Hybrid Cars Burning Gas in the Drive for Power

[OS]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
I think some of you are missing the boat. I love Consumer Reports. I donate every year. But they are far from being the sole authority on the issue of hybrids. CR says their test mule rated 24mpg.

Accord hybrid road test

Real-world testing of the hybrid vs. the gasoline Accord showed that the hybrid delivers 8 to 10 miles per gallon more in average everyday driving. That's impressive.

But at $2 a gallon for regular gasoline, after driving 100,000 miles in an Accord Hybrid a buyer would still be more than $600 short of recouping the added cost.
---
Fuel economy: 30/37 mpg EPA est., 33 mpg observed

Accord hybrid . . . lead foot road test.

Your mileage, as they say, may vary. Mine sure did. According to the Accord?s real-time mileage calculator, I got just over 23 miles to the gallon during my week with the Honda. To be fair to the Accord, my heavy right foot rarely delivers EPA estimates, and I would not consider my mileage to be typical. But that?s the fact, Jack.

Another impressive outing

During our press drive, we drove both the Accord EX V6 and the Accord Hybrid on the same basic route. The Accord Hybrid was noticeably quicker with very strong acceleration, almost feeling lighter when the electric motor provided full boost. According to the gauges, the Accord EX V6 averaged about 23 mpg, while the Accord Hybrid averaged just over 30 mpg.

Edmunds mixed

But after five months of driving the Accord, our best average for a single tank is 30.2 mpg. More disturbing is the average mpg over the first 3,920 miles, which is only 22 mpg.
Best Fuel Economy: 30.2 mpg
Worst Fuel Economy: 17.2 mpg
Average Fuel Economy (over the life of the vehicle): 22.0 mpg

simple truth

Your mileage may vary! I also did not get exceptional mileage from my civic hybrid initially (over the first 10,000 miles there was gradual improvement). But now I am consistently getting 45-50 (calculated when refueling - the computer estimate is often off by as much as 10%). How aggressively you drive, how many big hills are on your comute, and how cold the battery is all noticeably affect mileage. Mileage for the first 2-4 miles is ordinary, so if you mostly do short trips on steep hills, this car is not for you. But, I am pleased with mine.

BTW, the accord hybrid has the most powerful engine, and is the fastest Accord Honda offers, so when comparing the price, attributes other than mileage should also be included in order to not be misleading.

Virtually all of the variables that affect "typical" car mileage will affect hybrids. Regardless, Honda has taken an approach that will ultimately pay dividends in the upper end of the Honda line and throughout Acura. There's mad money to be made by increasing the power AND mileage of cars. But the return will almost always be skewed towards heavier/higher displacement vehicles. Lexus/Toyota will lead with multiple vehicles delivering impressive power and class-leading mileage.

The caveat for HoMoCo is their vehicles were already in the upper echelon for mileage. Under these conditions, the moderate/mixed benefits over conventional Honda offerings is in part just another reason to pay list for HoMoCo as opposed to under invoice for something else.

Cars usually have break in periods where gas mileage improves. Depending on the mileage of the test car, this will affect the results reviewers see. Edmunds seems to have noticed this, that the gas mileage of their hybrid got better. If CR tested all new, low mileage vehicles, their results may not be indicative of what owners will see.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
oh, people that own civics drive 5times more in distance? back this up.

I never said that, jackass. What I'm saying is that choice of vehicle has less to do with oil consumption than driving habits. I'm sure a large percentage of SUV drivers use their vehicles as much as the guy driving a smaller one.

But radical nutcases (like you apparently) would prefer to blame oil consumption on a single class of vehicles rather than individual drivers.

I guess it's easier for a simpleton like yourself to classify then villify rather than take an intellectual look at a problem.

There is no justification for that class of vehicles (Escalade, Expedition etc) that get's less miles per gallon than a 1970's behemoth to exist today.

Only Rich Elitist's would yell, kick and scream to justify their beasts.

Here goes the King of Fools again, spouting bullsh!t he doesn't even understand. I don't an SUV, nor do I care to. I have no need to own one. Some people do however to haul their family and boat to the lake on weekends. But Fools like yourself seem determined to demand that nobody be allowed to own one, even if used sparingly.

