hypocritical christians

[GtPrOjEcTX]

Originally posted by: EXman

how do christians get drunk, get high, have premarital sex, are homosexuals, swear on a regular basis, cheat, etc and still manage to call themselves christians and go to church every sunday?

They are not Christians (notice that the "C" is capitalized)

So they are not hypocritical Christians they are just fooling themselves and living in sin. It takes more than calling yourself a Christian to be one.

They ARE Christians if they believe, confess, repent and are baptised. Though they may be fallen Christians.


[edited due to past/present error]

 

[Jfur]

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX

Originally posted by: Jfur
Christians who sin are still Christians and are still saved. why? because all Christians sin. all people sin. sinning intentionally and sinning unintentionally ... its still sin. being a Christian doesn't give you the license to sin freely. that's ridiculous. the motive for living a more Christ-like life is to please God.

Once saved, always saved is not taught in the Bible. Once saved Christians can fall away. Judas for example.

Can you please edit this -- I don't know how or why -- but that is

NOT my quote or my opinion :Q

 

The story of the temple where Jesus cast out the sellers and buyers can be found in Matthew 21. Read verse 12 - 13 for this specific event. It can also be found in Luke 19:45.

By the way, even Jesus judged the Pharisees and Scribes. It sure wasn't the day of judgement yet. It seems to me that what Jesus couldn't stand was hypocrites.

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

Originally posted by: Jfur

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX

Originally posted by: udonoogen
Christians who sin are still Christians and are still saved. why? because all Christians sin. all people sin. sinning intentionally and sinning unintentionally ... its still sin. being a Christian doesn't give you the license to sin freely. that's ridiculous. the motive for living a more Christ-like life is to please God.

Once saved, always saved is not taught in the Bible. Once saved Christians can fall away. Judas for example.

Can you please edit this -- I don't know how or why -- but that is

NOT my quote or my opinion :Q

my bad, not sure how your name got in there instead of udonoogen's. It has been edited.

 

[Jfur]

Originally posted by: Zakath15
Exactly.

The whole point about the story of Onan (and subsequently, Onanism) was misconstrued. Masturbation, in itself, isn't inherently sinful. What Onan did wasn't masturbation, per se, it was actually just a method of "pulling out"; he did this out of selfish motivation (knowing the child borne would not be his), and not out of respect for God's command.

Then Judah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother." 9 But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the LORD's sight; so he put him to death also.

However, there are passages that would point to some sort of sinfulness... "Therefore, honor God with your body" (1 Cor. 6:20), "...that each of you should learn to control his body in a way that is holy and honorable." (1 Thess. 4:4) When dealing with pornography or 'lustful thoughts' about women, the issue is fairly clear - that line of thought is wrong, from a Christian perspective. As to masturbation, the compromise I came to in my Christian days was that if masturbation was an issue that caused enough guilt to compromise my "walk with god", then I should attempt to curtail it.

Every so often I read about another guy who hacks off his penis in a fit because the Bible says "if thy hand or foot offend you, cut them off" and he couldn't control his masturbation or erections.

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX
Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
For the ones who think we are not to judge others.
ad·mon·ish
1) To reprove gently but earnestly.
2) To counsel (another) against something to be avoided; caution.
3) To remind of something forgotten or disregarded, as an obligation or a responsibility.

Matthew 7:1-5
Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Definitions:
mote - a very small particle; a speck
beam - a squared-off log or a large, oblong piece of timber, metal, or stone used especially as a horizontal support in construction (in other words, a big log)
Often misinterpretted due to lack of context. Judge not, because you yourself will be judged as well. Taken in context it instructs to not judge someone for some small flaw they have (speck in their eye) while you yourself have much greater problems (log in your eye). It calls a person doing this a hypocrite, and instructs them to get rid of their own problems (cast out the beam out of thine own eye) and then they will be able to properly help the other fallen Christian. (see clearly help out your brother)
Note: when speaking of "brothers" throughout the New Testament it is refering to fellow Christians.

Here are some more verses luvly to back up your point...they are on page 3 of this thread

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

Originally posted by: Jfur

Originally posted by: Zakath15
Exactly.

The whole point about the story of Onan (and subsequently, Onanism) was misconstrued. Masturbation, in itself, isn't inherently sinful. What Onan did wasn't masturbation, per se, it was actually just a method of "pulling out"; he did this out of selfish motivation (knowing the child borne would not be his), and not out of respect for God's command.

Then Judah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother." 9 But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the LORD's sight; so he put him to death also.

