Hydrogen Cars

[Gamingphreek]

Woah! I cant wait. Does anyone have an ETA on these things?? 5 Years with luck??

Pic Of 1 new car concept

Pic 2 of Van concept

-Kevin

 

[Schneider879]

Looks interesting.

 

[Bootprint]

What's the first one, a snow plow? It would never get over some speedbumps I've seen.

 

[warcrow]

"Heres an idea, lets make cars that are new and economical stick out like a soar thumb on the freeway so everyone can point and laugh! WAHAHAHAHA!" - Brilliant Enginner

"OMFG! OK! We are having teh money lol!! - CEO

 

[InterpolAgent]

The car isn't half bad imho...reminds me of the light bike in Tron. Even though hydrogen would be a cleaner fuel source, it isn't really an effective substitute.
1. It takes tons of power just too extract (produce) hydrogen. So we'd probably use twice as much fossil fuels just to produce hydrogen.
2. It's highly volatile. So getting into a car wreck would be like dring dynamite.
3. There aren't any effective ways to contain it quite yet. It leaks from all the containers currently made to hold it.
I was doing some research to alternative energies...

 

[Cobalt]

:Q

 

[MySoS]

Originally posted by: InterpolAgent
The car isn't half bad imho...reminds me of the light bike in Tron. Even though hydrogen would be a cleaner fuel source, it isn't really an effective substitute.
1. It takes tons of power just too extract (produce) hydrogen. So we'd probably use twice as much fossil fuels just to produce hydrogen.
2. It's highly volatile. So getting into a car wreck would be like dring dynamite.
3. There aren't any effective ways to contain it quite yet. It leaks from all the containers currently made to hold it.
I was doing some research to alternative energies...

1. A lot of research is going into this, and people are close to devloping way to produce hydrogen cleanly.
2. They have made containers which can withstand any damage.
3. Hydrogen placed into a solid and liquid state do not leek.

 

[Gamingphreek]

That will be awesome. I wonder what prices will be like for refueling. Would gas stations just start making half the pumps hydrogen and half gasoline and eventually all hydrogen.

Also i highly doubt that they would use H(2) gas i would think it would be a liquid.

I have a couple of questions, so i dunno if any one can answer these:

Is it a much cleaner fuel source?
What kind of power are these cars likely to have? Are they going to be really powerful?
Will they still use Combustion engines or would they need something new?
Speed... the question everyone wants to know. Are they going to increase speeds on highways drastically, or even have some automated controling?
How long 5 years or 10 years or more?

Lol i guess they would have to lower speed bumps, and do something to some of these hills in the country like level them out.

-Kevin

 

[bootymac]

Funky tires

 

[PowerMacG5]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
That will be awesome. I wonder what prices will be like for refueling. Would gas stations just start making half the pumps hydrogen and half gasoline and eventually all hydrogen.

Also i highly doubt that they would use H(2) gas i would think it would be a liquid.

I have a couple of questions, so i dunno if any one can answer these:

Is it a much cleaner fuel source?
Yes, the only byproduct of a hydrogen-oxygen reaction is water.
What kind of power are these cars likely to have? Are they going to be really powerful?
Probably on the order of as powerful as the best electrical motor out at the time. The hydrogen fuel cell is used to produce electricity to power the electrical engine. I do not know a definitive answer.
Will they still use Combustion engines or would they need something new?
What do you mean by something new?
Speed... the question everyone wants to know. Are they going to increase speeds on highways drastically, or even have some automated controling?
That remains to be seen. Switching to hydrogen fuel has nothing to do with speed limits.
How long 5 years or 10 years or more?
I have no idea.

Lol i guess they would have to lower speed bumps, and do something to some of these hills in the country like level them out.

-Kevin

 

[Gamingphreek]

Well i did a little research.

You can either use a modified Internal Combustion Engine which operates with about 20% more efficiency than our current engine operates at.

Or you can use a fuel cell based engine. The fuel cell based engine the only by product like stated is pure water and electricty. SO therefore EXTREMELY efficient.

Hydrogen is also the most abundant element in the universe so we wont run out too soon.

As for the speed limit question, basically im hoping for movie style stuff, which is not going to happen. Im talking like hop into a car, a computer guides the car at high speeds. Probably isn't going to happen in the next 50 years.

RIght now estimates are 2012-2020 until we feel the market shift and incorporate Hydrogen instead of Gasoline.