I think we should all start contacting our representatives about taking computers away from people from you Dave. After all, a computer isn't a need, it's a luxury, and people like you waste way too much electricity spreading your bullsh!t across the internet. They should only allow people who need them to own computers. There's no justification for owning a computer and using the electricity that one consumes when all you do is post your lies and paranoid delusions on an internet forum.

Think about how much electricity could be saved. I'm sure the state of Georgia would agree with me, what do you think Dave?

 

[Genx87]

The more I read about Hybrid cars the bigger the joke is on the consumer. The EPA estimates for gas mileage and how they measure fuel consumption is easily duped by Hybrid technology.

You arent necessarily getting better gas mileage as you are better emissions.

The simple solution is to denut the current crop of cars and get the "real" gas mileage upto about 50mpg.

But we love our acceleration dont we?

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
I think some of you are missing the boat. I love Consumer Reports. I donate every year. But they are far from being the sole authority on the issue of hybrids. CR says their test mule rated 24mpg.

Accord hybrid road test

Real-world testing of the hybrid vs. the gasoline Accord showed that the hybrid delivers 8 to 10 miles per gallon more in average everyday driving. That's impressive.

But at $2 a gallon for regular gasoline, after driving 100,000 miles in an Accord Hybrid a buyer would still be more than $600 short of recouping the added cost.
---
Fuel economy: 30/37 mpg EPA est., 33 mpg observed

Accord hybrid . . . lead foot road test.

Your mileage, as they say, may vary. Mine sure did. According to the Accord?s real-time mileage calculator, I got just over 23 miles to the gallon during my week with the Honda. To be fair to the Accord, my heavy right foot rarely delivers EPA estimates, and I would not consider my mileage to be typical. But that?s the fact, Jack.

Another impressive outing

During our press drive, we drove both the Accord EX V6 and the Accord Hybrid on the same basic route. The Accord Hybrid was noticeably quicker with very strong acceleration, almost feeling lighter when the electric motor provided full boost. According to the gauges, the Accord EX V6 averaged about 23 mpg, while the Accord Hybrid averaged just over 30 mpg.

Edmunds mixed

But after five months of driving the Accord, our best average for a single tank is 30.2 mpg. More disturbing is the average mpg over the first 3,920 miles, which is only 22 mpg.
Best Fuel Economy: 30.2 mpg
Worst Fuel Economy: 17.2 mpg
Average Fuel Economy (over the life of the vehicle): 22.0 mpg

simple truth

Your mileage may vary! I also did not get exceptional mileage from my civic hybrid initially (over the first 10,000 miles there was gradual improvement). But now I am consistently getting 45-50 (calculated when refueling - the computer estimate is often off by as much as 10%). How aggressively you drive, how many big hills are on your comute, and how cold the battery is all noticeably affect mileage. Mileage for the first 2-4 miles is ordinary, so if you mostly do short trips on steep hills, this car is not for you. But, I am pleased with mine.

BTW, the accord hybrid has the most powerful engine, and is the fastest Accord Honda offers, so when comparing the price, attributes other than mileage should also be included in order to not be misleading.

Virtually all of the variables that affect "typical" car mileage will affect hybrids. Regardless, Honda has taken an approach that will ultimately pay dividends in the upper end of the Honda line and throughout Acura. There's mad money to be made by increasing the power AND mileage of cars. But the return will almost always be skewed towards heavier/higher displacement vehicles. Lexus/Toyota will lead with multiple vehicles delivering impressive power and class-leading mileage.

The caveat for HoMoCo is their vehicles were already in the upper echelon for mileage. Under these conditions, the moderate/mixed benefits over conventional Honda offerings is in part just another reason to pay list for HoMoCo as opposed to under invoice for something else.

omg what a joke, my A4 on the highway will get a little over 31mpg and it is a 200HP V6.

 

[Tommunist]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
I think some of you are missing the boat. I love Consumer Reports. I donate every year. But they are far from being the sole authority on the issue of hybrids. CR says their test mule rated 24mpg.

Accord hybrid road test

Real-world testing of the hybrid vs. the gasoline Accord showed that the hybrid delivers 8 to 10 miles per gallon more in average everyday driving. That's impressive.

