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Humans are doing everything too much

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Originally posted by: Jeff7
Originally posted by: Amused
I will never understand why people constantly cry about basic human nature.

Always wanting more is what got us through evolution. It's what helped us survive and breed successfully. The ones who were the most aggressive and ambitious got to live the longest and breed the most.

Instead of constantly trying to fight human nature, why not go with it and realize that humans will always be ambitious and selfish. We are not worker bees or army ants nor will we ever be. Altruism is slavery.
Click to expand...
That worked when scarcity was an exceedingly common thing, and when it also meant the difference between life and death.
Now in the developed world, we have abundance in all of the basic necessities. Wanting more and more generally involves excess of things other than the necessities, things we really don't need. That's where the nature analogy breaks down. Life forms can get greedy in nature, such as hoarding large amounts of food, but they really don't have any good way of storing that wealth, something can easily come along and take it from them, or else the food will simply decompose and thus be without any value.
We have the ability to hoard wealth, and keep it for a lifetime.

We also have the ability to go beyond what nature gave us. Nature is entirely uncaring about what goes on, what happens happens. This can lead to a pretty cruel and brutish existence. We have the ability to go beyond that.

Altruism is slavery? You owe your existence to your "altruistic slave" parents, or whoever it was who raised you; individuals willing to put someone else's needs before their own. Altruistic people are the ones who are more likely to be remembered with terms like "hero" or "great."
People who selfishly hoard wealth will be remembered somewhat differently: "He spent his whole life becoming a millionaire, and never once used any of it helped another human being in his life. What a dick."
Great way to be remembered.
Click to expand...

What worked in times of scarcity is what makes us today. We have not bred out the very nature that brought us to where we are today. We are very little changed in 10,000 years. We may be able to form ideas that are contrary to our nature, but those ideas never work in practice, which is why communism was and always will be an utter failure. You cannot expect the majority of humans to live not for themselves, but for others. It's an impossibility. Again, we are not hive animals.

My parents were not altruistic, they were selfish. It is selfish and in our nature to breed as many children as possible. My mother was not being altruistic when she raised me, she was following her selfish nature which was to pass on her genes at all cost.

Altruism by it's very nature is slavery. It is living and working for someone other than yourself.

And if you look through history, most of the "greats" or "heroes" were extremely selfish, ambitious men who seeked fame, fortune, notoriety and conquest. I'm sure you'll pick out the exceptions, and then I'll just flood the thread with the majority.

And as an old soldier, I will tell you that even soldiers do not fight and die for ideals, or country. They fight and die for the buddy beside him knowing that buddy would do the same for him. They pull together and fight for survival, not altruism.
 
We have to advance somehow...seems we are slowing down though....not getting as efficient as we should with our resources.
 
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Jeff7
Originally posted by: Amused
I will never understand why people constantly cry about basic human nature.

Always wanting more is what got us through evolution. It's what helped us survive and breed successfully. The ones who were the most aggressive and ambitious got to live the longest and breed the most.

Instead of constantly trying to fight human nature, why not go with it and realize that humans will always be ambitious and selfish. We are not worker bees or army ants nor will we ever be. Altruism is slavery.
Click to expand...
That worked when scarcity was an exceedingly common thing, and when it also meant the difference between life and death.
Now in the developed world, we have abundance in all of the basic necessities. Wanting more and more generally involves excess of things other than the necessities, things we really don't need. That's where the nature analogy breaks down. Life forms can get greedy in nature, such as hoarding large amounts of food, but they really don't have any good way of storing that wealth, something can easily come along and take it from them, or else the food will simply decompose and thus be without any value.
We have the ability to hoard wealth, and keep it for a lifetime.

We also have the ability to go beyond what nature gave us. Nature is entirely uncaring about what goes on, what happens happens. This can lead to a pretty cruel and brutish existence. We have the ability to go beyond that.

Altruism is slavery? You owe your existence to your "altruistic slave" parents, or whoever it was who raised you; individuals willing to put someone else's needs before their own. Altruistic people are the ones who are more likely to be remembered with terms like "hero" or "great."
People who selfishly hoard wealth will be remembered somewhat differently: "He spent his whole life becoming a millionaire, and never once used any of it helped another human being in his life. What a dick."
Great way to be remembered.
Click to expand...

