Hyperandrogenism Woman Set for Gold in the Olympics....

[bshole]

I believe the title is misleading and I apologize for that. I am unsure of the correct medical term for her but it could be hermaphrodite.

A traditional woman may not get any medal in this event for this Olympics (or perhaps any in the future).

What is perhaps even more remarkable is that there are two other women in the 800m who are believed to be in a similar situation to Semenya, suffering from hyperandrogenism, which results in excessive levels of testosterone. These two have finished second and third behind Semenya in almost every race this season, meaning the entire podium could be composed of three women in a highly controversial situation.

Semenya, 25, has testosterone levels three times the normal level found in women and approaching those of a man. Furthermore, she has no womb or ovaries, and instead, owing to a chromosomal abnormality, internal testes.

As a result, her appearance is startlingly masculine: her face and physique bring to mind the likes of those East German female hammer throwers of the Sixties and Seventies, whose young bodies were irredeemably masculated by cruel state-sponsored doping programmes.

Though such figures were often the subject of jocularity here in the West, these women’s lives were ruined and often shortened. And just as we should tread carefully when discussing such cases, we should also treat that of Caster Semenya with sensitivity.

It is clearly not her fault she has the condition hyperandrogenism, which causes her body to produce and absorb an excessive amount of male hormones. Though Semenya, as is her right, identifies herself in societal terms as a woman, many in the world of medicine would describe her as intersex or a hermaphrodite.

So with a physique more typically masculine than feminine, is it fair to allow Semenya to compete as a woman? This awkward question must be asked for her presence in the women’s competition presents ethical dilemmas

One might feel that inclusivity — that she be allowed to compete — is the only rightful expression of the Olympic spirit.

But the reality is that while Semenya, with her excessive levels of testosterone, is allowed on to the track, any rival who raised her levels of the hormone through doping to match the South African’s would be banned.

This is really odd in that women who fit the traditional definition have no chance against these new women. Semenya in all likelihood will shatter the world record in the 800 m tomorrow.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...osterone-man-sparked-huge-ethical-debate.html

 

[master_shake_]

so...

three of what amounts to men beat all the women in the olympics?

NO SHIT!

 

[brycejones]

I believe the title is misleading and I apologize for that. I am unsure of the correct medical term for her but it could be hermaphrodite.

A traditional woman may not get any medal in this event for this Olympics (or perhaps any in the future).





This is really odd in that women who fit the traditional definition have no chance against these new women. Semenya in all likelihood will shatter the world record in the 800 m tomorrow.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...osterone-man-sparked-huge-ethical-debate.html

This whole thing is bs in my opinion. In other senses of the word we refer to them as women, but they have genetic differences that change the relative levels of various hormones in their bodies. Yes they gain an advantage in this. You know like Michael Phelps and his long arms and unusually flexible ankle joints. We don't ask him to wear something or under go a medical procedure to shorten his arms or reduce the range of motion to reduce the advantage over other athletes.

Many world class athletes especially at the very highest levels of performance are going to have some kind of genetic advantage. That's life deal with it.

 

[bshole]

This whole thing is bs in my opinion. In other senses of the word we refer to them as women, but they have genetic differences that change the relative levels of various hormones in their bodies. Yes they gain an advantage in this. You know like Michael Phelps and his long arms and unusually flexible ankle joints. We don't ask him to wear something or under go a medical procedure to shorten his arms or reduce the range of motion to reduce the advantage over other athletes.

Many world class athletes especially at the very highest levels of performance are going to have some kind of genetic advantage. That's life deal with it.

Many traditional women athletes disagree with that....

"I hope she blows away the competition," wrote U.S. 800-meter runner Phoebe Wright, who is not a member of the U.S. Olympic team but has run against Semenya, in an email to SI. "One, I want to see how fast she can run. But also, I want the world to see how much of an advantage she has."
:
"I don't like the idea of anyone being excluded," says Wright, the U.S. runner, "but we have to keep our sport fair, which means deciding where the genetic and performance advantage is too much. It sucks to ask a person to alter herself in order to compete. It's not Caster's fault she was born the way she is; some may even consider it a talent. But would you watch the Super Bowl if you knew who was going to win?"
:
Where, then, does this lead? Perhaps Olympic sports should establish a third gender category: intersex. A more likely possibility, given societal trends: "You put everybody in the same bag, just compete by gender identity," says Vilain. "Right now the social activists are winning. So you can have Bruce Jenner saying, 'I'm Caitlyn, and I'm competing as a woman.' Nations have a huge investment in sports, and they would do this. And that would be a disaster for women's sports. It would be a sad end to what feminists have wanted for so long."