But at $2 a gallon for regular gasoline, after driving 100,000 miles in an Accord Hybrid a buyer would still be more than $600 short of recouping the added cost.
---
Fuel economy: 30/37 mpg EPA est., 33 mpg observed

Accord hybrid . . . lead foot road test.

Your mileage, as they say, may vary. Mine sure did. According to the Accord?s real-time mileage calculator, I got just over 23 miles to the gallon during my week with the Honda. To be fair to the Accord, my heavy right foot rarely delivers EPA estimates, and I would not consider my mileage to be typical. But that?s the fact, Jack.

Another impressive outing

During our press drive, we drove both the Accord EX V6 and the Accord Hybrid on the same basic route. The Accord Hybrid was noticeably quicker with very strong acceleration, almost feeling lighter when the electric motor provided full boost. According to the gauges, the Accord EX V6 averaged about 23 mpg, while the Accord Hybrid averaged just over 30 mpg.

Edmunds mixed

But after five months of driving the Accord, our best average for a single tank is 30.2 mpg. More disturbing is the average mpg over the first 3,920 miles, which is only 22 mpg.
Best Fuel Economy: 30.2 mpg
Worst Fuel Economy: 17.2 mpg
Average Fuel Economy (over the life of the vehicle): 22.0 mpg

simple truth

Your mileage may vary! I also did not get exceptional mileage from my civic hybrid initially (over the first 10,000 miles there was gradual improvement). But now I am consistently getting 45-50 (calculated when refueling - the computer estimate is often off by as much as 10%). How aggressively you drive, how many big hills are on your comute, and how cold the battery is all noticeably affect mileage. Mileage for the first 2-4 miles is ordinary, so if you mostly do short trips on steep hills, this car is not for you. But, I am pleased with mine.

BTW, the accord hybrid has the most powerful engine, and is the fastest Accord Honda offers, so when comparing the price, attributes other than mileage should also be included in order to not be misleading.

Virtually all of the variables that affect "typical" car mileage will affect hybrids. Regardless, Honda has taken an approach that will ultimately pay dividends in the upper end of the Honda line and throughout Acura. There's mad money to be made by increasing the power AND mileage of cars. But the return will almost always be skewed towards heavier/higher displacement vehicles. Lexus/Toyota will lead with multiple vehicles delivering impressive power and class-leading mileage.

The caveat for HoMoCo is their vehicles were already in the upper echelon for mileage. Under these conditions, the moderate/mixed benefits over conventional Honda offerings is in part just another reason to pay list for HoMoCo as opposed to under invoice for something else.

omg what a joke, my A4 on the highway will get a little over 31mpg and it is a 200HP V6.

the new A4 2.0Ts (also 200hp) will do about the same (and have a very healthy powerband thanks to fsi).

 

[judasmachine]

any little bit helps, but the ultimate answer is to curb demand to go cruising, and hour and half commutes.

 

[Tommunist]

Originally posted by: judasmachine
any little bit helps, but the ultimate answer is to curb demand to go cruising, and hour and half commutes.

i don't think "cruising" is the major issue - things are just spread out in this country (unless you are in a major city).

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Genx87
omg what a joke, my A4 on the highway will get a little over 31mpg and it is a 200HP V6.

I owned a '95 Concorde LXi for a while, that thing was a monster. 3.5L V6, 234hp (IIRC that was the mfrs number) and it got almost 30mpg highway.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Tommunist

Originally posted by: judasmachine
any little bit helps, but the ultimate answer is to curb demand to go cruising, and hour and half commutes.

i don't think "cruising" is the major issue - things are just spread out in this country (unless you are in a major city).

And if you are in a city you are stuck in gridlock for a few hours a day.
It would be nice if we as Americans could start to utilize the internet and have non-manual labor workers start working from home.

95% of my job could be performed from home using tools we have today. These tools are only getting better as each day passes.

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
I think some of you are missing the boat. I love Consumer Reports. I donate every year. But they are far from being the sole authority on the issue of hybrids. CR says their test mule rated 24mpg.

Accord hybrid road test

Real-world testing of the hybrid vs. the gasoline Accord showed that the hybrid delivers 8 to 10 miles per gallon more in average everyday driving. That's impressive.