However, there are passages that would point to some sort of sinfulness... "Therefore, honor God with your body" (1 Cor. 6:20), "...that each of you should learn to control his body in a way that is holy and honorable." (1 Thess. 4:4) When dealing with pornography or 'lustful thoughts' about women, the issue is fairly clear - that line of thought is wrong, from a Christian perspective. As to masturbation, the compromise I came to in my Christian days was that if masturbation was an issue that caused enough guilt to compromise my "walk with god", then I should attempt to curtail it.

Every so often I read about another guy who hacks off his penis in a fit because the Bible says "if thy hand or foot offend you, cut them off" and he couldn't control his masturbation or erections.

hmm, well that would certainly solve the problem...but then I guess the guy didn't read the verses stating that his body is God's temple.

 

[Jfur]

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX

Originally posted by: Jfur

Originally posted by: Zakath15
Exactly.

The whole point about the story of Onan (and subsequently, Onanism) was misconstrued. Masturbation, in itself, isn't inherently sinful. What Onan did wasn't masturbation, per se, it was actually just a method of "pulling out"; he did this out of selfish motivation (knowing the child borne would not be his), and not out of respect for God's command.

Then Judah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother." 9 But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the LORD's sight; so he put him to death also.

However, there are passages that would point to some sort of sinfulness... "Therefore, honor God with your body" (1 Cor. 6:20), "...that each of you should learn to control his body in a way that is holy and honorable." (1 Thess. 4:4) When dealing with pornography or 'lustful thoughts' about women, the issue is fairly clear - that line of thought is wrong, from a Christian perspective. As to masturbation, the compromise I came to in my Christian days was that if masturbation was an issue that caused enough guilt to compromise my "walk with god", then I should attempt to curtail it.

Every so often I read about another guy who hacks off his penis in a fit because the Bible says "if thy hand or foot offend you, cut them off" and he couldn't control his masturbation or erections.

hmm, well that would certainly solve the problem...but then I guess the guy didn't read the verses stating that his body is God's temple.

I guess some things are just not meant to be interpreted
literally

 

[EXman]

They ARE Christians if they believed, confess, repented and were baptised. Though they may be fallen Christians.

"Believed and repented" that is past tence but probably just an error on your part. Just because they were brought up Christian and were babtised as a small child does not make you a Christian. Yes Christians sin every day but leading a non-Christian life and fooling yourself that you are Christian isn't going to get you Heaven. Personally I have done the same thing in my life and I know now that I was just flat wrong. People who continue to sin everyday as weezergirl stated are hurting the church, themselves and making a mockery of the Christian Faith. Yes they are fallen Christians of course but unless they change thier lifestyle and not rationalize their sins it is to Hell they are going plain and simple.

 

"Here are some more verses luvly to back up your point...they are on page 3 of this thread"

Thanks for reposting that, GtProjectX. I am familiar with some of those verses. I'll take note of the rest. Thanks.

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

Originally posted by: EXman

They ARE Christians if they believed, confess, repented and were baptised. Though they may be fallen Christians.

"Believed and repented" that is past tence but probably just an error on your part. Just because they were brought up Christian and were babtised as a small child does not make you a Christian. Yes Christians sin every day but leading a non-Christian life and fooling yourself that you are Christian isn't going to get you Heaven. Personally I have done the same thing in my life and I know now that I was just flat wrong. People who continue to sin everyday as weezergirl stated are hurting the church, themselves and making a mockery of the Christian Faith. Yes they are fallen Christians of course but unless they change thier lifestyle and not rationalize their sins it is to Hell they are going plain and simple.

I completely agree with you.

Just because a person has done the steps necessary to become a Christian (which matters a ton), but doesn't lead a faithful life (fallen Christian) is not guaranteed heaven.

Originally posted by: luvly
"Here are some more verses luvly to back up your point...they are on page 3 of this thread"

Thanks for reposting that, GtProjectX. I am familiar with some of those verses. I'll take note of the rest. Thanks.

you're welcome...just trying to help.

 

[Zebo]

Weezer Gir

What Linux Boy is tryn to say is it's nothing new; People have always been immoral, shiftless, self-gratifying, good-for-nothing shits. But for ages, humankind struggled to find a conceptual system to operationalize their spiritual shortcomings, the bible(s) and scipture(s) give it to us. Only problem is people have always been immoral, shiftless, self-gratifying, good-for-nothing shits.

 

[EXman]

I completely agree with you.

WoW I have never heard that before.

 

[jyates]

Originally posted by: luvly
The story of the temple where Jesus cast out the sellers and buyers can be found in Matthew 21. Read verse 12 - 13 for this specific event. It can also be found in Luke 19:45.

By the way, even Jesus judged the Pharisees and Scribes. It sure wasn't the day of judgement yet. It seems to me that what Jesus couldn't stand was hypocrites.