What worked in times of scarcity is what makes us today. We have not bred out the very nature that brought us to where we are today. We are very little changed in 10,000 years. We may be able to form ideas that are contrary to our nature, but those ideas never work in practice, which is why communism was and always will be an utter failure. You cannot expect the majority of humans to live not for themselves, but for others. It's an impossibility. Again, we are not hive animals.

My parents were not altruistic, they were selfish. It is selfish and in our nature to breed as many children as possible. My mother was not being altruistic when she raised me, she was following her selfish nature which was to pass on her genes at all cost.

Altruism by it's very nature is slavery. It is living and working for someone other than yourself.

And if you look through history, most of the "greats" or "heroes" were extremely selfish, ambitious men who seeked fame, fortune, notoriety and conquest. I'm sure you'll pick out the exceptions, and then I'll just flood the thread with the majority.

And as an old soldier, I will tell you that even soldiers do not fight and die for ideals, or country. They fight and die for the buddy beside him knowing that buddy would do the same for him. They pull together and fight for survival, not altruism.
Click to expand...

Man, you are cynical as hell.
 
Originally posted by: Amused
What worked in times of scarcity is what makes us today. We have not bred out the very nature that brought us to where we are today. We are very little changed in 10,000 years. We may be able to form ideas that are contrary to our nature, but those ideas never work in practice, which is why communism was and always will be an utter failure. You cannot expect the majority of humans to live not for themselves, but for others. It's an impossibility. Again, we are not hive animals.

My parents were not altruistic, they were selfish. It is selfish and in our nature to breed as many children as possible. My mother was not being altruistic when she raised me, she was following her selfish nature which was to pass on her genes at all cost.

Altruism by it's very nature is slavery. It is living and working for someone other than yourself.

And if you look through history, most of the "greats" or "heroes" were extremely selfish, ambitious men who seeked fame, fortune, notoriety and conquest. I'm sure you'll pick out the exceptions, and then I'll just flood the thread with the majority.

And as an old soldier, I will tell you that even soldiers do not fight and die for ideals, or country. They fight and die for the buddy beside him knowing that buddy would do the same for him. They pull together and fight for survival, not altruism.
Click to expand...
Kind of a sad and pathetic legacy for us to leave.
Sad too that so many people like to cling to the "security" of our animal nature, even going to the point of romanticizing our past, and giving up hope for anything better.

I can only hope that something will eventually change human nature. Reduce aggressive tendencies and lust for power, lower the sex drive* (OMG TEH NOES!!!) so that we don't piss away so damn much of our lives on the primitive search for a mate, and courtship rituals and such, enhance our overall mental capacity, place less focus on the individual, and in time, find a way to cure the ancient malady of death.

How grand it would be to one day say to nature, "Thanks for getting us this far. We'll take it from here." Reach a point where we can take full control over our species own path through time. The future will (hopefully) bring many changes that few today even care to imagine.


And in the other thread, you said you didn't like Star Trek because of communist ideals in it, or something.
It's odd to me why people are so resistant to a society where obsession with wealth is no longer the main driving force, but where human progress is the objective. Yes, overall progress = bad. Primitive, selfish animal tendencies = good.



* A telling bit that our sex drive is too damn strong: rape and sexual assault rates. "I want to have sex with you, woman, therefore it is going to happen. Your thoughts on the matter are irrelevant." WTF????? Pathetic that anyone does that; even more pathetic that there are such high numbers of women who are sexually assaulted in some way in their lives. Simply pathetic.



Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Man, you are cynical as hell.
Click to expand...
Yeah, and I thought I was bad.

 
Originally posted by: Jeff7
Originally posted by: Amused
What worked in times of scarcity is what makes us today. We have not bred out the very nature that brought us to where we are today. We are very little changed in 10,000 years. We may be able to form ideas that are contrary to our nature, but those ideas never work in practice, which is why communism was and always will be an utter failure. You cannot expect the majority of humans to live not for themselves, but for others. It's an impossibility. Again, we are not hive animals.

My parents were not altruistic, they were selfish. It is selfish and in our nature to breed as many children as possible. My mother was not being altruistic when she raised me, she was following her selfish nature which was to pass on her genes at all cost.

Altruism by it's very nature is slavery. It is living and working for someone other than yourself.