But at $2 a gallon for regular gasoline, after driving 100,000 miles in an Accord Hybrid a buyer would still be more than $600 short of recouping the added cost.
---
Fuel economy: 30/37 mpg EPA est., 33 mpg observed

Accord hybrid . . . lead foot road test.

Your mileage, as they say, may vary. Mine sure did. According to the Accord?s real-time mileage calculator, I got just over 23 miles to the gallon during my week with the Honda. To be fair to the Accord, my heavy right foot rarely delivers EPA estimates, and I would not consider my mileage to be typical. But that?s the fact, Jack.

Another impressive outing

During our press drive, we drove both the Accord EX V6 and the Accord Hybrid on the same basic route. The Accord Hybrid was noticeably quicker with very strong acceleration, almost feeling lighter when the electric motor provided full boost. According to the gauges, the Accord EX V6 averaged about 23 mpg, while the Accord Hybrid averaged just over 30 mpg.

Edmunds mixed

But after five months of driving the Accord, our best average for a single tank is 30.2 mpg. More disturbing is the average mpg over the first 3,920 miles, which is only 22 mpg.
Best Fuel Economy: 30.2 mpg
Worst Fuel Economy: 17.2 mpg
Average Fuel Economy (over the life of the vehicle): 22.0 mpg

simple truth

Your mileage may vary! I also did not get exceptional mileage from my civic hybrid initially (over the first 10,000 miles there was gradual improvement). But now I am consistently getting 45-50 (calculated when refueling - the computer estimate is often off by as much as 10%). How aggressively you drive, how many big hills are on your comute, and how cold the battery is all noticeably affect mileage. Mileage for the first 2-4 miles is ordinary, so if you mostly do short trips on steep hills, this car is not for you. But, I am pleased with mine.

BTW, the accord hybrid has the most powerful engine, and is the fastest Accord Honda offers, so when comparing the price, attributes other than mileage should also be included in order to not be misleading.

Virtually all of the variables that affect "typical" car mileage will affect hybrids. Regardless, Honda has taken an approach that will ultimately pay dividends in the upper end of the Honda line and throughout Acura. There's mad money to be made by increasing the power AND mileage of cars. But the return will almost always be skewed towards heavier/higher displacement vehicles. Lexus/Toyota will lead with multiple vehicles delivering impressive power and class-leading mileage.

The caveat for HoMoCo is their vehicles were already in the upper echelon for mileage. Under these conditions, the moderate/mixed benefits over conventional Honda offerings is in part just another reason to pay list for HoMoCo as opposed to under invoice for something else.

omg what a joke, my A4 on the highway will get a little over 31mpg and it is a 200HP V6.

its no joke. its 255hp to your 200hp. think about it. as said, the honda hybrid accord isn't built as a fuel miser. its basically an electric supercharger with benifits. its the luxury model..the highest trim accord with all the goodies.

 

[Tommunist]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Tommunist

Originally posted by: judasmachine
any little bit helps, but the ultimate answer is to curb demand to go cruising, and hour and half commutes.

i don't think "cruising" is the major issue - things are just spread out in this country (unless you are in a major city).

And if you are in a city you are stuck in gridlock for a few hours a day.
It would be nice if we as Americans could start to utilize the internet and have non-manual labor workers start working from home.

95% of my job could be performed from home using tools we have today. These tools are only getting better as each day passes.

well - if you work and live in the same city public transportation is usually much easier.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Tommunist

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Tommunist

Originally posted by: judasmachine
any little bit helps, but the ultimate answer is to curb demand to go cruising, and hour and half commutes.

i don't think "cruising" is the major issue - things are just spread out in this country (unless you are in a major city).

And if you are in a city you are stuck in gridlock for a few hours a day.
It would be nice if we as Americans could start to utilize the internet and have non-manual labor workers start working from home.

95% of my job could be performed from home using tools we have today. These tools are only getting better as each day passes.

well - if you work and live in the same city public transportation is usually much easier.

I wouldnt know since Minneapolis doesnt have a robust public transportation system.
And where I live they probably wont even have service for 15 years. And once they do it is no gurantee the system will get me even close to my work.

But I think if we could get people to work from home it would reduce some of our dependence on gasoline and allow us to use oil in a more efficient way to fuel our industries.

