Human Nature

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sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,823
6,368
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What do you mean by "science" though? How are you defining that? Where is this abstract pure "Science" that is unrelated to the actual people who practice and control it, and the institutions, embedded in a given social structure, through which it operates? Actual real-world science has a long history of getting things wrong, and not randomly, generally for reasons related to the distribution of power in a society.

Science is the active investigation into phenomena. Think of it this way: People who focus on a subject are more informed on that subject than those who are not. They learn the History of thoughts on the subject and their continued investigations will often produce more knowledge on the subject. When there are thousands of like minded people from all parts of the World with all kinds of cultural backgrounds who have arrived at a Consensus, that consensus is going to almost always be more correct than the musings of some rando. If some rando happens to correctly opposes the consensus, they first have to demonstrate the efficacy of their idea. Once doing so, it will become part of the Consensus.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
"Therefore what ye would that men do unto you, do ye even so unto them, for this is the Law and the Prophets."

Religion and tribalism are 2 different things, and often contradictory, though many unfortunately see them as the same.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
15,142
10,042
136
Science is the active investigation into phenomena. Think of it this way: People who focus on a subject are more informed on that subject than those who are not. They learn the History of thoughts on the subject and their continued investigations will often produce more knowledge on the subject. When there are thousands of like minded people from all parts of the World with all kinds of cultural backgrounds who have arrived at a Consensus, that consensus is going to almost always be more correct than the musings of some rando. If some rando happens to correctly opposes the consensus, they first have to demonstrate the efficacy of their idea. Once doing so, it will become part of the Consensus.

Again, that seems a simplistic account of what happens. There are plenty of examples of a 'concensus' in science that turned out to be wrong, due to a widespread bias. The diversity of "cultural backgrounds" in many fields of science is not all that large.
 

Mai72

Lifer
Sep 12, 2012
11,562
1,742
126
I hear this argument from christians all the time, it boils down to science has been wrong before, therefore we can't trust science, and science will never be able to fully explain everything, therefore we shouldn't even try. The only solution is to turn to the bible which is the sole source of the ultimate truth.

Religion is poison and primary reason why United States is currently in decline.

Yea, but the bible was written by man. Now, the Quran IS the final word of God. That is what my Muslim friend told me.

Muslims believe that the Quran is a science book as well. Didn't you guys know that the prophet Muhammad split the moon with his finger, and he rode a winged horse into heaven? :D
 
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Mai72

Lifer
Sep 12, 2012
11,562
1,742
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The problem is science can't test for the supernatural.

We have no way to test if there is an afterlife, or if angels are real. Its the same for miracles. Did a man named Jesus walk on water, and heal the sick? BTW, the Buddha did these same exact deeds 500 years before Jesus which makes me believe that Christains stole what they heard from Buddhist and Hindus. But anyway, we can throw iron bars and ivory soap into warm water. The bars of soap are going to float. The iron bars are going to sink. A man walking on a frozen lake is not a big deal. A man walking on a lake in the middle of the summer is a big deal. The issue is we don't have any proof that any of this stuff took place. Lets also not forget how superstitious people were in the past. Especially ancient times. Before science, there was religion and we used religion to explain natural events. Also, every so called miracle has been easily explained with science. Why aren't we noticing miracles today? Especially with all of our technology. Instead, we get toast that has an image of Jesus. If that is the best that God can do I'm not impressed.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
41,064
10,309
136
I will trust Physics and Math.

You weigh how much? You move as (x) speed, you will impact with (z) force.
You do not mix copper and aluminum without anti corrosion.
Cooler CPU will generally run faster, to a point, based on the flaws and variances of the manufacturing.

The feather and bowling ball in a vacuum is a good experiment. (every mass has gravity, depending on it's amount of mass)
It's why I was a physics major. When that stopped being interesting/fun for me I changed my major to math, in which I eventually earned a degree. Both are respectable disciplines. If you don't think so it's because you haven't studied them. They command your respect or you fail. If you think they are wrong, prove it, there might be a career for you by virtue of your refutation. They require rigorous thinking. They are more powerful than doubters.

Human Nature. Capitalized, no less, as if that gives the term credence. My favorite math teacher at the university (who went on to become head of the department) explained to the class one day how great math was because you couldn't doubt what it did, what it was about. You are either right or wrong, and you can prove you're right. The humanities? You'll never prove anything. You can write the greatest paper, a book that sells millions of copies, but there's no rigor, no assurance of value like you have in mathematics.

People who reject science? I want nothing to do with them. I do not suffer fools gladly.
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
41,064
10,309
136
If some rando happens to correctly opposes the consensus, they first have to demonstrate the efficacy of their idea. Once doing so, it will become part of the Consensus.
"What is now proved was once only imagined." - William Blake
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
15,142
10,042
136
It's why I was a physics major. When that stopped being interesting/fun for me I changed my major to math, in which I eventually earned a degree. Both are respectable disciplines. If you don't think so it's because you haven't studied them. They command your respect or you fail. If you think they are wrong, prove it, there might be a career for you by virtue of your refutation. They require rigorous thinking. They are more powerful than doubters.

Human Nature. Capitalized, no less, as if that gives the term credence. My favorite math teacher at the university (who went on to become head of the department) explained to the class one day how great math was because you couldn't doubt what it did, what it was about. You are either right or wrong, and you can prove you're right. The humanities? You'll never prove anything. You can write the greatest paper, a book that sells millions of copies, but there's no rigor, no assurance of value like you have in mathematics.

People who reject science? I want nothing to do with them. I do not suffer fools gladly.


