Hypocrasy

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: Deeko

Originally posted by: conjur
Democrats are pro-death? Interesting. I thought they were pro-choice. Silly me.

Oh shut up. I'm pro choice I'm obviously not knocking the stance.

The point is, in all four situations, it comes down to being for or against death.

Not quite. People ( the ones that are born ) in most cases are presented choices by society, that make clear distinctions for the circumstances in which they forfeit their right to life. Society, or any group within it, should not be held responsible for bad decisions that an individual might make, but society can be held responsible for making bad decisions. Get my drift?

Obviously, my argument can not be applied to the pro-war/ anti-war issue in the way that you presented it, and additionally, I don't see it is an issue that is drawn upon party lines.

 

[GTaudiophile]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Deeko

Originally posted by: conjur
Democrats are pro-death? Interesting. I thought they were pro-choice. Silly me.

Oh shut up. I'm pro choice I'm obviously not knocking the stance.

The point is, in all four situations, it comes down to being for or against death.

Then use the right word. Pro-death is just ridiculous rhetoric.

And, btw, you ended your sentence too soon:

death of a person versus death of a non-person. While I think abortion, as a means of convenience, is a horrendous act, aborting a fetus is a far cry from killing a living, sentient person in cold blood, via war, or via the death penalty.

And what do you call partial birth abortions, Mr. Pro-Death? Birth a 9-month-old baby until all but the head has entered the world, turning it upside down, jamming scissors into its skull, and then vacuuming its brains out? I'm sorry, but even the electric chair is humane compared to that practice which you, by virtue of being a liberal, support with enthusiasm!

Here is a drawing of the process for you.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: conjur


While I think abortion, as a means of convenience, is a horrendous act, aborting a fetus is a far cry from killing a living, sentient person in cold blood, via war, or via the death penalty.

Here is another example of a distinction, that people think is drawn upon party lines. I tend to think it is a logical thought process that is influenced by things such as religion, education, family background, and other various social and economic influences.

Within the bounds of these influences, If there were a solid and non-emotional argument
that existed, from either side of the issue, abortion would not be an issue.

 

[impeachbush]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
In my opinion, there should be no choice in regards to abortion. A fetus is NOT part of a woman's body. It's not like it's a finger she can cut off. The LIFE developing inside her has its own DNA, and is for all intents and purposes, a different person. A fetus can be operated on, can dream, can kick, and can even experience orgasms. And because it is a different life, it should be guaranteed its own rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness under the Constitution. I don't understand how the pro-death liberals can sob when a baby is left in a garbage bin one day but fight for abortion rights the day before when it was in the womb. There is no magical day during a fetus' development when it all the sudden becomes human life. There is only life in the cycle of reproduction.

Lets outlaw masturbation too. The end product is also genetic material different from whom it was masturbated from (at least with males). Tumors also have different DNA, and depending on what tissue it mimics, the tumor might dream, kick, who knows. A fetus cannot sustain life on its own without the mother. Remember, I personally believe abortion is wrong, but at least use proper arguments to support your case!

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: conjur


While I think abortion, as a means of convenience, is a horrendous act, aborting a fetus is a far cry from killing a living, sentient person in cold blood, via war, or via the death penalty.

Here is another example of a distinction, that people think is drawn upon party lines. I tend to think it is a logical thought process that is influenced by things such as religion, education, family background, and other various social and economic influences.

Within the bounds of these influences, If there were a solid and non-emotional argument
that existed, from either side of the issue, abortion would not be an issue.

And where has most of the hateful emotion come from in this issue?

 

[GTaudiophile]

Originally posted by: impeachbush

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
In my opinion, there should be no choice in regards to abortion. A fetus is NOT part of a woman's body. It's not like it's a finger she can cut off. The LIFE developing inside her has its own DNA, and is for all intents and purposes, a different person. A fetus can be operated on, can dream, can kick, and can even experience orgasms. And because it is a different life, it should be guaranteed its own rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness under the Constitution. I don't understand how the pro-death liberals can sob when a baby is left in a garbage bin one day but fight for abortion rights the day before when it was in the womb. There is no magical day during a fetus' development when it all the sudden becomes human life. There is only life in the cycle of reproduction.

Lets outlaw masturbation too. The end product is also genetic material different from whom it was masturbated from (at least with males). Tumors also have different DNA, and depending on what tissue it mimics, the tumor might dream, kick, who knows. A fetus cannot sustain life on its own without the mother. Remember, I personally believe abortion is wrong, but at least use proper arguments to support your case!

No where did I say that sperm or ova alone constitute human life, but yes, even those two substances are living. It's when those two combine at the point of conception that I am referring to.