What Jesus couldn't stand was those who misused the temple (his father's house) and another thing Jesus couldn't
stand was those who were sinning and said they were not. But as fast as he overturned those tables of the
money changers he would have forgiven them if they had asked him for forgiveness.

His character was one of righteous anger and always willing to forgive without any strings attached.

The Scribes and Pharisees were holy acting on the outside but their hearts were corrupt. They had learned to
"keep the law" but had missed the meaning of the law totally.

They hated Jesus because he was "shaking up their worlds". People still hate him to this day because he points to our
deepest thoughts and hidden actions and convicts us of what we are doing.

He was THE LIGHT and the powers that be (Scribes and Pharisees) attempted to extinguish that LIGHT.

Read the Gospels and find where a person who was a sinner approached Jesus and you'll never see him turn away anyone
who came to him with a need. He caught a lot of flak from the established leaders of the day for "eating with sinners".
He couldn't even heal people without them saying he didn't do it correctly and on the correct day!

They were interested in the letter of the law and Jesus was trying to teach the meaning of the law.

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

Originally posted by: jyates
His character was one of righteous anger and always willing to forgive without any strings attached.

Well, just the string that the people were honestly repenting, not just doing lip service.

Read the Gospels and find where a person who was a sinner approached Jesus and you'll never see him turn away anyone who came to him with a need.

Nope, he never turned a person away. But there was a parable of a man that came to him leaving still a sinner. For example, the parable of the rich man who wanted to know what else to do in his life to be saved. Jesus knew he was a rich man and had much love for his money, so he told him to sell all he had and follow him. But the man went away sad, b/c he knew he couldn't because he loved the money too much. In this case the man did everything to follow Jesus except that one thing, and it was that one thing that caused him not to be saved.

[edit]I can't recall if this was a parable or an actual occurance. I'll need to look it up.[/edit]

 

I hear you, Jyates. And I agree. However, here's what I extract from all examples of Jesus' stories: He took sinners who were repentful. Those sinners who wanted to live that kind of life continually, he left alone and judged. Every story of sinners, like Mary the prostitute, the Samaritan lady, the crowd that followed him, etc. and even his parables all had one commonality: People who were willing to repent and accepted that they were sinners were the people he embraced. I guess the only exception is the rich man's story. I too remember that story where Jesus said people would have to give up things and follow him. I think the rich man's story was a true story. I'm not very sure.

It would seem to me at the end that Jesus said, don't make the law your ruler, but don't purposely violate either. It seems to be a concept of don't operate as though the law were some rigid system and the only determinant of entering God's kingdom. Wouldn't it be a combination of your heart and your actions from what Jesus has said? So it brings in the faith and work argument. It seems to me that faith without work is dead, as said by James. Perhaps Jesus too mean work without faith and faith without work are both dead.

Edit: The story I have difficulty reconciling is Judas' story. He was sorry for what he did and returned the money to the Chiefs. Did not he? Yet, if I recall, Jesus said he would not see the kingdom of God.

 

[jyates]

Originally posted by: GtPrOjEcTX

Originally posted by: jyates
His character was one of righteous anger and always willing to forgive without any strings attached.

Well, just the string that the people were honestly repenting, not just doing lip service.

Read the Gospels and find where a person who was a sinner approached Jesus and you'll never see him turn away anyone who came to him with a need.

Nope, he never turned a person away. But there was a parable of a man that came to him leaving still a sinner. For example, the parable of the rich man who wanted to know what else to do in his life to be saved. Jesus knew he was a rich man and had much love for his money, so he told him to sell all he had and follow him. But the man went away sad, b/c he knew he couldn't because he loved the money too much. In this case the man did everything to follow Jesus except that one thing, and it was that one thing that caused him not to be saved.

[edit]I can't recall if this was a parable or an actual occurance. I'll need to look it up.[/edit]

Jesus knows when we are "real" and when we aren't. Forgivness comes from real sorrow for an offense. Not just
saying the words "please forgive me".


The Scribes and Pharisees knew the words but didn't have the true sorrow in their heart. They looked "clean" on the outside
but they were "dirty" on the inside.


It was an actual occurence......he was a "young rich ruler" and Jesus knew his heart and knew what was going to keep
him from being able to follow him completely (love of his money and the comforts it brought).

What I was saying is that Jesus never turned anyone away who sought him because they were "sinners" but he never snapped
his fingers and "made" people change their hearts towards him. They had to do that all on their own as in the example you
furnished of the "rich young ruler". He left just as "lost" as he came because he wouldn't give up the one thing that stood
between him and a relationship with God.

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

I agree with your points, and understand about Jesus's mercy and compassion to turn no one away that seeks him out simply because of their condition.