http://www.si.com/olympics/2016/08/11/caster-semenya-2016-rio-olympics-track-and-field

 

[brycejones]

Many traditional women athletes disagree with that....



http://www.si.com/olympics/2016/08/11/caster-semenya-2016-rio-olympics-track-and-field

If they aren't doping and it is the result of natural genetic diversity it is what it is. Its a fine argument to have and I'm sure its tough to put years and years of work into training for a sport only to lose to someone who has an advantage through genetics. We don't penalize men for that and women shouldn't be penalized either.

 

[zinfamous]

If they aren't doping and it is the result of natural genetic diversity it is what it is. Its a fine argument to have and I'm sure its tough to put years and years of work into training for a sport only to lose to someone who has an advantage through genetics. We don't penalize men for that and women shouldn't be penalized either.

pretty much. Sports have always been this way. Some "freaks" are just more "freaky" than other freak athletes.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Caster Semenya is not transgendered. She has the medical condition known as Hyperandrogenism.

 

[bshole]

Caster Semenya is not transgendered. She has the medical condition known as Hyperandrogenism.

.... and I just learned a new word. So this isn't hermaphrodite either if I am reading it correctly. It appears it is a condition that raises the testosterone in the patient. The question then becomes why should it be illegal for other women to artificially dope themselves with testosterone in order to be competitive?

Hyperandrogenism, or androgen excess, is a medical condition characterized by excessive levels of androgens in the body and the associated effects of these excessive levels of androgens.

Hyperandrogenism is one of the primary symptoms of polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS). In such cases, it presents with symptoms such as acne and seborrhea, is frequent in adolescent girls and is often associated with irregularmenstrual cycles. In most instances, these symptoms are transient and reflect only the immaturity of thehypothalamic-pituitary-ovarian axis during the first years following menarche.[1] Approximately three-quarters of patients with PCOS (by the diagnostic criteria of NIH/NICHD 1990) have evidence of hyperandrogenism, with free testosterone being the single most predictive marker with ~60% of patients demonstrating supranormal levels.[2]

Hyperandrogenism can also be the result of excessive production of adrenal or gonadal androgens by adrenaladenomas, carcinomas, or hyperplasia, Leydig cell tumors in men, and arrhenoblastomas in women.[3]:501–2

In women, signs and symptoms of hyperandrogenism frequently include acne, scalp hair loss (androgenic alopecia), excessive facial and body hair (hirsutism), atypically high libido, breast atrophy, and others. Collectively, these symptoms are described as virilization.

Management of hyperandrogenism symptoms like androgenic alopecia, include the use of antiandrogens such ascyproterone acetate, spironolactone, and flutamide

 

[brycejones]

OP you should correct your title to reflect the correct term. Hyperandrogenism.

.... and I just learned a new word. So this isn't hermaphrodite either if I am reading it correctly. It appears it is a condition that raises the testosterone in the patient. The question then becomes why should it be illegal for other women to artificially dope themselves with testosterone in order to be competitive?

Well if purity in sport means competing in a natural state determined by your genetics and work ethic then that rules out doping. How do you determine what is a "fair" level of doping? If someone has some other genetic advantage like longer arms do you have to come up with some other equalizer in order to allow those who don't have longer arms an equal chance to compete?

 

[alien42]

This is really odd in that women who fit the traditional definition have no chance against these new women.

traditional definition, new women? wtf does all that mean, it sounds quite ignorant. humans born intersexed isn't anything new and has nothing to do with taking drugs or having surgery.

here are some current stats for you - http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency

"Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female one in 100 births"

i suppose we should just ban all of those people from participating in sports. if your argument was that Semenya is closer to male than female and should therefore be participating with the men, i could understand, but your attitude towards those different than yourself is disgusting. btw, drop the "traditional women" bullshit.

 

[bshole]

OP you should correct your title to reflect the correct term. Hyperandrogenism.

