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I admit it. I support the ideology behind the Nazis

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AstroManLuca

Lifer
Jun 24, 2004
15,628
5
81
I support Obama and he's basically Hitler according to a whole bunch of people so I guess I must be a Nazi.

Also, Godwin's Law invoked in the thread title.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
So, how about answering the question with your own words rather making people watch a 3hr documentary they may not even have access to?
Because the answer is neatly packaged in an excellent documentary. If you really want to see it, I believe Netflix offers a 2 week free trial and the documentary is instantly available via streaming. For those outside the US, too bad.
 

BudAshes

Lifer
Jul 20, 2003
12,981
1,946
126
Because of that excellent documentary. I'm sure most people here won't spend the time to study Nitzsche so I linked it to a documentary that showed the link between his philosophy and the Nazis. That would make it a more interesting discussion. If people wanted to simplify their opinion without understanding, there wasn't much I could do.

If you are older than 16 i pity you.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,346
4,059
126
Because of that excellent documentary. I'm sure most people here won't spend the time to study Nitzsche so I linked it to a documentary that showed the link between his philosophy and the Nazis. That would make it a more interesting discussion. If people wanted to simplify their opinion without understanding, there wasn't much I could do.
Are you sure you didn't just want to sound impressive by rubbing up against a icon of the past? As bamacre pointed out, if you were interested in a discussion of ideas you could have presented a few. And one couldn't have more simplified one's understanding by issuing a lol to my attempt to supply a few examples of N's thinking and commenting on why it struck me you are distorting them. The notion that we all need a three hour video to be worthy of discussing ideas with you, while doubtlessly true, should be easy to overcome by putting N's words in simple language we can all understand and engaging in comment on that, no?
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
Are you sure you didn't just want to sound impressive by rubbing up against a icon of the past? As bamacre pointed out, if you were interested in a discussion of ideas you could have presented a few. And one couldn't have more simplified one's understanding by issuing a lol to my attempt to supply a few examples of N's thinking and commenting on why it struck me you are distorting them. The notion that we all need a three hour video to be worthy of discussing ideas with you, while doubtlessly true, should be easy to overcome by putting N's words in simple language we can all understand and engaging in comment on that, no?
If you've ever had a philosophical argument then you'd know that it takes a lot of time and effort to setup and make your points. It is impossible to do something like that on a forum where people make simplistic statements and vanish or mock you with their simplistic thoughts. So, I presented a documentary that offered an 'iconic' starting point rather than a theoretical. I knew what I was doing and I did it because it was the mathematical equivalent of solving an algorithmn rather than proving it. If people were serious enough, they'd eventually get around to the underlying proof, which may have made an indepth discussion (and writing) worth it. I think starting with the algorithmn would've made this easier to swallow.

Sorry for the 'lol' but I think Nietzsche believed more in innate abilities than reason.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,346
4,059
126
Dari: If you've ever had a philosophical argument then you'd know that it takes a lot of time and effort to setup and make your points. It is impossible to do something like that on a forum where people make simplistic statements and vanish or mock you with their simplistic thoughts.

M: I don't think there is any help for that. You will only be able to reach folk who have an interest in addressing what you find of interest too.

D: So, I presented a documentary that offered an 'iconic' starting point rather than a theoretical.

M: Not sure what you mean by iconic, here, if not just a link.

D: I knew what I was doing and I did it because it was the mathematical equivalent of solving an algorithmn rather than proving it. If people were serious enough, they'd eventually get around to the underlying proof, which may have made an indepth discussion (and writing) worth it. I think starting with the algorithmn would've made this easier to swallow.

M: Other than the fact that I have no idea what you are talking about I can only say that you appear to be trying to get to a subject people won't deal with because of a lack of seriousness with some hope they WILL be serious. I wouldn't hold my breath on that. In my opinion it's turtles all the way down and the best answer to everything is to be simple. Say it simple and see what happens. It could even be that unnecessary complication and intellectualizing may in fact be a defense against real communication, for the very fear you mentioned above, ridicule and drive by shooting.

D: Sorry for the 'lol' but I think Nietzsche believed more in innate abilities than reason.