Addittionally storage was a concern. Now however they used a special crystal which holds it., they can store the gas in a metal more so than by itself, and they can store it as a liquid. Liquid leaks but the crystals/rocks hold it in. The gas can be shoved into certain materials. Overall 1 pound of H Gas is equal to 2 pounds of Gasoline. and has 3 times the energy.

-Kevin

 

[TitanDiddly]

Originally posted by: InterpolAgent
The car isn't half bad imho...reminds me of the light bike in Tron. Even though hydrogen would be a cleaner fuel source, it isn't really an effective substitute.
1. It takes tons of power just too extract (produce) hydrogen. So we'd probably use twice as much fossil fuels just to produce hydrogen.
2. It's highly volatile. So getting into a car wreck would be like dring dynamite.
3. There aren't any effective ways to contain it quite yet. It leaks from all the containers currently made to hold it.
I was doing some research to alternative energies...

1. I concur.
2. Nope- the tanks they have for hydrogen are far more secure than gas tanks. If hydrogen ever goes mainstream, the number of cars will force a few explosions just by probability. The engineers took this into account, they want to assure the public. So they made it safe.
3. See 2.

 

[speed01]

Sure....Hydrogen cars.....Ha! Ha!.. What's next? A machine people can fly in?? Yeah right!!.. Oh wait......

Speed

 

[everman]

We can't even produce hydrogen in sufficient quantities with enough efficiancy yet to make them worth it, can we? Most of the energy used to produce it is derived from burning fossil fuels.
I'm no environmentalist, I just think people are getting the wrong idea.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
Or you can use a fuel cell based engine. The fuel cell based engine the only by product like stated is pure water and electricty. SO therefore EXTREMELY efficient.

Hydrogen is also the most abundant element in the universe so we wont run out too soon.

The production of by-products has little to do with efficiency...what makes a fuel cell potentially more efficient than a heat engine is that it's not limited by the Carnot cycle. Right now, they AREN'T particularly efficient.

As far as running out goes...its relative abundance in the universe has little to do with its relative abundance on earth. We won't run out, but only because there's plenty of hydrogen locked up in various molecules...free hydrogen tends to either react or escape the earth's atmosphere.

 

[bluewall21]

Originally posted by: everman
We can't even produce hydrogen in sufficient quantities with enough efficiancy yet to make them worth it, can we? Most of the energy used to produce it is derived from burning fossil fuels.
I'm no environmentalist, I just think people are getting the wrong idea.

I think that they are trying to produce the hydrogen by splitting water molecules with electricity made by renewable resources, such as solar power.

 

[Goosemaster]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
Or you can use a fuel cell based engine. The fuel cell based engine the only by product like stated is pure water and electricty. SO therefore EXTREMELY efficient.

Hydrogen is also the most abundant element in the universe so we wont run out too soon.

The production of by-products has little to do with efficiency...what makes a fuel cell potentially more efficient than a heat engine is that it's not limited by the Carnot cycle. Right now, they AREN'T particularly efficient.

As far as running out goes...its relative abundance in the universe has little to do with its relative abundance on earth. We won't run out, but only because there's plenty of hydrogen locked up in various molecules...free hydrogen tends to either react or escape the earth's atmosphere.

Hygrogen is a medium for energy.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: bluewall21
I think that they are trying to produce the hydrogen by splitting water molecules with electricity made by renewable resources, such as solar power.

The primary source is the water-gas shift reaction...but that produces CO2. It would produce less CO2 for a given amount of energy than gasoline in a heat engine, but certainly not 100% clean.

Electricity just isn't cheap enough for it to be economical yet.

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
Well i did a little research.

You can either use a modified Internal Combustion Engine which operates with about 20% more efficiency than our current engine operates at.

Or you can use a fuel cell based engine. The fuel cell based engine the only by product like stated is pure water and electricty. SO therefore EXTREMELY efficient.

Hydrogen is also the most abundant element in the universe so we wont run out too soon.

As for the speed limit question, basically im hoping for movie style stuff, which is not going to happen. Im talking like hop into a car, a computer guides the car at high speeds. Probably isn't going to happen in the next 50 years.

RIght now estimates are 2012-2020 until we feel the market shift and incorporate Hydrogen instead of Gasoline.