 

[Tommunist]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Tommunist

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Tommunist

Originally posted by: judasmachine
any little bit helps, but the ultimate answer is to curb demand to go cruising, and hour and half commutes.

i don't think "cruising" is the major issue - things are just spread out in this country (unless you are in a major city).

And if you are in a city you are stuck in gridlock for a few hours a day.
It would be nice if we as Americans could start to utilize the internet and have non-manual labor workers start working from home.

95% of my job could be performed from home using tools we have today. These tools are only getting better as each day passes.

well - if you work and live in the same city public transportation is usually much easier.

I wouldnt know since Minneapolis doesnt have a robust public transportation system.
And where I live they probably wont even have service for 15 years. And once they do it is no gurantee the system will get me even close to my work.

But I think if we could get people to work from home it would reduce some of our dependence on gasoline and allow us to use oil in a more efficient way to fuel our industries.

it certainly would help...

back to the public transportation thing - if the city you live in doesn't have decent public transportation:

1. your city isn't really all that big and when you talk about "traffic" you don't really know what traffic is all about 😛
2. your city is way behind and needs to get up to speed

Currently - living in Cambridge, I could pretty easily get to anywhere in Cambridge or Boston using the public transportation system. I happen to work outside Boston and the immediate area though so I have to drive. I do however deal with almost no traffic b/c most people are driving into the city in the morning and leaving at night.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Tommunist

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Tommunist

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Tommunist

Originally posted by: judasmachine
any little bit helps, but the ultimate answer is to curb demand to go cruising, and hour and half commutes.

i don't think "cruising" is the major issue - things are just spread out in this country (unless you are in a major city).

And if you are in a city you are stuck in gridlock for a few hours a day.
It would be nice if we as Americans could start to utilize the internet and have non-manual labor workers start working from home.

95% of my job could be performed from home using tools we have today. These tools are only getting better as each day passes.

well - if you work and live in the same city public transportation is usually much easier.

I wouldnt know since Minneapolis doesnt have a robust public transportation system.
And where I live they probably wont even have service for 15 years. And once they do it is no gurantee the system will get me even close to my work.

But I think if we could get people to work from home it would reduce some of our dependence on gasoline and allow us to use oil in a more efficient way to fuel our industries.

it certainly would help...

back to the public transportation thing - if the city you live in doesn't have decent public transportation:

1. your city isn't really all that big and when you talk about "traffic" you don't really know what traffic is all about 😛
2. your city is way behind and needs to get up to speed

Currently - living in Cambridge, I could pretty easily get to anywhere in Cambridge or Boston using the public transportation system. I happen to work outside Boston and the immediate area though so I have to drive. I do however deal with almost no traffic b/c most people are driving into the city in the morning and leaving at night.

It is a city of about 2.5 million people. It isnt huge by any stretch of the imagination but our problems stem from a poorly planned transportation system. Basically they built two lane highways in the 1960s and decided the city would never grow enough to congest it.

Now you go on the road at 3:00 and it is a parking lot. They are trying to add lanes to all the freeways but that wont be done until 2010 and then they will have to start up adding more as we are expected to add about 2 million more people by 2025. They had a great trolley system in the 1950s that got shutdown by the bus. Now they are trying to add light rail which is better imo than a bus but it will be built too slow for it to be useful. Currently it has 1 route and it services almost nobody. Basically the airport, to mall of america and then to downtown.

I live in a growing development about 30 miles out of the city and they are planning on running a highspeed train down the i-94 corridor between St. Cloud and Minneapolis. I should be able to pick this up easy as I am only a mile from the I-94, but that wont even probably start to be built until 2010 with it being finished maybe 10 years later.

 

[arsbanned]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: Engineer
Hybrid cars are a small bandaid and, with cars like the accord showing up with little or no extra mileage (just the hybrid name sex appeal), it's not going to help anyone buy the automaker,s (such as Honda) bottom line from the extra money made on each hybrid.

If every hybrid were like a Prius, then then some useful conservation would come of it, but not the way the automakers are doing it now.

As long as cars are using oil and car numbers are increasing, oil consumption is going to go up.

For most people the prius is not a practical car.

