…

www.france24.com

https://www.state.gov/u-s-relations-with-syria/:


Assad thought he could use AQ against Iraq to gain power in the region. The Syrian government sheltered what would become ISIS for short term political gain.

ISIS did not gain power in Iraq, ISIS found a home in Syria and was nurtured in Syria. Like all jihadists, it promptly devoured the hand the fed it.

Claiming the US created, or empowered ISIS is completely contrary to reality and history.

We are at that weird spot.
I don't want to leave you hanging but I need to pause this conversation for a bit.
All due respect...

 

[dank69]

Once again more falsehoods.

The US invasion of Iraq resulted in a long term counter insurgency operation that rooted out the extremists networks in Iraq. Zarqawi himself was forced to flee his bases in Anbar province to Mosul in 2008*. He fled to Syria and his organization was targeted by US forces in Syria in 2008**. A full 3 years prior to the Syrian Civil War starting in 2011.

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ISIL
**https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Abu_Kamal_raid

Why Syria do you ask? Because Syria was sheltering and funneling radicals across the border to Iraq:

Maliki blames Syria for attacks, Assad denies claim

Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki said most foreign terrorists operating in Iraq infiltrate through the Syrian border, a charge Syrian President Bashar al-Assad denies as tensions between Baghdad and…

www.france24.com

https://www.state.gov/u-s-relations-with-syria/:


Assad thought he could use AQ as a weapon to gain power in the region. The Syrian government sheltered what would become ISIS for short term political gain.

ISIS did not gain power in Iraq, ISIS found a home in Syria and was nurtured in Syria. Like all jihadists, it promptly devoured everything it could.

Claiming the US created or empowered ISIS is completely contrary to reality and history.

Right about the time that ISIS became a household name they had to change their name to ISIL because they were no longer predominantly in Syria. They had spread like wildfire into Iraq.

 

[Leeea]

Right about the time that ISIS became a household name they had to change their name to ISIL because they were no longer predominantly in Syria. They had spread like wildfire into Iraq.

ISIS returned to Iraq in 2014,
three years after the US finished its with drawl from Iraq in 2011 at the request of the Iraqi government,
and 5 years after AQ in Iraqi was forced to flee to shelter in Syria from 2008-2010.

We need to rewind history to 2011 when we have the beginning of the Syrian civil war. There are many reasons for this, but government mismanagement combined with the drought* resulted in starvation among the rural and urban poor.
*https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/02/global-warming-worsened-syria-drought-study

AQ waited until 2012 and promptly began to devour the Syria, where it had been sheltering courtesy of the Assad government. It began to establish an Islamic Emirate in the remains of Syria, operating as Jabhat al-Nusra li Ahl as-Sham.

In 2013 AQ in Syria fractured, with more radical elements forming ISIS, with the goal of creating a world wide caliphate.
In 2014 ISIS invaded Iraq, declared the existence of the Caliphate, and commenced the genocide. This is three years after the US had left Iraq.


The ISIS that attacked Iraq in 2014 was one that had been sheltered and empowered by the government of Syria up to 2011, and then had picked the meat off the bones of the Syrian people and government until 2014.

It had spent 5 years in Syria recovering and growing. It is in Syria ISIS gained its power, its members, at the invitation the Assad government.

It is important to remember that Syria was designated as a State Sponsor of Terrorism back in 1979. It was inevitable these radicals would have always found support in Syria.

 

[dank69]

ISIS returned to Iraq in 2014,
three years after the US finished its with drawl from Iraq in 2011 at the request of the Iraqi government,
and 5 years after AQ in Iraqi was forced to flee to shelter in Syria from 2008-2010.

We need to rewind history to 2011 when we have the beginning of the Syrian civil war. There are many reasons for this, but government mismanagement combined with the drought* resulted in starvation among the rural and urban poor.
*https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/02/global-warming-worsened-syria-drought-study

AQ waited until 2012 and promptly began to devour the Syria, where it had been sheltering courtesy of the Assad government. It began to establish an Islamic Emirate in the remains of Syria, operating as Jabhat al-Nusra li Ahl as-Sham.

In 2013 AQ in Syria fractured, with more radical elements forming ISIS, with the goal of creating a world wide caliphate.
In 2014 ISIS invaded Iraq, declared the existence of the Caliphate, and commenced the genocide. This is three years after the US had left Iraq.


The ISIS that attacked Iraq in 2014 was one that had been sheltered and empowered by the government of Syria up to 2011, and then had picked the meat off the bones of the Syrian people and government until 2014.

It had spent 5 years in Syria recovering and growing. It is in Syria ISIS gained its power, its members, at the invitation the Assad government.

It is important to remember that Syria was designated as a State Sponsor of Terrorism back in 1979. It was inevitable these radicals would have always found support in Syria.

Exactly. 3 years AFTER US left Iraq. They took advantage of the vacuum of power. Do you think ISIS would have become a household name had Saddam remained in power?

 

[Leeea]

Exactly. 3 years AFTER US left Iraq. They took advantage of the vacuum of power. Do you think ISIS would have become a household name had Saddam remained in power?

Yes.

ISIS formed under Saddam, it spread under Saddam. It would have still found a friend and safe haven in Assad next door.

The same drought that took down the Syrian government in 2011 would have taken down a Saddam led Iraqi government.

Jihadists do not care who they devour. There was never any peace to be had with a group intent on establishing a world wide caliphate / exterminating the unworthy.

 

[dank69]

Yes.

ISIS formed under Saddam, it spread under Saddam. It would have still found a friend and safe haven in Assad next door.

The same drought that took down the Syrian government in 2011 would have taken down a Saddam led Iraqi government.

Jihadists do not care who they devour. There was never any peace to be had with a group intent on establishing a world wide caliphate / exterminating the unworthy.

Okay, I guess the many, many analysts blaming the rise of ISIS on the power vacuum in Iraq back when Obama was President were wrong and you are right. WTF do I know.

 

[Leeea]

Okay, I guess the many, many analysts blaming the rise of ISIS on the power vacuum in Iraq back when Obama was President were wrong and you are right. WTF do I know.

I saw a lot of people on social media claiming that. Many people certainly believe it.

The thing is, Saddam was unable to control the entirety of Iraq in 2003. Just over a third of the country was outside of his control. A power vacuum existed in Iraq before the US ever stepped in. The 1991 gulf war left the Saddam government a crippled and weak. Saddam would not have been capable of resisting ISIS in any meaningful way.

------------------------

I think that idea is popular because it is more comforting to embrace the idea it was some specific persons fault then to accept that powers beyond that of the United States of America are at work.

The same cultural forces that created Zarqawi would have always created a radical leader. The same cultural trends that were already in place before the US invaded would have always exhibited themselves. The same forces that created Trump would have always created a US president like Trump.