Hypocrisy

[Klixxer]

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Zephyr106

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: umbrella39
Why? Kerry/Edwards going to take away my guns? Nope. I am a Kerry supporter and a member of the NRA. I believe in the death penalty and the right for a woman to choose. I am a devout catholic and distrust in general organized religion. Not everything is black and white to democrats.

Amazing. You and Kerry both - you're Catholic, but profess things that Catholics don't believe in on a very deep level. Maybe you can reconcile these beliefs for me then - how can you be Catholic and believe in abortion?

It's easy - same way I just point to my dog and say he's a cat! He's my pet, so I can decide what kind of pet he is. Now if only I can teach him to say meow . . .

Well I think these mixed signals are very bad. Because for a while we've been telling Muslims they shouldn't listen to clerics who preach hate America, and ignore the Koran because it is evil and the word of Satan, now we say everyone must toe their religion's line or they're a hypocrite?

Zephyr

It has nothing to do with that, and I'm not suggesting Kerry or anyone is wrong to practice religion with their eyes and minds open. However, as one Catholic Bishop once joked, the difference between a Protestant and a dissident Catholic is integrity. If Kerry has major problems with the Catholic Church (and he clearly does), he (and the Kennedys) should end the silly charade and find a nice Protestant church more in line with his personal beliefs. Except it's not politically expedient to do that in MA.

Not everyone is weak enough in their faith to need a church to validate it for them.

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: Klixxer

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Zephyr106

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: umbrella39
Why? Kerry/Edwards going to take away my guns? Nope. I am a Kerry supporter and a member of the NRA. I believe in the death penalty and the right for a woman to choose. I am a devout catholic and distrust in general organized religion. Not everything is black and white to democrats.

Amazing. You and Kerry both - you're Catholic, but profess things that Catholics don't believe in on a very deep level. Maybe you can reconcile these beliefs for me then - how can you be Catholic and believe in abortion?

It's easy - same way I just point to my dog and say he's a cat! He's my pet, so I can decide what kind of pet he is. Now if only I can teach him to say meow . . .

Well I think these mixed signals are very bad. Because for a while we've been telling Muslims they shouldn't listen to clerics who preach hate America, and ignore the Koran because it is evil and the word of Satan, now we say everyone must toe their religion's line or they're a hypocrite?

Zephyr

It has nothing to do with that, and I'm not suggesting Kerry or anyone is wrong to practice religion with their eyes and minds open. However, as one Catholic Bishop once joked, the difference between a Protestant and a dissident Catholic is integrity. If Kerry has major problems with the Catholic Church (and he clearly does), he (and the Kennedys) should end the silly charade and find a nice Protestant church more in line with his personal beliefs. Except it's not politically expedient to do that in MA.

Not everyone is weak enough in their faith to need a church to validate it for them.

So if Kerry's so tough in his faith and doesn't need the Catholic Church, why doesn't he leave it?

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: jman19
Hasn't Kerry said many times before that he doesn't believe in abortion, but that he won't force his beliefs in that religious matter upon the people?

Unfortunately, the Catholic Church doesn't allow this stance. It places nearly equal burden on politicians that would enable abortion as it does the one who would have an abortion.

Originally posted by: jman19
Some of us believe there is a difference between the actions you mentioned and abortion. To most people, drug use, prostitiution, and murder are immoral actions, regardless of the fact that religion tells us they're wrong. Whether abortion is equal to those actions as immoral behavior is not so clear cut.

Try reading up on the subject. There isn't much doubt that it is, indeed, this clear cut when analyzed logically. I'm writing up an extensive web site on the issue - I'll post it when it's done so people can see the arguments that are used to justify abortion and see how off-the-wall they are - they would also have to allow infanticide, euthanasia, and the killing of anyone that doesn't meet a certain set of standards. The most common argument is that of Mary Anne Warren in which a set of arbitrary criteria are proposed that any being must meet in order to be granted rights as a person. Note that her entire stance is meant to justify abortion. She herself admits the following:

It remains true that according to my argument neither abortion nor the killing of neonates (infants) is properly considered a form of murder.

In the first place, it implies that when an infant is born into a society which?unlike ours?is so impoverished that it simply cannot care for it adequately without endangering the survival of existing persons, killing it or allowing it to die is not necessarily wrong?provided that there is no other society which is willing and able to provide such care.

In the second place, the argument implies that when an infant is born with such severe physical anomalies that its life would predictably be a very short and/or very miserable one, even with the most heroic of medical treatment, and where its parents do not choose to bear the often crushing emotional, financial and other burdens attendant upon the artificial prolongation of such a tragic life, it is not morally wrong to cease or withhold treatment, thus allowing the infant a painless death.

 

[jman19]

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: jman19

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: jman19

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: umbrella39
Why? Kerry/Edwards going to take away my guns? Nope. I am a Kerry supporter and a member of the NRA. I believe in the death penalty and the right for a woman to choose. I am a devout catholic and distrust in general organized religion. Not everything is black and white to democrats.

Amazing. You and Kerry both - you're Catholic, but profess things that Catholics don't believe in on a very deep level. Maybe you can reconcile these beliefs for me then - how can you be Catholic and believe in abortion?

