Hydrogen

[Calin]

Originally posted by: piasabird
The hydrogen we want to use for cars is a compressed liquid. The process of cooling the hydrogen or converting it into a liquid is what is most expensive.

You can separate water into Oxygen and Hydrogen with a couple of solar panels, but then you have Oxygen to get rid of. Gases like this have to be kept separate. You have to worry about backflow, pressure regulation and other problems. I read an article on a project to do this in a back yard project in the "Home Power" magazine.

There have been a lot of Interesting articles in this magazine:

http://www.homepower.com/

Getting rid of the oxygen... that is a very difficult problem. Especially considering that, if breathed in high concentration, produces euphoria. So, oxygen is a drug. You just can't let it flow outside, you must dispose of it safely
(end joke).
You just vent oxygen outside (or inside, if you choose so)

 

[Vee]

Originally posted by: Calin

Originally posted by: f95toli

Personally I would like to see more money go to research on fusion. Once we manage to build working fusion plants there will be plenty of safe energy that can be used to produce hydrogen that we can use in our cars.

You realize that even a fusion plant is not producing totally safe energy? While the "fusion fuel" and "fusion products" are hydrogen (maybe deuterium or tritium) and helium, the process produces some high energy particles. While the fission-produced particles are alot harder to protect against and are more dangerous, fusion is not absolutely clean or totally safe.

You're right Calin, fusion is not completely troublefree. We are at least going to end up with some radioactive rubble from old plants.

But does it matter? At all?

(Now don't get me wrong. - I'm a treehugger! No other thing upsets me as much as the continued destruction of the Earth's biosphere. I've lived long enough to see a lot of my child and youth time paradises go down the drain. Nothing is as precious and unreplacable as our common heritage.
That's why popular environmentalist movements are so frustrating. They have an uncanny knack for concentrating on all the wrong things.)

Compared to anything, fusion is cleaner and safer. Much cleaner and much safer.
(Fission is not too bad either. Even with worst case scenarios, it's still a contender to coal, oil and gas. But it is currently difficult due to reasons of insurance and politics.)
Coal and oil are total global disasters. (Besides, oil is much too valuable to be burned.)
Only someone very ignorant will bring solar and wind into the discussion.
So at the end of the day, what options do we have?

 

[Calin]

Fusion is better than fission any day in regards of functioning risks, fusion subproducts compared to fission subroducts and the "radioactivation" of the reactor vessels. It could be even much better, but radioactive subproducts/"radioactivation" will be produced no matter what
Solar and wind can help, but certainly won't take the place of other kind of energy. Solar heat is also a good way to generate energy, but is restricted to some places.
Biodiesel and methanol/ethanol can also help, but all farm production should be tied to them, leaving little food available.

Good question... what options do we have?

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Calin
You just vent oxygen outside (or inside, if you choose so)

Or, you store it next to the hydrogen, since it's in a very pure form after the separation. Since common air components (carbon dioxide and others) are poisons for the typical catalysts found in fuel cells, better to make it a package deal.

 

[Calin]

I heard some oppinions about biodiesel not being energy efficient (it uses more energy than it generates).
And I thought it could be so, until recently. When I realized gasoline here is more expensive that edible sunflower oil, and diesel fuel is almost as expensive as that (and will soon be more expensive than that).

I know fuel has taxes on it here, and (while small), there are financial helps for agriculture. But the price difference tells me that biodiesel certainly is an energy solution, and have an positive energy balance.
What I don't know is how much oil can we produce.

By the way, edible oil can be used with very small changes in diesel engines (you just need to heat it up to some 80 *C in order to flow as well as diesel fuel

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: piasabird
The hydrogen we want to use for cars is a compressed liquid. The process of cooling the hydrogen or converting it into a liquid is what is most expensive.

You can separate water into Oxygen and Hydrogen with a couple of solar panels, but then you have Oxygen to get rid of. Gases like this have to be kept separate. You have to worry about backflow, pressure regulation and other problems. I read an article on a project to do this in a back yard project in the "Home Power" magazine.

There have been a lot of Interesting articles in this magazine:

http://www.homepower.com/

There is some very interesting research regarding carbon nanotubes for storing hydrogen, without the need for extremes in temperature.

In a hydrogen internal combustion engine, the hydrogen burns with oxygen turning back into water (it recycles its self).

I think that hydrogen bioreactors are showing a lot of promise for home generation of hydrogen, without electricity.

 

[ArneBjarne]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: piasabird
The hydrogen we want to use for cars is a compressed liquid. The process of cooling the hydrogen or converting it into a liquid is what is most expensive.

You can separate water into Oxygen and Hydrogen with a couple of solar panels, but then you have Oxygen to get rid of. Gases like this have to be kept separate. You have to worry about backflow, pressure regulation and other problems. I read an article on a project to do this in a back yard project in the "Home Power" magazine.

There have been a lot of Interesting articles in this magazine:

http://www.homepower.com/

There is some very interesting research regarding carbon nanotubes for storing hydrogen, without the need for extremes in temperature.

In a hydrogen internal combustion engine, the hydrogen burns with oxygen turning back into water (it recycles its self).

I think that hydrogen bioreactors are showing a lot of promise for home generation of hydrogen, without electricity.

Hydrogen tablet for safe and inexpensive storage of hydrogen