M: When I said:

"He is replacing, I think, a dying morality with a new one based on reason and an analysis of what affirms life."

I was referring to "God is Dead" and the problems created for morality when the 'absolute' upon which they were founded has disappeared. He faced the problem of finding a substitute basis for moral behavior, one not resting of faith, and therefore one founded on reason. He was, after all, arguing with logic to make his points. And as a thinker, I am pretty sure he had faith in reason as it was his tool of persuasion. What he adduced, it would seem from the WIKI material I quoted, is that his reason lead him to a belief that the prime motive in man and the universe is a drive for power.

Furthermore, reason IS one of man's primary distinguishing and also innate characteristics.

Hehe where you see D: that was supposed to be a D followed by a : I hate fusetalk or whatever this is.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
Dari: If you've ever had a philosophical argument then you'd know that it takes a lot of time and effort to setup and make your points. It is impossible to do something like that on a forum where people make simplistic statements and vanish or mock you with their simplistic thoughts.

M: I don't think there is any help for that. You will only be able to reach folk who have an interest in addressing what you find of interest too.

D: So, I presented a documentary that offered an 'iconic' starting point rather than a theoretical.

M: Not sure what you mean by iconic, here, if not just a link.

D: I knew what I was doing and I did it because it was the mathematical equivalent of solving an algorithmn rather than proving it. If people were serious enough, they'd eventually get around to the underlying proof, which may have made an indepth discussion (and writing) worth it. I think starting with the algorithmn would've made this easier to swallow.

M: Other than the fact that I have no idea what you are talking about I can only say that you appear to be trying to get to a subject people won't deal with because of a lack of seriousness with some hope they WILL be serious. I wouldn't hold my breath on that. In my opinion it's turtles all the way down and the best answer to everything is to be simple. Say it simple and see what happens. It could even be that unnecessary complication and intellectualizing may in fact be a defense against real communication, for the very fear you mentioned above, ridicule and drive by shooting.

D: Sorry for the 'lol' but I think Nietzsche believed more in innate abilities than reason.

M: When I said:

"He is replacing, I think, a dying morality with a new one based on reason and an analysis of what affirms life."

I was referring to "God is Dead" and the problems created for morality when the 'absolute' upon which they were founded has disappeared. He faced the problem of finding a substitute basis for moral behavior, one not resting of faith, and therefore one founded on reason. He was, after all, arguing with logic to make his points. And as a thinker, I am pretty sure he had faith in reason as it was his tool of persuasion. What he adduced, it would seem from the WIKI material I quoted, is that his reason lead him to a belief that the prime motive in man and the universe is a drive for power.

Furthermore, reason IS one of man's primary distinguishing and also innate characteristics.

Hehe where you see D: that was supposed to be a D followed by a : I hate fusetalk or whatever this is.
I agree 'that the prime motive in man and the universe is a drive for power'. But don't you find it ironic that this deduction led him to believe that instinct was stronger than reason? Also, isn't it ironic that Hitler became a dictator using the tools of democracy in the most educated nation in the world at the time? It may seem like a wholesale regression but there seem to be (at the time, perhaps all time?) a desire for pure, unadulterated power. In essence, reason was just a conduit to explain something that we've known all along; something that, even with all our modernity, we can never escape. This is that nothing is a substitute for strength. Is the pen really mightier than the sword? Only when everyone plays by the rules. But what if I just gorge the person that's holding the pen? What then? Well, I become the new leader. Simple as that.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,030
1
61
Hehe where you see D: that was supposed to be a D followed by a : I hate fusetalk or whatever this is.
Beautiful irony. :biggrin:

Just an FYI, if you want to get rid of that, you can click on edit, then Go Advanced, then under Misc Options, check "Disable smilies in text."
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,227
5
76
Because the answer is neatly packaged in an excellent documentary. If you really want to see it, I believe Netflix offers a 2 week free trial and the documentary is instantly available via streaming. For those outside the US, too bad.
There is another movie I'd suggest you watch, it's not a documentary, however- it's called Schindler's List.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,346
4,059
126
Oh God, you did not just say that to Moonbeam.
I let that slide choosing to assume he meant 'when one has a philosophical discussion' because, on the one hand, while I am fairly secure emotionally that I may have had a philosophical discussion or two somewhere in my checkered past, that additionally everybody else posting here has too, and thus we are all aware of what happens when you try on a forum to have one.