Addittionally storage was a concern. Now however they used a special crystal which holds it., they can store the gas in a metal more so than by itself, and they can store it as a liquid. Liquid leaks but the crystals/rocks hold it in. The gas can be shoved into certain materials. Overall 1 pound of H Gas is equal to 2 pounds of Gasoline. and has 3 times the energy.

-Kevin

Huh? I don't understand that part.

Also, while Hydrogen may be the most abundant element in the universe (and it's certainly abundant on earth) I don't think there are any current plans to retrieve it from anywhere else than the earth in the near future... And, isn't most of the hydrogen here tied up in compounds, most notably water?

That being the case, hydrogen ISN'T a non-polluting solution to travel. We still burn hydrocarbons to produce the electricity to produce the hydrogen. But, it's nice that the people driving around in hydrogen powered vehicles get to think that they're saving the planet. Anything but. I don't know the specific numbers for hydrogen, but I have read some research that shows that current electric vehicles cause JUST AS MUCH POLLUTION as regular cars. In fact, some people, able to see the big picture, have realized that electric vehicles are actually worse for the environment than conventional cars (particularly when compared to higher mpg cars, rather than SUV's)
Without looking up the exact numbers, gasoline driven cars are about 30% efficient.. 70% of the energy is wasted. Electric cars are NOT 100% efficient... 80 or 90% or something like that.. Which is wonderful. Except, when we burn coal or oil for electricity, we're only about 50% efficient... Better than the 30%. But, 80% of 50% makes the electric vehicles only 40% efficient. Unfortunately, that's not even accurate, since of that electricity that is produced, there are losses to heat in the power lines, transformers, etc... so it's a decent hunk lower than 40%... probably not much better than the average 30% efficiency of gasoline burning cars. Lets not neglect the bazillion pounds of batteries you've gotta put into the car that last only a few years.... And, all our tax money that subsidizes those cars that will get you about 40 miles from home before you have to turn around, go home, and plug the car back into the outlet. Of course, you can stop at the local electric station, next to the gas station.... the line will circle around the block, because it takes a few hours to fuel up each car.



IMHO, the only way electric or hydrogen cars will ever have a real impact on the problems they're designed to solve is if our country more successfully researches and implements alternative methods of producing electricity (more solar, wind, fusion, fision, or whatever it takes, as long as we decrease our use of fossil fuels.)

 

[Weeeman]

Originally posted by: speed01
Sure....Hydrogen cars.....Ha! Ha!.. What's next? A machine people can fly in?? Yeah right!!.. Oh wait......

Speed

 

[So]

Originally posted by: MySoS

Originally posted by: InterpolAgent
The car isn't half bad imho...reminds me of the light bike in Tron. Even though hydrogen would be a cleaner fuel source, it isn't really an effective substitute.
1. It takes tons of power just too extract (produce) hydrogen. So we'd probably use twice as much fossil fuels just to produce hydrogen.
2. It's highly volatile. So getting into a car wreck would be like dring dynamite.
3. There aren't any effective ways to contain it quite yet. It leaks from all the containers currently made to hold it.
I was doing some research to alternative energies...

1. A lot of research is going into this, and people are close to devloping way to produce hydrogen cleanly.
2. They have made containers which can withstand any damage.
3. Hydrogen placed into a solid and liquid state do not leek.

1. You produce hydrogen through electrolysis of water or burning natural gas. Unless people are willing to commit to nuke plants it doesn't get any cleaner.
2. 'any damage' -- sure, but they'll be huge and/or heave
3. how are you going to get hydrogen into a solid state? Liquitd hydrogen is rediculously cold. what you need is some sort of slurry that keeps the hydrogen contained. I'd heard that chrysler was working on something a few years back, but I haven't heard any more, so who knows. Hydrogen WILL leak like crazy, you have no clue how hard it is to contain that stuff.

 

[MySoS]

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: MySoS

Originally posted by: InterpolAgent
The car isn't half bad imho...reminds me of the light bike in Tron. Even though hydrogen would be a cleaner fuel source, it isn't really an effective substitute.
1. It takes tons of power just too extract (produce) hydrogen. So we'd probably use twice as much fossil fuels just to produce hydrogen.
2. It's highly volatile. So getting into a car wreck would be like dring dynamite.
3. There aren't any effective ways to contain it quite yet. It leaks from all the containers currently made to hold it.
I was doing some research to alternative energies...

