Hybrid cars should have manual transmissions

[ShawnD1]

If you think about it, hybrids and manual transmissions are perfect for each other. The most annoying part of driving a manual is stop and go traffic where you need to grind the shit out of the clutch and be reminded of the arthritis in your knees every time you stop and start the car. Hybrids do not need to be clutched in and out like that because hybrid cars do not stall. One could just leave the car in gear and let it drop to zero rpm because the electric motor still works at zero rpm.

This could be the rebirth of the manual transmission as we know it, and we owe it all to hybrids.

 

[Eli]

I completely agree, and wouldn't have it any other way.

I don't think we're going to see the rebirth of manual transmissions because of hybrids, though. I mean, the Prius has been selling well for years without a manual transmission. People just want to be drones, they don't want to have to think about driving.

As for your other comments, it depends on the hybrid implementation. With Honda's IMA, the motor is bolted to the ICE's crankshaft.

You still have to clutch just as much as you would with a regular car, but it is a little different. Since, as you say, the motor functions at 0RPM, and produces a lot of torque, you can pretty much just dump the clutch. Very minimal slippage is required to start off.

I have stalled my Insight a few times, but it's much more difficult than a regular car. One nice thing is that - to restart, all you have to do is pop it into neutral and then back into gear. The people around you don't even know that you've stalled. 😉

 

[desy]

Ultimately I think electric motors are either direct drive or a two speed transmission was tried in a Tesla Roadster but dumped because it was too complicted
No shifting required

 

[JulesMaximus]

Hybrids do not need to be clutched in and out like that because hybrid cars do not stall.

Not sure where you're getting that information. You still have to clutch just as much as a regular car.

I drove manual transmission cars in Los Angeles and then San Diego traffic daily for almost 10 years...it generally sucked ass. Honestly, commuting is the ONLY reason I'd get an automatic.

 

[Howard]

Hybrids should have CVTs.

 

[zerocool84]

First of all, as we've already shown ShawnD1 is the last person to be giving car advice.

Second, people who buy hybrids are not people that are going to be driving manual trannies. Hardly anyone buys manual trannies at all, especially the old or trendy type of people that buy hybrids.

 

[punjabiplaya]

Hybrids should have CVTs.

came to post this

 

[Eli]

Hybrids should have CVTs.

Only if there is a way to manually control the CVT.

Manual transmission suites a hybrid very well. Even with a CVT, there are programming compromises. The car can't see the road ahead, you can.

 

[ShawnD1]

As for your other comments, it depends on the hybrid implementation. With Honda's IMA, the motor is bolted to the ICE's crankshaft.

You still have to clutch just as much as you would with a regular car, but it is a little different. Since, as you say, the motor functions at 0RPM, and produces a lot of torque, you can pretty much just dump the clutch. Very minimal slippage is required to start off.

I have stalled my Insight a few times

The newer Honda CRZ is like that as well. In an article about how it works, the writer states that it turns off in neutral, but it will start the engine when put into gear. The car almost never stalls, but it can stall, and the key must be used to restart it or else do the 1-N-1 change like you said.

It seems like more of a safety thing than any kind of technical limitation. The reason trains are often diesel/electric hybrids is to avoid the need for a clutch. Instead of trying to build some kind of complicated clutch system that won't break apart when getting a train going, engineers decided it would be easier to use a diesel engine to drive a generator then use that generator to drive an electric motor. Zero rpm torque is where electric stuff really shines :thumbsup:

Hybrids should have CVTs.

Meh. Drove one of those before and hated the feel of it. There's nothing technically wrong with them. I just don't want one.

 

[Eli]

To further elaborate.. In theory, a CVT is awesome. If they are ever able to build an infinitely variable CVT that can handle assloads of power, it will be a transmission holy grail.

If you had complete manual control of a CVT, you should theoretically be able to get better mileage than a regular manual transmission.

But none of them are set up like that, and suffer from the same problems that a regular automatic does - computer programming. We've got all the computing power we need right here in our heads. Most just apparently don't want to use it.

