Hyperandrogenism Woman Set for Gold in the Olympics....

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realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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I think his point was the same as mine: If one is perfectly normal, then one has virtually no chance of ever being an Olympic or professional athlete. A perfectly baseline normal person simply has no possibility of training up to that level, no matter how dedicated. Ergo every separation and red line (arguably except for sex, but that's being degraded because even absent medical intervention, humans are remarkably diverse) must needs be artificially imposed.

Doesn't mean that mandating some maximum acceptable level of hormones is necessarily impractical, evil or morally wrong, it just means that we should recognize that it's arbitrary and therefore proceed with caution and humility. Sarah Robles and Cheryl Haworth are also far outside the norm for women, yet no one argues that they are not women. To be Olympic weightlifters, they have to be; that's the required starting point, then the requisite incredible dedication kicks in. Semenya is clearly much farther outside the female norm, but where we draw that line needs very careful thought. For someone like Semenya, this might (or might not) be taking away the only bright spot in her life. I'm not so touchy-feely as to say that prohibits drawing a line on qualification, but surely it should not be a knee-jerk thing based on a natural condition. I'm all for prohibiting competition for transwomen or those who have otherwise medically transformed themselves, but when it's G-d or nature, I'm a bit more cautious.

It might take away her bright spot, but that is the cruel nature of life. Some people are born with a defect that kills them before they reach the age of 10.

The only reason Semenya is winning anything, is because she has the parts of a "he" and is competing in a class of "shes". She is in a sport where others are born with the parts in the right place. At best, there is an argument for something between male and female. Sucks, but she genetically is unlucky in most ways. The only thing she has is competing against women who were born clearly women.
 

Blue_Max

Diamond Member
Jul 7, 2011
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We need another straw cleanup on aisle 5!
For the love of gawd, PLEASE learn what a strawman argument even is.
straw+man+argument.jpg
 
Nov 25, 2013
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For the love of gawd, PLEASE learn what a strawman argument even is.
straw+man+argument.jpg

Everything you post?

"Careful! That level of logic and straightforwardness is considered "hate speech" this day and age..."

Clowning is a tuff profession. Maybe look for a new job?
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
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The question is, why do they split sports by gender? Because if they don't, women would not be able to compete with men because of genetic differences. Genetics plays a huge role in sports, regardless of gender. Genetic advantages / disadvantages exist no matter what. However, when you split it up by gender you generally assure that the participants are at least in the same ballpark when they compete.

Obviously there are situations like this where the woman has a condition that makes her physical build more like a man than a woman. It's obvious the women that have the normal genetic makeup of a female have no chance to compete and win against her/him. What's the point in splitting sports by gender if the women have to compete against what are essentially men anyway?
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
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The question is, why do they split sports by gender? Because if they don't, women would not be able to compete with men because of genetic differences. Genetics plays a huge role in sports, regardless of gender. Genetic advantages / disadvantages exist no matter what. However, when you split it up by gender you generally assure that the participants are at least in the same ballpark when they compete.

Obviously there are situations like this where the woman has a condition that makes her physical build more like a man than a woman. It's obvious the women that have the normal genetic makeup of a female have no chance to compete and win against her/him. What's the point in splitting sports by gender if the women have to compete against what are essentially men anyway?

Is it misogynist to flat out state that men are better athletes than women?
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
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The question is, why do they split sports by gender? Because if they don't, women would not be able to compete with men because of genetic differences. Genetics plays a huge role in sports, regardless of gender. Genetic advantages / disadvantages exist no matter what. However, when you split it up by gender you generally assure that the participants are at least in the same ballpark when they compete.

Obviously there are situations like this where the woman has a condition that makes her physical build more like a man than a woman. It's obvious the women that have the normal genetic makeup of a female have no chance to compete and win against her/him. What's the point in splitting sports by gender if the women have to compete against what are essentially men anyway?