 

[piasabird]

I cant see feeding the poor people of some third world power while that power is busy making nuclear weapons or has a program of genocide like the Dafur (Spell) Region. If you feed the people of a tyranical leader, it is like you are paying him for hurting his own people. If you do nothing at least his own people will have a reason to revolt against him.

 

[EatSpam]

Originally posted by: Deeko
To start things off, I can't spell Hypocrasy. I'm assuming its wrong.

Now then.

Ever notice how the two major political parties are so hypocritical when it comes to death/life? Republicans are pro death penalty, pro war, but pro life for abortions, and against pulling the plug on people like Schiavo. Democracts are the exact opposite.

Me? I'm pro-death in all situations. Yea! At least I'm consistant.

Defend yourselves.....go!

I have no problem with the death penalty, with pulling the plug on hopelessly ill people, assisted suicide, and abortion for birth defects, rape, and health of the mother. I don't like abortion used for birth control and I am anti-war.

I look at it like this. I value the life of innocents, i.e. would-be victims of war and unborn babies. I find no value in the life of people who commit severe crimes, like murder. I see no point in prolonging the suffering of those in pain or of keeping alive a body that will never heal. Obviously, there are exceptions to those ideals I hold, but those are my guidelines.

For the record, I vote Democrat and am agnostic.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: tss4

Originally posted by: Genx87
I am republican and pro life and against the death penalty. But I am not against the death penalty for a moral reason but because our system is not perfect enough to warrant the state the right to execute a criminal.

As for the reasoning behind the a-typical pro-life\pro-death penalty typical of republicans.

Abortion is the ending of a human life when it committed no crime. Ending the life of a terry schiavo is the ending of a human life with no crime. Ending of a guy who raped and murdered a 12 year old is the ending of a human life who did something.

Whether you agree with ending human life is a different story.

I cant speak for democrats who are even more backwards when they are fine with killing the innocent but keeping the convicted alive and well.

how are we more backwards? the only death they accept is of fetuses, their being a person at that point is debatable. That's no more inconsistent than being fine with the death of innocent lives in Iraq. Both parties have their double standards. Don't be ignorant.

As for me, I too am against the death penalty but only because it seems to have a lot of problems in how its carried out. I don't actually have a problem with executing killers. As for abortion. I'm ok with aborting embryos about (9 weeks) but past that I'm not so sure I agree with it. The fetus is starting to take on human characteristics (not just a ball of cells anymore).

Really you have to be ignorant to believe a baby inside a womb is not a living entity. You are either sticking your head in the sand or just ignoring the facts.

When do you consider it a human life?

I consider it a human life when brain waves appear. This usually happens about 6 weeks after conception. And about the 9th week they can have dream patterns. And it is really sick to think democrats are just fine with partial birth abortions. Pull an almost full term baby out of the vagina and poke a hole in its head and suck out the brains???

Anybody who is ok for that is one sick puppy. I am sorry but you simply are.

Although I think abortions should be outlawed unless a grave danger to the mothers life. But I would settle with them outlawing abortions after the 6 week mark.

Like I said the genocide happening in this country would make hitler proud.

 

[Deeko]

God this is beautiful. You guys are all illustrating my point to a T. Thank you.

Oh, and to the newb who whined about my spelling, if you'd read the first line of my post I said I knew it was spelled wrong, and that I didn't care. Go sit on a rusty spike infected with aids.

 

[imported_tss4]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: tss4

Originally posted by: Genx87
I am republican and pro life and against the death penalty. But I am not against the death penalty for a moral reason but because our system is not perfect enough to warrant the state the right to execute a criminal.

As for the reasoning behind the a-typical pro-life\pro-death penalty typical of republicans.

Abortion is the ending of a human life when it committed no crime. Ending the life of a terry schiavo is the ending of a human life with no crime. Ending of a guy who raped and murdered a 12 year old is the ending of a human life who did something.

Whether you agree with ending human life is a different story.

I cant speak for democrats who are even more backwards when they are fine with killing the innocent but keeping the convicted alive and well.

how are we more backwards? the only death they accept is of fetuses, their being a person at that point is debatable. That's no more inconsistent than being fine with the death of innocent lives in Iraq. Both parties have their double standards. Don't be ignorant.

As for me, I too am against the death penalty but only because it seems to have a lot of problems in how its carried out. I don't actually have a problem with executing killers. As for abortion. I'm ok with aborting embryos about (9 weeks) but past that I'm not so sure I agree with it. The fetus is starting to take on human characteristics (not just a ball of cells anymore).