 

[punjabiplaya]

To further elaborate.. In theory, a CVT is awesome. If they are ever able to build an infinitely variable CVT that can handle assloads of power, it will be a transmission holy grail.

If you had complete manual control of a CVT, you should theoretically be able to get better mileage than a regular manual transmission.

But none of them are set up like that, and suffer from the same problems that a regular automatic does - computer programming. We've got all the computing power we need right here in our heads. Most just apparently don't want to use it.

I think the Juke or something Nissan makes has programmed "gears" in the CVT and general reviews are that it's awful.

 

[ShawnD1]

To further elaborate.. In theory, a CVT is awesome. If they are ever able to build an infinitely variable CVT that can handle assloads of power, it will be a transmission holy grail.

It's not just whether or not it can handle power or what the gas mileage is. Something important to consider is how efficient the transmission is. This determines whether or not the car is actually drivable.
In powerful cars like a Corvette you can get away with as few as 3 gears and it still performs great. In something with 100HP peak and a little tiny 1.5L engine, efficiency becomes a big deal. If it only has 100HP, I want all it going to the wheels and I want access to it at all times.

In North America it's hard to make a test that shows efficiency differences since it seems to come down to 0.1 second differences. Differences small enough to be random error. Luckily our friends in the UK build ridiculously weak cars where the differences are much greater and easier to measure.

UK Honda Fit
ES model:
0-60 with 6MT = 11.5 sec
0-60 with CVT = 12.8 sec (11% slower)

The manual also has a slightly higher top speed of 113mph vs 109mph. Clearly something weird is going on here. Even when the CVT is able to hold the engine at maximum power the entire time, it still has less power going to the wheels due to energy loss in the transmission. 11% is not a big deal when you're driving a car with a V6, but you'll definitely feel that 11% in something like a Honda Fit or a CRZ or Prius when you're trying to merge onto an interstate highway or when you try passing something. If you want all of that power you paid good money for, then you'll want a manual transmission 😀


I'm really fascinated by the UK site since they post performance numbers for their vehicles. The one for the CRV is interesting because it has premium model diesel as well.
UK Honda CRV
0-60 petrol manual = 10.2s, top speed 118mph
0-60 petrol automa = 12.2s, top speed 110mph
0-60 diesel manual = 9.6s, top speed 118mph
0-60 diesel automa = 10.6s, top speed 116mph

So pretty much any way you slice it, conventional automatic and CVT both lag behind the manual when it comes to power delivery.

 

[LTC8K6]

So pretty much any way you slice it, conventional automatic and CVT both lag behind the manual when it comes to power delivery.

It depends on the gear ratios and whether the CVT is directed towards economy.

CVT is or can be more mechanically efficient as far as I remember.

The Maxima does pretty good with only a CVT offered. It sure isn't slow for a boat.

 

[LTC8K6]

Wiki on Audi Multitronic CVT:

Real world performance

multitronic offers performance and economy similar to, and in some cases better than, the equivalent five-speed manual gearboxes,[1][2] and superior to the traditional automatic transmission.[2] Particular performance advantages are noticed with 'in-gear' seamless acceleration[1] times over equivalent manual transmission cars.[2]

multitronic is offered on front wheel drive-only versions of the Audi A4, Audi A5, Audi A6, and the SEAT Exeo with the 2.0 TSI petrol engine .[4] It is not compatible with the quattro four-wheel drive system, nor transverse engine installations such as in the Audi A3. At first, the torque limit was 310 newton metres (229 ft·lbf), but the transmission is now modified to withstand 400 newton metres (295 ft·lbf) torque.[3]

 

[Eli]

It's not just whether or not it can handle power or what the gas mileage is. Something important to consider is how efficient the transmission is. This determines whether or not the car is actually drivable.
In powerful cars like a Corvette you can get away with as few as 3 gears and it still performs great. In something with 100HP peak and a little tiny 1.5L engine, efficiency becomes a big deal. If it only has 100HP, I want all it going to the wheels and I want access to it at all times.