Well if purity in sport means competing in a natural state determined by your genetics and work ethic then that rules out doping. How do you determine what is a "fair" level of doping? If someone has some other genetic advantage like longer arms do you have to come up with some other equalizer in order to allow those who don't have longer arms an equal chance to compete?

I edited it. I believe a fair balance would be to remove all bans on doping. If everybody is doping, then nobody has an advantage.

There hasn't been "purity" in sports for decades.... if ever. I say screw that, dope at will.....

 

[bshole]

traditional definition, new women? wtf does all that mean, it sounds quite ignorant. humans born intersexed isn't anything new and has nothing to do with taking drugs or having surgery.

here are some current stats for you - http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency

"Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female one in 100 births"

i suppose we should just ban all of those people from participating in sports. if your argument was that Semenya is closer to male than female and should therefore be participating with the men, i could understand, but your attitude towards those different than yourself is disgusting. btw, drop the "traditional women" bullshit.

Well I sort of agreed with Sports Illustrated suggestion of a new category of intersex..... I do think that all the other women athletes that are pissed off about this should not be just ignored like they are not deserving of any consideration whatsoever. Hell if they didn't object I wouldn't object.

 

[bshole]

.....

 

[zinfamous]

I edited it. I believe a fair balance would be to remove all bans on doping. If everybody is doping, then nobody has an advantage.

There hasn't been "purity" in sports for decades.... if ever. I say screw that, dope at will.....

Doping doesn't really bother me, but removing advantages in sports is rather misguided, imo. Isn't the purpose of sports to have an advantage against your opponents? Much of this is simply through training, but many legendary athletes are simply born with freak advantages and that is what we have long called their "gift."

Should Usain Bolt be banned or others be allowed to dope against him simply because he was born with the freakish ability to pump his freak 6'5" legs at the same speed of a 6' semi-man?

 

[Schmide]

She's on par with all the current times for WR and such.

Yeah if it was Usain with Tities, I'd find a problem, but this woman is in parity with her peers.

 

[Atreus21]

When women physically compete against men, men win most of the time.

 

[realibrad]

Doping doesn't really bother me, but removing advantages in sports is rather misguided, imo. Isn't the purpose of sports to have an advantage against your opponents? Much of this is simply through training, but many legendary athletes are simply born with freak advantages and that is what we have long called their "gift."

Should Usain Bolt be banned or others be allowed to dope against him simply because he was born with the freakish ability to pump his freak 6'5" legs at the same speed of a 6' semi-man?

Ask yourself this, why do they split the sexes in sports? Many assume the answer is that we always split the genders, but people seem to forget why.

Here is a quick way to understand the situation. Look at any sprinting world record. It does not matter what one you choose. Then, look at the Men's world record vs Women's and see if you find a trend. The gap wont be small either.

The reason we split the genders is because in the vast majority of sports, women cannot compete against men and it be close. If you look at the 100m race that just happened. The guy who got last place had a time of 10.06s. The female world record for the same race is 10.49 and the Olympic female record is 10.62. If women and men were to compete, the best of the best of women would not be able to keep up with last place by almost a half a second. This is the reason we split the genders.

Now, we know that biologically sometimes we get people that do not fit perfectly into a category. That said, at what point do you start to say that genetically someone has enough male advantages that gives them an unfair advantage. Women's sports are already way less popular and if you follow your argument, you are going to make it even less watched.

 

[dullard]

To me, this begs for a 4th main category of competition: those with a hormonal, mechanical enhancement, drug enhancement or similar advantage.

We could just do sports as a single category, such as first person to finish the 800 m race wins. But, we have decided to split this into three main categories: (1) men, (2) women, and (3) Paralympics competitors (those with a defined impairment to competing). Technically, the Paralympics splits further into subcategories depending on the sport and the type of impairment.

The reasons are that these three main types of people are fundamentally different, for example the top women tend to be about 10% slower than the top men due to a dramatically different hormone level. If we put all people into just one group, then either you have an unfair competition or you basically exclude large groups of people from ever being able to win.

The problem these three categories is that people with many advantages are still excluded or lumped into a questionable category. Doping athletes have an advantage. But, they either are excluded from competing or go through an unfortunate series of lies and coverups. However, it would still be enjoyable to see what the true extent of human power could be. Mechanically enhanced people (think Oscar Pistorious) would destroy the Paralympics competition and have a demonstrably easier time doing their sport than the top unenhanced people. And then you have the class of ambiguous gender people (with a wide array of medical causes). Just lumping them in with the women isn't right either as they have very distinct advantages in many cases over women.