And if you look through history, most of the "greats" or "heroes" were extremely selfish, ambitious men who seeked fame, fortune, notoriety and conquest. I'm sure you'll pick out the exceptions, and then I'll just flood the thread with the majority.

And as an old soldier, I will tell you that even soldiers do not fight and die for ideals, or country. They fight and die for the buddy beside him knowing that buddy would do the same for him. They pull together and fight for survival, not altruism.
Click to expand...
Kind of a sad and pathetic legacy for us to leave.
Sad too that so many people like to cling to the "security" of our animal nature, even going to the point of romanticizing our past, and giving up hope for anything better.

I can only hope that something will eventually change human nature. Reduce aggressive tendencies and lust for power, lower the sex drive* (OMG TEH NOES!!!) so that we don't piss away so damn much of our lives on the primitive search for a mate, and courtship rituals and such, enhance our overall mental capacity, place less focus on the individual, and in time, find a way to cure the ancient malady of death.

How grand it would be to one day say to nature, "Thanks for getting us this far. We'll take it from here." Reach a point where we can take full control over our species own path through time. The future will (hopefully) bring many changes that few today even care to imagine.


And in the other thread, you said you didn't like Star Trek because of communist ideals in it, or something.
It's odd to me why people are so resistant to a society where obsession with wealth is no longer the main driving force, but where human progress is the objective. Yes, overall progress = bad. Primitive, selfish animal tendencies = good.



* A telling bit that our sex drive is too damn strong: rape and sexual assault rates. "I want to have sex with you, woman, therefore it is going to happen. Your thoughts on the matter are irrelevant." WTF????? Pathetic that anyone does that; even more pathetic that there are such high numbers of women who are sexually assaulted in some way in their lives. Simply pathetic.



Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Man, you are cynical as hell.
Click to expand...
Yeah, and I thought I was bad.
Click to expand...

Well, you can be an idealist and be miserable, or be a realist, learn to live in the world as it is and be happy.

Yes, humans are inherently resistant to communism because we are inherently individual. We may pull together on certain issues to increase survivability, but in the end, we are individuals and have individual minds. There is no individualism in communism. Communism is all people working for a single goal. This is completely contrary to basic human nature and impossible to achieve.

I have ideals too. My ideals closely follow those of the men who worked together to form this country. They are based on individual rights and freedoms.

The most successful society is one that leaves individuals alone unless they harm or violate the rights of another individual. That is a society based not on idealism, but on the reality of human nature.
 
Originally posted by: ViviTheMage
We have to advance somehow...seems we are slowing down though....not getting as efficient as we should with our resources.
Click to expand...

..an ever expanding population will negate all conservation efforts. anything we are doing to subsidise population growth must end. The era of the unsettled 1800's era continent is long overwith.
 
Originally posted by: Bulk Beef
Fat people cause global warming and $4/gal gas.
Click to expand...

Isn't bulk beef itself then, causing global warming by default? Since it is consumed in large quantities by said fat people. Alternators definitely cause global warming.
 
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Jeff7
Originally posted by: Amused
I will never understand why people constantly cry about basic human nature.

Always wanting more is what got us through evolution. It's what helped us survive and breed successfully. The ones who were the most aggressive and ambitious got to live the longest and breed the most.

Instead of constantly trying to fight human nature, why not go with it and realize that humans will always be ambitious and selfish. We are not worker bees or army ants nor will we ever be. Altruism is slavery.
Click to expand...
That worked when scarcity was an exceedingly common thing, and when it also meant the difference between life and death.
Now in the developed world, we have abundance in all of the basic necessities. Wanting more and more generally involves excess of things other than the necessities, things we really don't need. That's where the nature analogy breaks down. Life forms can get greedy in nature, such as hoarding large amounts of food, but they really don't have any good way of storing that wealth, something can easily come along and take it from them, or else the food will simply decompose and thus be without any value.
We have the ability to hoard wealth, and keep it for a lifetime.

We also have the ability to go beyond what nature gave us. Nature is entirely uncaring about what goes on, what happens happens. This can lead to a pretty cruel and brutish existence. We have the ability to go beyond that.

Altruism is slavery? You owe your existence to your "altruistic slave" parents, or whoever it was who raised you; individuals willing to put someone else's needs before their own. Altruistic people are the ones who are more likely to be remembered with terms like "hero" or "great."
People who selfishly hoard wealth will be remembered somewhat differently: "He spent his whole life becoming a millionaire, and never once used any of it helped another human being in his life. What a dick."
Great way to be remembered.
Click to expand...

What worked in times of scarcity is what makes us today. We have not bred out the very nature that brought us to where we are today. We are very little changed in 10,000 years. We may be able to form ideas that are contrary to our nature, but those ideas never work in practice, which is why communism was and always will be an utter failure. You cannot expect the majority of humans to live not for themselves, but for others. It's an impossibility. Again, we are not hive animals.

My parents were not altruistic, they were selfish. It is selfish and in our nature to breed as many children as possible. My mother was not being altruistic when she raised me, she was following her selfish nature which was to pass on her genes at all cost.

Altruism by it's very nature is slavery. It is living and working for someone other than yourself.

And if you look through history, most of the "greats" or "heroes" were extremely selfish, ambitious men who seeked fame, fortune, notoriety and conquest. I'm sure you'll pick out the exceptions, and then I'll just flood the thread with the majority.

And as an old soldier, I will tell you that even soldiers do not fight and die for ideals, or country. They fight and die for the buddy beside him knowing that buddy would do the same for him. They pull together and fight for survival, not altruism.
Click to expand...

Man, you are cynical as hell.
Click to expand...
You're actually two of a kind. 😉
 
Originally posted by: Amused
Well, you can be an idealist and be miserable, or be a realist, learn to live in the world as it is and be happy.

Yes, humans are inherently resistant to communism because we are inherently individual. We may pull together on certain issues to increase survivability, but in the end, we are individuals and have individual minds. There is no individualism in communism. Communism is all people working for a single goal. This is completely contrary to basic human nature and impossible to achieve.

I have ideals too. My ideals closely follow those of the men who worked together to form this country. They are based on individual rights and freedoms.

The most successful society is one that leaves individuals alone unless they harm or violate the rights of another individual. That is a society based not on idealism, but on the reality of human nature.
Click to expand...
There can be balance between them: Live in the world as it is, but try to craft life in such a way that it might improve for the future. Simply accepting the world as it is will lead to stagnation.

Human nature: I don't think that "leaving individuals along unless they harm others" is human nature. So much of the eras in our history are defined by conquest and wars. We're all to eager to kill each other over trivial matters, which usually amounts to, "Your dirt is better than our dirt. We want it," or else, "We want more dirt."

Treating each other with respect and dignity is what seems to be contrary to our nature.

 
Originally posted by: Jeff7
Originally posted by: Amused
Well, you can be an idealist and be miserable, or be a realist, learn to live in the world as it is and be happy.

Yes, humans are inherently resistant to communism because we are inherently individual. We may pull together on certain issues to increase survivability, but in the end, we are individuals and have individual minds. There is no individualism in communism. Communism is all people working for a single goal. This is completely contrary to basic human nature and impossible to achieve.

I have ideals too. My ideals closely follow those of the men who worked together to form this country. They are based on individual rights and freedoms.

The most successful society is one that leaves individuals alone unless they harm or violate the rights of another individual. That is a society based not on idealism, but on the reality of human nature.
Click to expand...
There can be balance between them: Live in the world as it is, but try to craft life in such a way that it might improve for the future. Simply accepting the world as it is will lead to stagnation.

Human nature: I don't think that "leaving individuals along unless they harm others" is human nature. So much of the eras in our history are defined by conquest and wars. We're all to eager to kill each other over trivial matters, which usually amounts to, "Your dirt is better than our dirt. We want it," or else, "We want more dirt."

Treating each other with respect and dignity is what seems to be contrary to our nature.
Click to expand...

Actually, treating others with respect and dignity is a very selfish way to help with our own comfort and survival. Some people are just unable to see the logic behind it.

Unless you want to start a eugenics program, basic human nature isn't going to change any time soon.

And yes, individuals DO want to be left alone. The problem, (and you point it out so well, actually) is they don't seem to want to leave others alone. So that's why you build a constitutional republic that is centered on preserving the rights and freedoms of individuals and a legal system that punishes those who infringe upon the rights and freedoms of others.
 
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