In North America it's hard to make a test that shows efficiency differences since it seems to come down to 0.1 second differences. Differences small enough to be random error. Luckily our friends in the UK build ridiculously weak cars where the differences are much greater and easier to measure.

UK Honda Fit
ES model:
0-60 with 6MT = 11.5 sec
0-60 with CVT = 12.8 sec (11% slower)

The manual also has a slightly higher top speed of 113mph vs 109mph. Clearly something weird is going on here. Even when the CVT is able to hold the engine at maximum power the entire time, it still has less power going to the wheels due to energy loss in the transmission. 11% is not a big deal when you're driving a car with a V6, but you'll definitely feel that 11% in something like a Honda Fit or a CRZ or Prius when you're trying to merge onto an interstate highway or when you try passing something. If you want all of that power you paid good money for, then you'll want a manual transmission 😀


I'm really fascinated by the UK site since they post performance numbers for their vehicles. The one for the CRV is interesting because it has premium model diesel as well.
UK Honda CRV
0-60 petrol manual = 10.2s, top speed 118mph
0-60 petrol automa = 12.2s, top speed 110mph
0-60 diesel manual = 9.6s, top speed 118mph
0-60 diesel automa = 10.6s, top speed 116mph

So pretty much any way you slice it, conventional automatic and CVT both lag behind the manual when it comes to power delivery.

Good points, all of that is very strange. It goes more or less along the lines of what I was talking about - compromises, though it seems there are more mechanical compromises than I thought.

It makes sense that current CVT designs are lossy, though. They rely on friction to transmit power.

It probably doesn't get much better than gears being bathed in low viscosity oil, as far as efficient transfer of power goes... :hmm:

Why don't they make manumatics? Computer controlled, electronically actuated clutch. Give it a purely automatic mode for the masses, and a manual mode for those that want it. Just shift, the computer does the rest?

I mean, I know they have them.. But if they focused on it, I bet they could get the cost down to where it could be standard equipment. Maybe not though...?

 

[jlee]

Why don't they make manumatics? Computer controlled, electronically actuated clutch. Give it a purely automatic mode for the masses, and a manual mode for those that want it. Just shift, the computer does the rest?

I mean, I know they have them.. But if they focused on it, I bet they could get the cost down to where it could be standard equipment. Maybe not though...?

I'm guessing the main issue with that is the people who want the manual mode would just buy the manual for $lots cheaper, and those who want the automatic mode are happy enough with a slushbox.

Then you have the people who want "the best" and buy an exotic. 😛

 

[Doppel]

Is OP joking?

The best hybrid system in any production vehicle is in the Toyota Prius and it not only lacks a manual but as it's designed could not even have a manual transmission. http://eahart.com/prius/psd/ And if Toyota somehow bastardized it to allow such a thing its mileage would drop anyway because the motor would be constantly out of its peak efficiency zone.

Manuals are dying and hybrids will not invite them back.

Meh. Drove one of those before and hated the feel of it. There's nothing technically wrong with them. I just don't want one.

Not only are autos the future but so are CVT, eventually you'll own a car with one.

It probably doesn't get much better than gears being bathed in low viscosity oil, as far as efficient transfer of power goes...

Like the Toyota PSD? Technically it's not a CVT in the classic sense, though, with continually changing gear rations. When you look around on the link above you really appreciate the mastery of its engineering.

Why don't they make manumatics? Computer controlled, electronically actuated clutch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrohydraulic_manual_transmission ?

 

[Eli]

Is OP joking?

The best hybrid system in any production vehicle is in the Toyota Prius and it not only lacks a manual but as it's designed could not even have a manual transmission. http://eahart.com/prius/psd/ And if Toyota somehow bastardized it to allow such a thing its mileage would drop anyway because the motor would be constantly out of its peak efficiency zone.

Manuals are dying and hybrids will not invite them back.Not only are autos the future but so are CVT, eventually you'll own a car with one.Like the Toyota PSD? Technically it's not a CVT in the classic sense, though, with continually changing gear rations. When you look around on the link above you really appreciate the mastery of its engineering.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrohydraulic_manual_transmission ?