Thanks bamacre
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
67,346
4,059
126
Dari: I agree 'that the prime motive in man and the universe is a drive for power'.

M: I don't. I stated that as what I took to be N's position from the WIKI stuff. I gather he was challenging, who, Schopenhauer's idea that the motive is to live, a notion, I further gather, that N's associated with being weak, or insufficiently active as a basis for morality.

D : But don't you find it ironic that this deduction led him to believe that instinct was stronger than reason?

M: I lack sufficient knowledge to say if that was his position. I certainly think, myself, that the unconscious motives that drive people are stronger than reason. My definition of rationalization is reason in the pursuit of justification for unconscious desires and attitudes, bigotry explaining whey it is justified, etc.

D :Also, isn't it ironic that Hitler became a dictator using the tools of democracy in the most educated nation in the world at the time? It may seem like a wholesale regression but there seem to be (at the time, perhaps all time?) a desire for pure, unadulterated power.

M: I do not find it ironic. I think Nazi Germany is right under the surface of American life all the time in wait of a moment in which to raise it's ugly head. It is not, in my opinion, however, anything to do with a will to power. It is a will to control life so that it causes no negative feelings to arise.

D : In essence, reason was just a conduit to explain something that we've known all along; something that, even with all our modernity, we can never escape.

M: We will never escape if we remain unconscious of what we feel. It is possible to become conscious of what we feel, but it is profoundly difficult.

D : This is that nothing is a substitute for strength. Is the pen really mightier than the sword? Only when everyone plays by the rules. But what if I just gorge the person that's holding the pen? What then? Well, I become the new leader. Simple as that.

M: I think, if it were that simple, the next guy down from the benevolent leader of whatever his horse shit name is in North Korea, would have been gorged long ago. Just my opinion.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
Do you recall that the Nazi's thought they were the master race and cooked millions of jews in ovens?

Is that your dream?
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
Read Mein Kampf and if you still feel that way, check yourself in for psychiatric help.
Why would I read something like that when I can go to his source? As I've said before, some of the sayings of Nietzsche were twisted. I said that in the OP so I don't know why you cannot move beyond the word 'Nazi'.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,531
3
0
Why would I read something like that when I can go to his source? As I've said before, some of the sayings of Nietzsche were twisted. I said that in the OP so I don't know why you cannot move beyond the word 'Nazi'.
Oh lets see, the Holocast, millions slaughtered in war, millions displaced, whole countries decimated, you know the usual.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
Oh lets see, the Holocast, millions slaughtered in war, millions displaced, whole countries decimated, you know the usual.
Yeah, I know. So if Hitler liked Snickers I cannot like it? Notice how Snickers and Nietzsche (he did not have a high opinion of Germans) have little to nothing to do with the xenophobic part of the Nazi regime. Some people are too simplistic in their thought process.
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,531
3
0
Yeah, I know. So if Hitler liked Snickers I cannot like it? Notice how Snickers and Nietzsche (he did not have a high opinion of Germans) have little to nothing to do with the xenophobic part of the Nazi regime. Some people are too simplistic in their thought process.
Well admitting it is the first step, next is for you to do something about your thought process.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,134
38
91
Well admitting it is the first step, next is for you to do something about your thought process.
That was in reference to your thought process regarding the Nazis. I never categorically dismiss anyone's thoughts despite their background, whether they're angels or demons. Instead, I try to challenge it by playing Devil's advocate. I guess for some, they cannot see good and bad in the same entity. Everything must be 100%:rolleyes:
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,531
3
0
That was in reference to your thought process regarding the Nazis. I never categorically dismiss anyone's thoughts despite their background, whether they're angels or demons. Instead, I try to challenge it by playing Devil's advocate. I guess for some, they cannot see good and bad in the same entity. Everything must be 100%:rolleyes:
Well with the Nazi's that 100% is pretty dead on.
 

JKing106

Platinum Member
Mar 19, 2009
2,193
0
0
Stop feeding the troll, people. Make him leave the basement and get some real human attention, instead of this.
 

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