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
The most hypocritcal thing I can think of is to run up a record $422 billion budget deficit and still have fewer jobs then when you started spending the money. Oh, don't forget about the tax cut for the wealthy, LMAO!!
:laugh:

That deficit is for 2004? How many jobs have we lost in 2004? -1.3 million I believe? Next.

Hasn't Kerry said many times before that he doesn't believe in abortion, but that he won't force his beliefs in that religious matter upon the people?

So why doesn't he feel the same way about murder generally? The Bible clearly mentions murder as prohibited, so isn't that just a religious matter with which the government should not be involved? And how about drug use and prostitution? Since those involve only consenting adults, why is he still determined government prohibit those activities as well? Or has he gone libertarian and I missed the update?

Some of us believe there is a difference between the actions you mentioned and abortion. To most people, drug use, prostitiution, and murder are immoral actions, regardless of the fact that religion tells us they're wrong. Whether abortion is equal to those actions as immoral behavior is not so clear cut.

Perhaps it's not clear cut to you, but anyway . . .
So if most people think something's wrong or right, is that sufficient justification to authorize gov't to ban such an action? If I think it's just wrong for today's teenagers to put those big silly wings on the back of their cars, can I get it banned by the government if I can get my neighbors to agree with me? What if I think it's wrong to practice Islam? To watch porn? Do I just need a majority to get those banned?

No, I agree that laws should not be made by the will of the majority (and thankfully, our government seems to agree), but I think in certain cases, such as murder, it is absolutely clear cut that it is an immoral crime of the highest degree. There have been sufficient arguments outside of the religious world that make the issue of abortion something that can be well debated, and not necessarily right or wrong (at least for non-religious types).

Anyway, time for lunch.

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: jman19

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: jman19

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: jman19

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: umbrella39
Why? Kerry/Edwards going to take away my guns? Nope. I am a Kerry supporter and a member of the NRA. I believe in the death penalty and the right for a woman to choose. I am a devout catholic and distrust in general organized religion. Not everything is black and white to democrats.

Amazing. You and Kerry both - you're Catholic, but profess things that Catholics don't believe in on a very deep level. Maybe you can reconcile these beliefs for me then - how can you be Catholic and believe in abortion?

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
The most hypocritcal thing I can think of is to run up a record $422 billion budget deficit and still have fewer jobs then when you started spending the money. Oh, don't forget about the tax cut for the wealthy, LMAO!!
:laugh:

That deficit is for 2004? How many jobs have we lost in 2004? -1.3 million I believe? Next.

Hasn't Kerry said many times before that he doesn't believe in abortion, but that he won't force his beliefs in that religious matter upon the people?

So why doesn't he feel the same way about murder generally? The Bible clearly mentions murder as prohibited, so isn't that just a religious matter with which the government should not be involved? And how about drug use and prostitution? Since those involve only consenting adults, why is he still determined government prohibit those activities as well? Or has he gone libertarian and I missed the update?

Some of us believe there is a difference between the actions you mentioned and abortion. To most people, drug use, prostitiution, and murder are immoral actions, regardless of the fact that religion tells us they're wrong. Whether abortion is equal to those actions as immoral behavior is not so clear cut.

Perhaps it's not clear cut to you, but anyway . . .
So if most people think something's wrong or right, is that sufficient justification to authorize gov't to ban such an action? If I think it's just wrong for today's teenagers to put those big silly wings on the back of their cars, can I get it banned by the government if I can get my neighbors to agree with me? What if I think it's wrong to practice Islam? To watch porn? Do I just need a majority to get those banned?

No, I agree that laws should not be made by the will of the majority (and thankfully, our government seems to agree), but I think in certain cases, such as murder, it is absolutely clear cut that it is an immoral crime of the highest degree. There have been sufficient arguments outside of the religious world that make the issue of abortion something that can be well debated, and not necessarily right or wrong (at least for non-religious types).

Anyway, time for lunch.

Tip of the hat for being civil and acknowledging there can be non-religious arguments for the prohibition of abortion. Enjoy your lunch!

 

[PatboyX]

im pretty sure that the catholic church claims that you cant pick and choose what to believe and what not to (ie: if you disagree with the church on abortion, then the church doesnt consider you a member, even if you do) but i also am pretty sure there is no action to back this up.
i mean, if i go protest abortion clinics, i can still sit in on their services (of course) and i can still donate money to them and i doubt very highly that they would give it back.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: jman19
No, I agree that laws should not be made by the will of the majority (and thankfully, our government seems to agree), but I think in certain cases, such as murder, it is absolutely clear cut that it is an immoral crime of the highest degree. There have been sufficient arguments outside of the religious world that make the issue of abortion something that can be well debated, and not necessarily right or wrong (at least for non-religious types).

The problem is, those on one side of the issue don't want to debate anymore now that sufficient evidence is in to overturn their position.

Originally posted by: PatboyX
im pretty sure that the catholic church claims that you cant pick and choose what to believe and what not to (ie: if you disagree with the church on abortion, then the church doesnt consider you a member, even if you do) but i also am pretty sure there is no action to back this up.
i mean, if i go protest abortion clinics, i can still sit in on their services (of course) and i can still donate money to them and i doubt very highly that they would give it back.

There are certain positions that are non-negotiable if you want to call yourself Catholic. There are verses in the Bible that speak against abortion, so one would think opposition to abortion would extend to all Christians, not just Catholics.