 

[Rainsford]

I'm not Christian, but if I did believe in God, Heaven and Hell, the latter is where all of "those" Christians are going. Why? Because I personally believe that if God exists, He would rather have us be good people that believe in Him. The notion that if there was a God, all He cares about is that we believe in Him seems a little silly to me.

But that's not very comforting to me since I don't believe in Hell, or Heaven, or even the Christian God. But I like "my" belief system's solution for people like that a lot better. Buddhism teaches that you alone are responsible for your conditions, in this life and the next, to put it very simply. That's the whole idea of Karma. Act like an idiot, and it will come back to bite you.

 

[jyates]

Originally posted by: luvly
I hear you, Jyates. And I agree. However, here's what I extract from all examples of Jesus' stories: He took sinners who were repentful. Those sinners who wanted to live that kind of life continually, he left alone and judged. Every story of sinners, like Mary the prostitute, the Samaritan lady, the crowd that followed him, etc. and even his parables all had one commonality: People who were willing to repent and accepted that they were sinners were the people he embraced. I guess the only exception is the rich man's story. I too remember that story where Jesus said people would have to give up things and follow him. I think the rich man's story was a true story. I'm not very sure.

It would seem to me at the end that Jesus said, don't make the law your ruler, but don't purposely violate either. It seems to be a concept of don't operate as though the law were some rigid system and the only determinant of entering God's kingdom. Wouldn't it be a combination of your heart and your actions from what Jesus has said? So it brings in the faith and work argument. It seems to me that faith without work is dead, as said by James. Perhaps Jesus too mean work without faith and faith without work are both dead.

Edit: The story I have difficulty reconciling is Judas' story. He was sorry for what he did and returned the money to the Chiefs. Did not he? Yet, if I recall, Jesus said he would not see the kingdom of God.

Luvly,

Great quote by James......and I think the meaning is that we need the horse in front of the cart.

Faith will produce works......If we believe truly we can't but help but grow fruit and one of these fruits is our "outwardly seen works".
But works alone will never create faith.

Judas was looking at Jesus to be a savior of the Jewish people and "save" them from the opression of the Roman rule they were under.
I don't believe he saw Jesus for what his real purpose was, and when he didn't "free" the Jewish people by becoming the "king" that
many wanted him to be that Judas was dissapointed and "sold him out" in anger and disappointment. But I don't believe he still recognized who Jesus was when he went back and tried to give the money back to the council but rather was feeling guilty
for his part in having Jesus arrested. When they wouldn't accept the money he threw it down and left and hanged himself. He was
without hope totally which leads me to believe that he had been following along with Jesus and the 11 others but his heart was never changed.

Peter denied being one of "them" 3 times and even though he wept bitterly when he remembered that Jesus had told
him that he would deny knowing him that he didn't have that hopelessness that Judas had and ended up being used of God in a
great way in the early church. I find great reassurance in the fact that even though I sin daily that if I'm sorrowful over my sins and
recognize my need of God's help that I can be of some use in his kingdom no matter how small it may be.

Jim

 

[przero]

GtPrOjEcTX - How do you get to heaven?

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

Originally posted by: przero
GtPrOjEcTX - How do you get to heaven?

The most important question there is.

The steps of being saved are summed up pretty well in Hebrews 10:15-25

15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, 16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,"
This is us hearing the word and believing in the lord.

17 then he adds, "I will remember their sins and their misdeeds no more." 18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.
We repent of our sins and they will be longer held against us. Before the new testament when a person sinned he had to give an offering (typically an animal) to God as a way to repent. Jesus Christ took the place of this, he was the ultimate offering for our sins, so "there is no longer any offering for sin"

19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way which he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh,
This is where we confess that we believe in Jesus, what he did, who he is (the son of God who died for our sins)

21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience
Repentence reiterated

and our bodies washed with pure water.
Our baptism of immersion into water

23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another
After we become Christians to not stray from Christ ways but to stay strong through congregating and encouraging one another (one purpose for local congregations)


So in sumation, the steps to salvation by conversion to Christ are:
1. Faith in Christ,
2. Repentance of sin,
3. Confession of Jesus' Deity, and
4. Immersion into Christ for the forgiveness of all past sins.
5. Continuing pursuing Christ living faithfully for the rest of your days.

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

Those are the steps to becoming a Christian.

Once a Christian there are many things Jesus has outlined for us to do to live the Christian life.

 

[bigben]

15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[3] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Romans 7:15-20

All mankind hs a human nature that leads us away from God. Christians do not change in nature: the sinful nature still lives in each of us. We follow a new master, and struggle to serve what we want to serve. The true mark of a Christian is not that they are perfect in action, but that they struggle to be... IF you aren't trying, you probably don't care, and you probably can't claim Christ as master

 

[GtPrOjEcTX]

I agree.