Well then "most people" have to change. That's the problem. Fat azzed Americans with their fat SUVs are not going to fix the problem, even with a generator under the hood.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: arsbanned
Well then "most people" have to change. That's the problem. Fat azzed Americans with their fat SUVs are not going to fix the problem, even with a generator under the hood.

Look, another freedom hating liberal!

"I don't like your lifestyle, so you have to change."

 

[arsbanned]

Look, another arrogant fat cat who wants to bomb the whole World to feed his insatiable appetite for oil!
"I want to drive my big behind around in my Escalade so fvck you World!"

Back to you.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: arsbanned
Look, another arrogant fat cat who wants to bomb the whole World to feed his insatiable appetite for oil!
"I want to drive my big behind around in my Escalade so fvck you World!"

Back to you.

Look, another ignorant fool projecting his hatred onto anyone who disagrees with him.

"I'm a Democrat so I know how to run the world better than anyone else, even if I don't know what kind of car the person I'm attempting to insult drives."

Your ball.

 

[arsbanned]

Look, a retarded moron projecting his insane hatred of the "left" into a discussion on cars.

"I'm a Republican and can't seem to separate my dislike for Democrats from any other type of issue."

Back to you>

 

[rudder]

my next car will be a diesel.

Older diesel versus hybrid story.

Plus you can put in biodiesel

Diesel engines have a bad rap in this country for some reason. But as many as said the hybrids can be more expensive to repair and depending on your driving profile you may not save a whole lot in terms of fuel efficiency.

 

[arsbanned]

Yeah, the Volkwagen TDI gets upwards of 50 MPG on the highway. I wish the TDI Passat had been available when I bought my Passat Wagon ('03)
The big drawback with Diesel is particulate matter, they tend to pollute more, though the Volkswagens are extremely clean burning powerplants.

 

[Engineer]

Sorry arsbanned, but you can buy anything that's for sale as long as you have the money, and in most cases, that doesn't matter either because you can finance your @ss off to get it. You can then complain all day long about your gas prices, etc. Might be hypocritical, but that's America.

Now as for wars to get oil for them, that sucks. I really look for it to get worse before it gets better.

Hybids will help if they are done right, but they aren't the long term solution. Adding a few % in MPG helps, but not enough to stretch oil by but a few more years.

P.S. Both you guys can complain about the other....it's both your rights as long as you don't try to take the other's away.

 

[drewshin]

Originally posted by: charrison
[Hybrid technology is a step in the right direction, but by no means a cure for getting off of oil...

I think we all know it's not a cure for getting off oil, it needs it to run. Everyone knows its a step in the right direction, I haven't heard anyone say they were the end-all of cars that will ever be made.

The other advantage of hybrids is cars like the Prius and Ford Escape Hybrid are SULEVs which emit 90% less emissions than your average car. The Honda hybrids are ULEVs which are have 50% less emissions.

 

[desy]

1 Driving a car is a privelage NOT a right
2 foreign dependance on oil has been identified as a National security issue.

So knowing that all things are regulated and you don't have a right to drive whatever you want, ever seen any formula one cars on the highway? Get used to the fact you will see greater restrictions on the type of vehicles on the road or penalties and rewards on types of vehicles. Long over due IMO, 2/3s of Oil is used to fuel cars.
You want to make a dent on dependance? Cars are a great place to start.

I think Diesel engines and bio deisel would go a very long way to self reliance.
Europe uses clean diesel and so wil NA very soon, particulate matter doesn't seem to be an issue their very dense population.
The toyota diesel hybrid gets over 100 MPG and blows a regular 3 cylinder diesel out of the water for power.They had this thing built 5 yrs ago!!!!

 

[arsbanned]

Originally posted by: Engineer
Sorry arsbanned, but you can buy anything that's for sale as long as you have the money, and in most cases, that doesn't matter either because you can finance your @ss off to get it. You can then complain all day long about your gas prices, etc. Might be hypocritical, but that's America.

Now as for wars to get oil for them, that sucks. I really look for it to get worse before it gets better.

Hybids will help if they are done right, but they aren't the long term solution. Adding a few % in MPG helps, but not enough to stretch oil by but a few more years.

P.S. Both you guys can complain about the other....it's both your rights as long as you don't try to take the other's away.

Word up brutha. :thumbsup: