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Huntsman now supports same-sex marriage

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They lost by 4% running a candidate with zero personal charisma who flip-flopped at the drop of a hat. Maybe they can try running a candidate who doesn't suck?

You dont seem to appreciate the dilemma that the Republican party is in. The Republican party base, that would be people like you, is so far out of the mainstream that the rightward lurch required to secure the nomination makes current Republican candidates almost unelectable once they have to put themselves before the general electorate. The last Republican primaries were almost comical to watch if it wasn't so sad. I can only imagine the agony of the Republican leadership as they quietly support the only candidate that halfway resembles a statesman (Romney), while the base shifts their adoration from one buffoon to the next that has no chance in the general election. I mean really, Michelle Bachman? Rick Perry? Santorum?

This perfect candidate you seek that is artful enough to polish up the turd that is the evangelical social agenda and make it palatable to the general electorate doesnt exist. It's the message itself that is the problem, not the delivery, and until the Republican faithful realize that, they will keep losing elections.
 
Nehalem thinks that definitions are binding.

I have to laugh. 🙄

Your definition of marriage has absolutely nothing in common with the traditional definition of marriage other than it involves people.

If the relationship you are talking about has nothing in common with traditional marriage why are you using the same word? Except for the obvious fact that your are trying to get the benefits of marriage for a non-marital relationship.
 
You dont seem to appreciate the dilemma that the Republican party is in. The Republican party base, that would be people like you, is so far out of the mainstream that the rightward lurch required to secure the nomination makes current Republican candidates almost unelectable once they have to put themselves before the general electorate. The last Republican primaries were almost comical to watch if it wasn't so sad. I can only imagine the agony of the Republican leadership as they quietly support the only candidate that halfway resembles a statesman (Romney), while the base shifts their adoration from one buffoon to the next that has no chance in the general election. I mean really, Michelle Bachman? Rick Perry? Santorum?

This perfect candidate you seek that is artful enough to polish up the turd that is the evangelical social agenda and make it palatable to the general electorate doesnt exist. It's the message itself that is the problem, not the delivery, and until the Republican faithful realize that, they will keep losing elections.

Picture a Mitt Romney who was relatable to people and didn't flip-flop on every issue at least twice. You don't think that person could have won in 2012?
 
Picture a Mitt Romney who was relatable to people and didn't flip-flop on every issue at least twice. You don't think that person could have won in 2012?

That all depends. If the Republican candidate was a moderate with a consistent message, that election was ripe for the taking, but we all know by now that moderates are not tolerated in the Republican party anymore. I've actually heard Republicans on Fox News throw around the word "moderate" like they do the word "liberal", like it's an insult or something.
 
Everyone does have the same right.

Everyone has the right to marry a single person of the opposite sex.

The government is not making any distinction between gay or straight individuals, but merely between gay and straight couples.

Billy Bob and Sally Sue* are also prohibited from marrying each other. And yet you don't see anyone crying about illegal discrimination in this case.


*assume Billy Bob and Sally Sue are siblings

Replace gender with race\ethnicity
Everyone has the right to marry a single person of the same race.

The government is not making any distinction between black or white individuals, but merely between inter-racial and non inter-racial couples.
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/11/12/weekinreview/november-5-11-marry-at-will.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loving_v._Virginia

Came across this little quip too

History of marriage

The plaintiffs called expert witness Nancy Cott, an American history scholar, who testified that "marriage has never been universally defined as a union of one man and one woman, and that religion has never had any bearing on the legality of a marriage".[59] The next day, she continued her testimony, which revolved around three key points: how marriage has historically been used "punitively" to demean disfavored groups, how the legally enshrined gender roles in marriage had been disestablished during the 20th century and how the changes in the institution of marriage had mainly involved "shedding inequalities", which she said strengthens marriage.[65] She emphasized the importance of the institution of marriage by noting that "when slaves were emancipated, they flocked to get married. And this was not trivial to them, by any means".[66]
Cott was then cross-examined by David Thompson, who asked about her personal feelings on marriage equality to establish that she was an advocate rather than a dispassionate scholar.[67] Defense counsel argued that marriage has traditionally been between a man and a woman because it provided a stable unit for procreation and child rearing.[68][69]
so lets talk about that last bit
Procreation and child rearing.
Procreation
In the past, with mortality rates, economic factors cultural whatever...Marriage between two people that could pump out kids at a decent clip without the kids dying was a "win"
since Men can't shit babies and women don't spit sperm....you kinda of need dude and dudette.
...after a brief look at the WHO profile for the US. I don't think thats an issue anymore.
In the modern day...with electricty and HMO's and internet porn...a baby can be born in a dumpster, fed a steady diety of coca-cola and cheetohs and that baby can be expected to live to 70 + years old.
Procreation is not a huge concern in the United states. We have a healthy growth rate and government doesn't need to introduce policy to keep women knocked up baby factories.
We have lots of babies to go around.
Anyone can adopt\ or work with modern medicine (donors...evil clones) to fill a crib.

Lets talk about child rearing.
If a single female can successfully raise a child
and
a single male can successfully raise a child
and
a divorced female and male can successfully raise a child
a married female and male can successfully raise a child
then it is reasonable to assume that
2 females can successfully raise a child
and 2 males can successfully raise a child.

I think you would have to be a candidate for gene therapy or traditional "retard" hat to believe otherwise.


As for the "cultural value" of marriage between man and women.
the divorce rate would like a word with you.

I'm tempted to compare it to the cultural value of "In god we trust" on our currency.
Knight of Columbus hall around the country would like you to rent the hall if you want to have a community forum about it.



Please keep in mind that I'm just posting in this thread because I'm procrastinating on something else.
 
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Your definition of marriage has absolutely nothing in common with the traditional definition of marriage other than it involves people.

If the relationship you are talking about has nothing in common with traditional marriage why are you using the same word? Except for the obvious fact that your are trying to get the benefits of marriage for a non-marital relationship.

Except it dosen't have "nothing in common". It actually has quite a few features in common with the tradition that you want to cling to.
 
Your definition of marriage has absolutely nothing in common with the traditional definition of marriage other than it involves people.

If the relationship you are talking about has nothing in common with traditional marriage why are you using the same word? Except for the obvious fact that your are trying to get the benefits of marriage for a non-marital relationship.

My definition of marriage, shared with a majority population in the U.S. as well as many other advanced, Western nations, is that it is the formal recognition of a committed monogamous relationship between two adults who are sufficiently distantly related, who are both capable of giving consent and who have both given consent. Additionally, marriage is a state-recognized institution and affords certain benefits to members of those unions in recognition of the benefits committed, monogamous relationships provide to Western nations and their values (benefits including the promotion of stable and equitable social structures [as opposed to more violent and sexually dimorphic structures seen in harem-based cultures] and engendering a powerful vehicle for providing resources and care for the rearing of children [regardless of whether those children are conceived within that marriage or not]).

So, this definition of marriage is rather a bit more complex than "it involves people". It also shares rather a lot with the traditional definition, merely opening up the institution to partners of the same sex.
 
Except it dosen't have "nothing in common". It actually has quite a few features in common with the tradition that you want to cling to.

Okay, I will borrow the definition from the Catholic Church as a fairly good example of the traditional definition of marriage

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_(Catholic_Church)
"covenant by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life and which is ordered by its nature to the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring./quote]

So lets address this compared to the modern liberal definition of marriage.

(1) Is marriage between a man and a woman... no

(2) Is marriage a partnership of the whole of life.. no, people are free to divorce at any time for any reason

(3) Is it about procreation... clearly not

So how is the liberal definition of marriage similar to the traditional definition again? 😕
 
Replace gender with race\ethnicity
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/11/12/weekinreview/november-5-11-marry-at-will.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loving_v._Virginia

Came across this little quip too


so lets talk about that last bit
Procreation and child rearing.
Procreation
In the past, with mortality rates, economic factors cultural whatever...Marriage between two people that could pump out kids at a decent clip without the kids dying was a "win"
since Men can't shit babies and women don't spit sperm....you kinda of need dude and dudette.
...after a brief look at the WHO profile for the US. I don't think thats an issue anymore.
In the modern day...with electricty and HMO's and internet porn...a baby can be born in a dumpster, fed a steady diety of coca-cola and cheetohs and that baby can be expected to live to 70 + years old.
Procreation is not a huge concern in the United states. We have a healthy growth rate and government doesn't need to introduce policy to keep women knocked up baby factories.
We have lots of babies to go around.
Anyone can adopt\ or work with modern medicine (donors...evil clones) to fill a crib.

So we don't need marriage anymore. Hard to see how go from we don't need marriage therefore we should expand it.

Lets talk about child rearing.
If a single female can successfully raise a child
and
a single male can successfully raise a child
and
a divorced female and male can successfully raise a child
a married female and male can successfully raise a child
then it is reasonable to assume that
2 females can successfully raise a child
and 2 males can successfully raise a child.

I think you would have to be a candidate for gene therapy or traditional "retard" hat to believe otherwise.

Have you looked at the poverty rate of single mothers? Or the likelihood of crimes committed by the children of single mothers?

And of course how do you prevent single mothers? 😕

As for the "cultural value" of marriage between man and women.
the divorce rate would like a word with you.

I have on multiple occasions spoken against no-fault divorce.
 
My definition of marriage, shared with a majority population in the U.S. as well as many other advanced, Western nations, is that it is the formal recognition of a committed monogamous relationship between two adults who are sufficiently distantly related, who are both capable of giving consent and who have both given consent.

So there is no problem with marriage discriminating huh? At least when it comes to siblings loving each other huh?

Also, committed is probably a bad word given the liberal acceptance of no-fault divorce. Doesn't sound to committed to me if you can leave end the relationship for any reason you feel like.

Also, ever hear of an open marriage? Should those be condemned?
 
So we don't need marriage anymore. Hard to see how go from we don't need marriage therefore we should expand it.
We don't need laws regulating marriage. We need universal laws that recognizes the legal status of two people.
If I die or get ill...my wife has legal authority.

If zsdersw dies or gets ill his partner (I don't know if he is a top or bottom so I cant say husband or wife) should have that same legal authority under the same set of laws.

Have you looked at the poverty rate of single mothers? Or the likelihood of crimes committed by the children of single mothers?

And of course how do you prevent single mothers? 😕
Pair them up with another single mother. BAM!!! Problem solved.

I have on multiple occasions spoken against no-fault divorce.

You are against one party having the ability to get a divorce?
I can think of both pros and cons on that one. In other words, that's cool. I guess I have never really thought about no-fault divorce.
 
You are against one party having the ability to get a divorce?
I can think of both pros and cons on that one. In other words, that's cool. I guess I have never really thought about no-fault divorce.

No, he's against the idea that marriage can be easily and casually thrown away; that there is no legal/financial consequence for ending a marriage.

I'm against that, too... but I find that when he and other anti-SSM people use that argument they're only doing so because SSM is on the radar. If SSM had not been an idea in anyone's mind, would he and others decry the throw-away, drive-thru institution that marriage has become? I highly doubt it.
 
No, he's against the idea that marriage can be easily and casually thrown away; that there is no legal/financial consequence for ending a marriage.

I got that...

that there is no legal/financial consequence for ending a marriage.

Oh...just wait until you folks can marry and raise kids.
You're in for a treat
 
We don't need laws regulating marriage. We need universal laws that recognizes the legal status of two people.
If I die or get ill...my wife has legal authority.

Why not 3 or 4? What makes 2 so special?

If zsdersw dies or gets ill his partner (I don't know if he is a top or bottom so I cant say husband or wife) should have that same legal authority under the same set of laws.

Or he could just name his partner as his healthcare proxy. Wow. Its almost like society came up with a solution for that problems that helps gay people and single people. Imagine that.

Pair them up with another single mother. BAM!!! Problem solved.

:hmm: So teaming up 2 dysfunctional families will create a functional one?

You are against one party having the ability to get a divorce?
I can think of both pros and cons on that one. In other words, that's cool. I guess I have never really thought about no-fault divorce.

If people want to claim that marriage is a committed relationship allowing one person to unilaterally end it for any reason seems rather silly.
 
Why not 3 or 4? What makes 2 so special?
If you want to extend this conversation topolygamy laws and the history around them in the US, I'm going to ask for a paypal donation.

Or he could just name his partner as his healthcare proxy. Wow. Its almost like society came up with a solution for that problems that helps gay people and single people. Imagine that.
Then the same should be said for a Male\Female marriage, that by default you do not have any say unless you sign this healthcare proxy.


:hmm: So teaming up 2 dysfunctional families will create a functional one?
Dysfunctional usually arises out of economic reasons and those economic reasons lesbo'd out with two potential wage earners\care givers.

If people want to claim that marriage is a committed relationship allowing one person to unilaterally end it for any reason seems rather silly.

I can respect that opinion.
 
So there is no problem with marriage discriminating huh? At least when it comes to siblings loving each other huh?

Also, committed is probably a bad word given the liberal acceptance of no-fault divorce. Doesn't sound to committed to me if you can leave end the relationship for any reason you feel like.

Also, ever hear of an open marriage? Should those be condemned?

No problem at all. Society defines marriage and the benefits it extends to members of those unions based upon the reciprocal value of those unions to society. As society matures past its "gays are icky" phase, it sees that there is no appreciable difference between same-sex unions and opposite-sex unions, so it is natural to extend traditional marriage benefits to same-sex couples.

If you want to continue to obsess about what "committed" means that's your right, but in Western culture, divorce has always (excepting the RCC-dominated dark ages) been a tradition part of marriage, through the Greco-Roman period and again starting with the Reformation. So I'm not sure why you are so hell-bent on redefining traditional marriage.
 
Your definition of marriage has absolutely nothing in common with the traditional definition of marriage other than it involves people.
What difference does that make?

If the relationship you are talking about has nothing in common with traditional marriage why are you using the same word?
False premise, and because it is a marriage.


Except for the obvious fact that your are trying to get the benefits of marriage for a non-marital relationship.

The only obvious fact is that you're a bigoted cretin.
 
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No problem at all. Society defines marriage and the benefits it extends to members of those unions based upon the reciprocal value of those unions to society. As society matures past its "gays are icky" phase,

And there is no reason to prohibit siblings from marrying other than "incest is icky".

it sees that there is no appreciable difference between same-sex unions and opposite-sex unions, so it is natural to extend traditional marriage benefits to same-sex couples.

The ability to procreate is a pretty big difference. This difference exists whether or not a married couple actually procreates, because it prevents the potential for bastard children.
 
And there is no reason to prohibit siblings from marrying other than "incest is icky".

The ability to procreate is a pretty big difference.

Straight from from the American Medical Association
"Inbreeding is bad."

Straight from every single PHd on the planet
"Inbreeding is bad."


It becomes a National Health issue when you have siblings screwing and making babies so its good public policy to try and keep siblings in seperate bunks.
 
Straight from from the American Medical Association
"Inbreeding is bad."

Straight from every single PHd on the planet
"Inbreeding is bad."

It becomes a National Health issue when you have siblings screwing and making babies so its good public policy to try and keep siblings in seperate bunks.

This is only relevant if you think marriage is about procreation.

Of course if it is that would seem to say that same-sex marriage doesn't make sense :awe:
 
And there is no reason to prohibit siblings from marrying other than "incest is icky".

Marriage could be seen as society OKing attempts to breed (though not an expectation that the couple MUST attempt to breed, particularly when such an attempt would be futile), which for sufficiently close, fertile siblings of opposite sex could have a sufficiently high risk of negative consequences that it is in society's best interest to discourage it. You could make an argument that same sex siblings should be allowed to marry, or that infertile opposite sex siblings should. Of course, advances in gene manipulation could bring us not only infertility treatments, but even to a point where an ovum could be coaxed into a sperm-like gamete, or a sperm into an ovum-like gamete, where essentially same sex partners could produce offspring. But likewise, sufficient advances in genetic screening could mitigate any concerns with inbreeding. It's possible that in another 100 years our attitude towards consensual incest will seem as backwards and bigoted as the Conservatives' attitude towards GLBT issues is today. I'll willing to admit that my definition of marriage may be unfairly bigoted, and am willing to evolve it with an open mind, but I'm also pragmatic and view equality for GLBT folks as the main issue right now.


The ability to procreate is a pretty big difference. This difference exists whether or not a married couple actually procreates, because it prevents the potential for bastard children.

It doesn't seem like a big difference. 1) Infertile couples can still marry, so your premise is wrong to start with. 2) The comment on bastard children makes no sense, because gay/straight is not a binary preference. Same-sex couples have the same concerns regarding bastard children as opposite sex couples.
 
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