Really you have to be ignorant to believe a baby inside a womb is not a living entity. You are either sticking your head in the sand or just ignoring the facts.

When do you consider it a human life?

I consider it a human life when brain waves appear. This usually happens about 6 weeks after conception. And about the 9th week they can have dream patterns. And it is really sick to think democrats are just fine with partial birth abortions. Pull an almost full term baby out of the vagina and poke a hole in its head and suck out the brains???

Anybody who is ok for that is one sick puppy. I am sorry but you simply are.

Although I think abortions should be outlawed unless a grave danger to the mothers life. But I would settle with them outlawing abortions after the 6 week mark.

Like I said the genocide happening in this country would make hitler proud.

Amazing how damn adversarial you can be while essentially agreeing with everything that I do.

You have to divorce yourself of the idea that the far left democrat and the typical democrat are one and the same. I think I would be doing little service to you if I compared you to the far right religous extreme republican. I'm pretty moderate as is the typical democrat (excluding this board of course).

I've recently found out my wife is pregnant! So I've done a lot of research on fetal and embryo development. I think that after reading what I have, I'd put the cut off at 8-9 weeks. (the embryo is able to make appendage movements, embryo is starting to look quite human, nervous system development is advancing quite a bit at this stage). However, if 6 weeks would satisfy the religious right, I'd be all for it. (Unfortunately, it will not). Its iportant to note, that I'm emasuring 8 weeks, the way doctors do, which is from the last day in which the woman had her period. I don't know if your measuring from that point or from the point, the baby was actually conceived.

I would agree that partial birth abortion, is sick. I have a hard time telling a woman she must die though, if it comes to that. However, the number of partial birth abortions performed to save a womans life is miniscule. By the way, why do you think democrats are fine with PBA's? I know many democrats and none of them think PBA's are a good idea. They only accept them if a woman will die otherwise.

The problem is that the extremes are spurred on by each other. Most far left liberals don't so much believe that abortions should always be legal, as much as they're scared that if they give an inch then the religous right will make them completely illegal. Neither side trusts each other enough to come to a compromise (allthough for the religious, I don't think compromise is even possible, but maybe I'm wrong).

 

[kage69]

You anti-choice types would be a hell of a lot easier to take seriously on this issue if you supported initiatives that combat the prime causes of abortions, namely poverty and lack of sex education. The far-right seems to not give a rat's ass about the lowest of income brackets, and for the most part regards sex education like the plague. Sounds hypocritical to me.

Always makes me laugh to hear the fundies try to attribute abortion to the emergence of liberal leaning politics (as someone did here just the other day). Hey idiots, abortions have been happening for a long time, and aren't going anywhere despite the idealogies bent on outlawing them. You prevent a woman from exerting control over her own body legally and safely, and you leave her with illegal, unsafe alternatives. Would I advocate my woman to have an abortion? Absolutely not. Her body though, her choice. Were she to want one, I'd much rather her get it done in a sterile, safe, and professional environment rather than risk infections, embolisms, or bleeding to death in some obscure motel off of I95. All of you shoud consider that scenario, and consider wha would sound best if the female in question was your sister, or daughter, or neice. If you truley are concerned about the preservation of life, then you should have no problem rationalizing that a "maybe-person" being lost is preferable to losing said entity along with the woman. While I've always found PBAs disturbing, and believe they should be outlawed, allowing women to abort fetuses early is a necessary evil. Don't like them? Don't have one.

And enough with the 'but it's killing the innocent' bullsh!t. I don't hear any right-wingers here up in arms over all the innocents our government has shoved in the hole lately over in Iraq. Likewise, I've heard precious little from the pro-death penalty crowd over the numbers of people put to death that were found later to have been innocent. Where's the concern now?

I really wonder how many of you outspoken men would be singing a different tune if you were able to be impregnated, then told by the government "so what if it's your body, tough shit." More than a few I'd wager.



/rant (edit: seen enough of these threads, and have already lost my desire to debate common sense with whatever fundie is likely to have a problem with my post. So get as frothy as you want, I'm out).

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: conjur
And where has most of the hateful emotion come from in this issue?

Duhh. From hateful and emotional people. Heh heh.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: tss4

I don't think "greedy and protective of their power" is the reason quite a few liberals are protectionist. I think its a misunderstanding of economics and an unwillingness to look at the long term picture.

As opposed to the Republican "Line my own pockets big time now, screw the rest and who cares about consequences for the future".

You can justify anything if it is coming your way.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: conjur
And where has most of the hateful emotion come from in this issue?

Duhh. From hateful and emotional people. Heh heh.