1. A lot of research is going into this, and people are close to devloping way to produce hydrogen cleanly.
2. They have made containers which can withstand any damage.
3. Hydrogen placed into a solid and liquid state do not leek.

1. You produce hydrogen through electrolysis of water or burning natural gas. Unless people are willing to commit to nuke plants it doesn't get any cleaner.
2. 'any damage' -- sure, but they'll be huge and/or heave
3. how are you going to get hydrogen into a solid state? Liquitd hydrogen is rediculously cold. what you need is some sort of slurry that keeps the hydrogen contained. I'd heard that chrysler was working on something a few years back, but I haven't heard any more, so who knows. Hydrogen WILL leak like crazy, you have no clue how hard it is to contain that stuff.

1. Actually there are other ways to produce hydrogen. There are both chemical and biological ways to produce hydrogen gas.
2. Actually test cars have shown hydrogen containers in cars to be very safe.
3. They have devloped fibers and other materials that act like a spong that can hold a great deal hydrogen in a small area, this is able to compress the space needed to hold the hydrogen into a very small area. Also there are liquide hydrogen fueling centers and liquide hydrogen cars already. hydrogen in a gas state leeks like crazy but liquide hydrogen won't.

 

[DrPizza]

It's been like 20 years, but so what if you have liquid hydrogen... it's going to leak. Suppose you have a container with a volume of 1 gallon. Fill it with liquid hydrogen. Good. Now, use half of the hydrogen. What's filling the container? You've either got 1/2 a gallon of empty space, or 1/2 a gallon of hydrogen gas. IIRC, it's hydrogen gas.

Biological methods of producing hydrogen... Super news! Have you ever heard of "conservation of energy"? I assume that since biological methods don't involve splitting atoms, that any biological method derives its power directly or indirectly from sunlight. You don't expect to take a gallon of water, mix in half a couple of microbes, and end up with a useable amount of hydrogen, do you?

What do you mean by fibers that hold a "great deal" of hydrogen?
A billion hydrogen atoms/molecules? That's a "great deal", until you compare it to the volume of hydrogen that you're going to need to fuel a vehicle.

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: MySoS

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: MySoS

Originally posted by: InterpolAgent
The car isn't half bad imho...reminds me of the light bike in Tron. Even though hydrogen would be a cleaner fuel source, it isn't really an effective substitute.
1. It takes tons of power just too extract (produce) hydrogen. So we'd probably use twice as much fossil fuels just to produce hydrogen.
2. It's highly volatile. So getting into a car wreck would be like dring dynamite.
3. There aren't any effective ways to contain it quite yet. It leaks from all the containers currently made to hold it.
I was doing some research to alternative energies...

1. A lot of research is going into this, and people are close to devloping way to produce hydrogen cleanly.
2. They have made containers which can withstand any damage.
3. Hydrogen placed into a solid and liquid state do not leek.

1. You produce hydrogen through electrolysis of water or burning natural gas. Unless people are willing to commit to nuke plants it doesn't get any cleaner.
2. 'any damage' -- sure, but they'll be huge and/or heave
3. how are you going to get hydrogen into a solid state? Liquitd hydrogen is rediculously cold. what you need is some sort of slurry that keeps the hydrogen contained. I'd heard that chrysler was working on something a few years back, but I haven't heard any more, so who knows. Hydrogen WILL leak like crazy, you have no clue how hard it is to contain that stuff.

1. Actually there are other ways to produce hydrogen. There are both chemical and biological ways to produce hydrogen gas.
2. Actually test cars have shown hydrogen containers in cars to be very safe.
3. They have devloped fibers and other materials that act like a spong that can hold a great deal hydrogen in a small area, this is able to compress the space needed to hold the hydrogen into a very small area. Also there are liquide hydrogen fueling centers and liquide hydrogen cars already. hydrogen in a gas state leeks like crazy but liquide hydrogen won't.

You can store hydrogen in compounds like sodium hydride, which is easy to deal with.

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: DrPizza
It's been like 20 years, but so what if you have liquid hydrogen... it's going to leak. Suppose you have a container with a volume of 1 gallon. Fill it with liquid hydrogen. Good. Now, use half of the hydrogen. What's filling the container? You've either got 1/2 a gallon of empty space, or 1/2 a gallon of hydrogen gas.

Wrong! 1 gallon of hydrogen gas is filling the container.


I caught DrPizza on a mistake! w00t!