They used to do genetic testing that said if you were not XX then you could not compete as a woman. That stopped some time in the 90s and is done on a case by case basis. This girl was tested but the results were never released. I would bet that she has XY but has been told her whole life she is a woman and now identifies as a woman. She has the genetic benefit of a man, but gets to compete against those who are split specifically for not having that same benefit.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
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There isn't really a good place to draw the line on this except two X chromosomes = woman.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
24,882
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There isn't really a good place to draw the line on this except two X chromosomes = woman.
You could go based off of hormone levels. Measure the same or higher than the average man and you compete with the males. That way no one is ever excluded and the competition is relatively equal.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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There isn't really a good place to draw the line on this except two X chromosomes = woman.

That would likely exclude this athlete. Many intersex people who are listed as female and raised as female are actually XY. It is much easier to go down the path as female than male. Intersex people cannot have a functioning penis but you can create something that mimics a vagina. If the person is born with testicles, they can be removed and as the person develops they will look female. This is why the vast majority of intersex are made into female.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
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Is it misogynist to flat out state that men are better athletes than women?

It is not misogynist, unless you are talking to some SJW nutjob. It is, however, not necessarily accurate. First, you'd have to define what exactly an "athlete" is before you can make that statement. Are men as a group better at certain events and competitions based simply on genetic differences? Absolutely.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
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There isn't really a good place to draw the line on this except two X chromosomes = woman.

Seems like a pretty reasonable distinction to make, but I'm sure there are always tricky situations that have to be hashed out.

You could go based off of hormone levels. Measure the same or higher than the average man and you compete with the males. That way no one is ever excluded and the competition is relatively equal.

Hormone levels are not the only differences, plus hormone levels can be tampered with and can vary significantly naturally. No matter what distinction you come up with, there will always be weird issues occasionally, but for the most part it would seem that a simple chromosome XX test would be a pretty simple and fair way to do it.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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You could go based off of hormone levels. Measure the same or higher than the average man and you compete with the males. That way no one is ever excluded and the competition is relatively equal.

No. The reason being that some men are born with low hormone levels. Also, this woman would not be at the low end of male levels. She is somewhere around 10 nmol/L which is way higher than the average which is around 3 nmol/L for female athletes. The average man has has above 35 nmol/L so she is not even close to the bottom of men. Further, when she started taking drugs to suppress her hormone levels she lost a bunch of muscle and got way slower. Only recently has she been allowed to go off them, and again she is way faster. She does not have the levels close to a man, but she is 3 times higher than the top of the women in terms of test.
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
24,882
3,205
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No. The reason being that some men are born with low hormone levels. Also, this woman would not be at the low end of male levels. She is somewhere around 10 nmol/L which is way higher than the average which is around 3 nmol/L for female athletes. The average man has has above 35 nmol/L so she is not even close to the bottom of men. Further, when she started taking drugs to suppress her hormone levels she lost a bunch of muscle and got way slower. Only recently has she been allowed to go off them, and again she is way faster. She does not have the levels close to a man, but she is 3 times higher than the top of the women in terms of test.
Adjust the numbers accordingly. I was just going off the radio that said she was about the same levels as the typical man. I'm no expert in those levels. A cutoff could definitely be created where you need to be below it to qualify for the women's events. Otherwise you are in the men's events.

I still prefer my option above of a fourth category though. I was just responding to senseamp's post that said an XX test is the only way to do it.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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This is just a no win situation.

Here we have someone who as identified as a woman her whole life. She is born with a genetic defect that turns out to give her an advantage against other women.

Then, we have women who have busted their ass to do amazing things with the understanding that they would compete against others that should make it competitive. They now have to compete against a woman that in reality they cannot beat without either the same genetic defect or cheating.

So either you ruin the dream of a person who has busted her ass, or you allow her to dominate with an unfair advantage.

I say unfair because the segregation of men and women in sports is supposed to allow for a division that allows women to compete in a way they would not otherwise be able to against men. Now you have someone who has much of the advantage that men have that 99.9% of other women do not have.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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But the ultimate point was about splitting people by sex. My comment was a joke, but she has testicles. The testicles are what give me the advantage, as they are what produce the higher levels of testosterone. Testosterone is the main factor that gives men the bodies that is the advantage. When a person is born with the hormone producing organs but does not fully form the normal sexual organs of a man, that person is going to have advantages.