A fourth category would solve all of that. Heck, even changing the men / women categories into high testosterone / low testosterone would be better that what we have now (but not as good as a fourth category since then you don't address people like Pistorious, nor does it address the full range of medical gender ambiguity).

 

[werepossum]

Holy crap, I would not in a million years have suspected that was a chick. Her arms are simply incredible.

With all the emphasis on transgendered rights, I agree that we may be looking at a fourth class - open or modified class. Here's the cut-off hormonally for each class - if you are outside that range, you have to run open class.

Until that time, it's kind of nice that people like her can succeed so well. I doubt her condition brings her much joy in day to day life. Sucks for normal women, but then, normal people don't really have much role in high level sports anyway.

 

[theeedude]

Olympic champions are usually outliers anyways.

 

[realibrad]

Olympic champions are usually outliers anyways.

Yes, the the outliers born with a penis sure seem to do a lot better than those born without. Again, the reason men are better at most sports is because of genetic advantages. If you dont want to split sports by gender fine, just understand that women will not be able to compete in most major sports.

 

[Brainonska511]

How do you determine what is a "fair" level of doping? If someone has some other genetic advantage like longer arms do you have to come up with some other equalizer in order to allow those who don't have longer arms an equal chance to compete?

We'll just create the Office of the Handicapper General. She will sort it out, just like she did with the great Harrison Bergeron.

 

[bshole]

Yes, the the outliers born with a penis sure seem to do a lot better than those born without. Again, the reason men are better at most sports is because of genetic advantages. If you dont want to split sports by gender fine, just understand that women will not be able to compete in most major sports.

In this particular instance, the person is a woman with a condition I have never heard of that raises the testosterone levels naturally. I do not believe there is any evidence to indicate that she ever had a penis.

 

[werepossum]

Yes, the the outliers born with a penis sure seem to do a lot better than those born without. Again, the reason men are better at most sports is because of genetic advantages. If you dont want to split sports by gender fine, just understand that women will not be able to compete in most major sports.

I think his point was the same as mine: If one is perfectly normal, then one has virtually no chance of ever being an Olympic or professional athlete. A perfectly baseline normal person simply has no possibility of training up to that level, no matter how dedicated. Ergo every separation and red line (arguably except for sex, but that's being degraded because even absent medical intervention, humans are remarkably diverse) must needs be artificially imposed.

Doesn't mean that mandating some maximum acceptable level of hormones is necessarily impractical, evil or morally wrong, it just means that we should recognize that it's arbitrary and therefore proceed with caution and humility. Sarah Robles and Cheryl Haworth are also far outside the norm for women, yet no one argues that they are not women. To be Olympic weightlifters, they have to be; that's the required starting point, then the requisite incredible dedication kicks in. Semenya is clearly much farther outside the female norm, but where we draw that line needs very careful thought. For someone like Semenya, this might (or might not) be taking away the only bright spot in her life. I'm not so touchy-feely as to say that prohibits drawing a line on qualification, but surely it should not be a knee-jerk thing based on a natural condition. I'm all for prohibiting competition for transwomen or those who have otherwise medically transformed themselves, but when it's G-d or nature, I'm a bit more cautious.

 

[realibrad]

In this particular instance, the person is a woman with a condition I have never heard of that raises the testosterone levels naturally. I do not believe there is any evidence to indicate that she ever had a penis.

But the ultimate point was about splitting people by sex. My comment was a joke, but she has testicles. The testicles are what give me the advantage, as they are what produce the higher levels of testosterone. Testosterone is the main factor that gives men the bodies that is the advantage. When a person is born with the hormone producing organs but does not fully form the normal sexual organs of a man, that person is going to have advantages.

If the argument is that people are born with advantages, then you have to explain why we split sports at all.

The answer seems pretty clear to me, which is that we split sports to make them more competitive. In the majority of sports, those born as women cannot compete with men in the vast majority of sports. If we let women compete against men, it would mean the end of most women in major sports. The best women in basket ball, baseball, soccer, football, sprinting, ect could not compete with the best or even average men in pro leagues. As I said before, look at the world records for most sports and see the huge difference in men vs women.