I'm aware of all of that. 🙂 I have to admit that the Toyota system is impressive, works very well and seems very reliable. The Prius also gets fairly decent MPG, considering its capabilities.

Still won't own a car without a manual transmission until they come out with one that gets better than 80MPG highway on a consistent basis. 😉

 

[Demo24]

Why don't they make manumatics? Computer controlled, electronically actuated clutch. Give it a purely automatic mode for the masses, and a manual mode for those that want it. Just shift, the computer does the rest?

I mean, I know they have them.. But if they focused on it, I bet they could get the cost down to where it could be standard equipment. Maybe not though...?

It's called SMG or DSG. Yeah they don't have a gated shifter, but honestly why bother with that? Flipping a paddle is much easier, quicker, and a cleaner solution anyway.

 

[Doppel]

I'm aware of all of that. 🙂 I have to admit that the Toyota system is impressive, works very well and seems very reliable. The Prius also gets fairly decent MPG, considering its capabilities.

Still won't own a car without a manual transmission until they come out with one that gets better than 80MPG highway on a consistent basis. 😉

But your insight gets that MPG not because of the superior hybrid system but in spite of it. I wonder what mileage it would get if Toyota put a version of their hybrid power train into the first gen insight.

 

[Lotheron]

The problem that I have with CVTs is that they always feel like their searching for gear and in the meantime having serious drive train losses. Maybe it's the particular CVTs that I've driven, but I just do not like them.

 

[Ackmed]

Um, how do you expect people to text and shift at the same time? Clearly you have not thought this thru.

 

[ballmode]

I wouldn't turn down either trans if given one free.

 

[Eli]

But your insight gets that MPG not because of the superior hybrid system but in spite of it. I wonder what mileage it would get if Toyota put a version of their hybrid power train into the first gen insight.

It really isn't even fair to compare it, really. The Toyota system is complex and elegant, but Honda's system is equally elegant, just not as complex. It works very well for how simple it is. You wouldn't be able to fit Toyota's system into a car the size of the Insight.

The Insight is a tinkerer's car. With MIMA, being able to manually control all aspects of the hybrid drivetrain adds such an incredible driving dynamic, it's difficult to put into words. The amount of focus and concentration required and the level of awareness of your surroundings is unmatched.

I've been keeping my eye out for cheap packs to rebuild and balance, so I can run parallel packs in both of the cars. Not only does it give you twice the battery capacity, but it should theoretically extend the life of the cells since the discharge current through each pack is halfed - 50A instead of 100A.

I'm building a constant current 350mA grid charger to top off, balance and maintain the battery packs. I'm hoping for a full 15-20 years of life out of them. Just got the three adjustable 48V power supplies and 48V, 350mA constant current supply in yesterday.

Another project I'm working on.. one of the electrical engineer enthusiasts in the Insight community built a small PIC controller that intercepts the RS-485 chatter from the BCM(battery control module), and spits out relevant data on a small LCD. Battery voltage, current in/out, SoC, battery temp, fan status, etc. I've got some 434MHz Wireless Serial transceivers on order that should allow me to avoid having to run data wires from the rear compartment to the LCD. Should be fun!

Of course, none of that really takes much away from the Prius. I'm sure they have an aftermarket following as well. Still wouldn't want one. 🙂 I will never not own at least one Insight. They're amazing automobiles.

 

[Plugers]

I've read somewhere that the Insight's motor has armatures that are modular, meaning you could disassemble the trans and stack motors (similar two the way Mazda's rotory engines can be 2 or 3 rotor and you could do 4 or 5 if you had some machining tools). Is this correct?

That could make for a powerful all electric project.

It really isn't even fair to compare it, really. The Toyota system is complex and elegant, but Honda's system is equally elegant, just not as complex. It works very well for how simple it is. You wouldn't be able to fit Toyota's system into a car the size of the Insight.

The Insight is a tinkerer's car. With MIMA, being able to manually control all aspects of the hybrid drivetrain adds such an incredible driving dynamic, it's difficult to put into words. The amount of focus and concentration required and the level of awareness of your surroundings is unmatched.