If the argument is that people are born with advantages, then you have to explain why we split sports at all.

The answer seems pretty clear to me, which is that we split sports to make them more competitive. In the majority of sports, those born as women cannot compete with men in the vast majority of sports. If we let women compete against men, it would mean the end of most women in major sports. The best women in basket ball, baseball, soccer, football, sprinting, ect could not compete with the best or even average men in pro leagues. As I said before, look at the world records for most sports and see the huge difference in men vs women.
Seriously she has testicles? So women who are genetically female can compete as women even with testicles, and women who are genetically male can compete as women even with testicles as long as they've had a couple months of hormone therapy.

This does not bode well for the attractiveness of female athletes.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
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Seriously she has testicles? So women who are genetically female can compete as women even with testicles, and women who are genetically male can compete as women even with testicles as long as they've had a couple months of hormone therapy.

This does not bode well for the attractiveness of female athletes.

Intersex is a complex and interesting. It really makes you think about what we consider male and female. There are some people out there that are XY that with all outward appearances would seem female. This person has internal testicles. You may or may not know, but ovaries and testicles are related. While the baby is forming, the organs either grow into ovaries, or they turn into testicles. Google androgen insensitivity syndrome and look at images. You will find that many are born with what seem to be a typical vulva. You dont see a scrotum on many and that makes them believe its a girl. Its only later that you can see the difference.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
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Clearly the only fair thing is to mimic drag racing and establish brackets. Dial in your minimum time or maximum score. Whoever is slower gets to leave first; whoever is weaker gets to leave off weight. Then the first person to cross the finish lines wins as long as he/she/it/they/ze/zub as long as the time is not lower than his/her/its/zephyr/rutabaga bracket time. Same with contexts of strength, except substitute throwing of oranges at stronger athlete for head starts.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Intersex is a complex and interesting. It really makes you think about what we consider male and female. There are some people out there that are XY that with all outward appearances would seem female. This person has internal testicles. You may or may not know, but ovaries and testicles are related. While the baby is forming, the organs either grow into ovaries, or they turn into testicles. Google androgen insensitivity syndrome and look at images. You will find that many are born with what seem to be a typical vulva. You dont see a scrotum on many and that makes them believe its a girl. Its only later that you can see the difference.
Oh, internal testes. Gotcha. I can recall a story about girls (especially in Mexico and Guatemala IIRC) who are genetically male, but due to a genetic aberration appear to be perfectly normal females. Generally particularly attractive females, which makes G-d seem like a bit of a dick. Their physical problems are that they have no womb or functional ovaries, and the vaginal canal is only a few inches deep and dead ends. If you thought that abrupt and painful stop during the honeymoon was a buzzkill, just wait for the doctor's visit . . .
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,309
1,209
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Intersex is a complex and interesting. It really makes you think about what we consider male and female. There are some people out there that are XY that with all outward appearances would seem female. This person has internal testicles. You may or may not know, but ovaries and testicles are related. While the baby is forming, the organs either grow into ovaries, or they turn into testicles. Google androgen insensitivity syndrome and look at images. You will find that many are born with what seem to be a typical vulva. You dont see a scrotum on many and that makes them believe its a girl. Its only later that you can see the difference.

All part of God's perfect plan. No matter who they have sex with God can accuse them of homosexuality and burn them in hell forever. Intersex people are his mortal locks to ensure that he has the proper number of souls to burn.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
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I believe the title is misleading and I apologize for that. I am unsure of the correct medical term for her but it could be hermaphrodite.

A traditional woman may not get any medal in this event for this Olympics (or perhaps any in the future).

Whats the problem?

Women want equality, there ya go.

Femenist say women can do anything a man can do, so there ya go.

It is just a matter of time before "transgender" men who are pretending to be women compete.

So liberals, what now?