I did physics as well. That and maths were always absolutely my 'thing' (precisely because it felt like a way to escape into certainty, away from the world of politics). Physics is awesome and maths is the closest thing we have to actual magic (manipulate these abstract symbols, that are a kind of language made more rigourous, and it ends up producing useful knowledge about the real world - that's worthy of Harry Potter).

However, I think "science" does a very poor job when it comes to the mind/brain material world/consciousness divide i.e. the relationship between deterministic physical reality and subjective internal experience.
 
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sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,823
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Again, that seems a simplistic account of what happens. There are plenty of examples of a 'concensus' in science that turned out to be wrong, due to a widespread bias. The diversity of "cultural backgrounds" in many fields of science is not all that large.

Everytime that happens, it was Scientists doing Science that changed things.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,864
6,783
126
"Therefore what ye would that men do unto you, do ye even so unto them, for this is the Law and the Prophets."

Religion and tribalism are 2 different things, and often contradictory, though many unfortunately see them as the same.
It seems to me that the reason for this is that the conditioning we grow up with is tribal in nature, everybody in a group professing to believe in the same things with the effort being not to become the "other" in the eyes of ones peers. This means that whatever insanity has crept into ones religion over the years, the inevitable degradation the creeps in owing the the rarity of the truly religiously enlightened to continually refresh it leads to the analogy of the Tower of Babel, with everybody fighting over the so called truth of their local tribal dialect. Religion, the real religious experience leads to a spiritual awakening, in my opinion, that is beyond language and words. It is a an integrative experience where the Lover of God and the Beloved of God are one and the same thing.

I think also that what we see in is what we feel but do not want to know we feel about ourselves but if we are good to others that will lessen the anger we direct at ourselves.
 
Mar 11, 2004
23,444
5,852
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Thats the longest "both sides" BS rant I've ever seen.

Really? You musta missed his 9billion previous times he's done that? He used to regularly post long dumbshit diatribes justifying why he would equate liberals asking for people to not get to demonize and trash people based on sex/gender/etc as just as bad (actually ultimately claiming it would lead to worse in fact) as convesrvatives screaming rape and death threats and calling for genocide.

Also with regards to most issues, like gun violence, he blames the internet. But doing anything about the toxicity on the internet he claims is what will make liberals into the worst monsters in all of human history, so he also demands nothing ever be done about it. And then he gets pissed off when people point out the inherent contradictory idiocy in his arguments on here.

Supposedly he "changed" at some point, and was even more of a raging lunatic right winger or something, because he's been a full of shit clown fucking dipshit the entire time I've been aware of his postings in this subforum. Somehow him every so often admitting that Republicans are being straight up evil seems to be enough to convince people he's not completely insane, but then they ignore how he immediately turns around and makes up shit claiming that, despite no evidence whatsoever, that liberals are being just as bad, and therefore he cannot support them because, again, somehow its going to lead to the end of all things.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
26,549
15,865
136
Very safe bet no person here studied vaccine effectiveness. Someone else did, wrote about it, and you believed them. Ergo, truth and reality are not absolute in your mind. It is simply who you choose to associate with, based on how you identify with them. Those who oppose the reality we know, they simply placed their faith into other people, people who tell them a different truth.

What?
No. No no no no. Critical thinking, verifiable facts. Not alternative facts, Bowling Green style. And it most def. starts with education.
Look at the path mankind have been on over the last 50.000 years, late stone-age when the architecture of our minds were done cooking.
From
- small tribal communities to
- large settlements to
- kingdoms to
- continent spanning unions
- alliances of unions
- ???

From where we've come I see no reason why we wouldnt be able to nudge it the last couple of centimeters and make a global contract.
In fact we have to.
The running pattern here is that you expand on the number of people you take responsibility for, and the only way this is gonna work, in the end, is if I take responsibility for all of you. All of you. And you me.

Like in my sig, what you are experiencing with the side effects of extreme capitalism, is an infantile disease, its the ... of mankind.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
41,064
10,309
136
I did physics as well. That and maths were always absolutely my 'thing' (precisely because it felt like a way to escape into certainty, away from the world of politics). Physics is awesome and maths is the closest thing we have to actual magic (manipulate these abstract symbols, that are a kind of language made more rigourous, and it ends up producing useful knowledge about the real world - that's worthy of Harry Potter). However, I think "science" does a very poor job when it comes to the mind/brain material world/consciousness divide i.e. the relationship between deterministic physical reality and subjective internal experience.
Yes. Certainly fascinating. My first approach to that was Freud. But I've looked elsewhere too. In so many places and ways.

Edit: I like quotations, those by intelligent conscientious witty educated people in particular. I am discriminating in these. Some widely quoted are FOS. I have a table of quotations that have impressed me.

Now, Einstein was clearly a mathematical and physics genius who did not limit himself, his imagination to the world of science. He's certainly one of the most quotable rigorous scientists ever. I'm sure that if asked his opinion on the subject does science do a "very poor job when it comes to the mind/brain material world/consciousness divide" and why, he would have had an interesting response.

I am also fascinated by William Blake, who was certainly not a scientist but was uncannily perceptive, inciteful concerning "human nature." In very few words he could right to the very heart of matters of human interest.
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
15,142
10,042
136
Everytime that happens, it was Scientists doing Science that changed things.

But it also often involves changes in the society around those scientists, that changed the nature of those scientists themselves, and their choice of questions to ask and topics to study. There are plenty of historical examples of that happening, particularly in medicine, particularly regarding a failure to include women or other less-socially-powerful groups in medical studies.

I mean, I'm not any sort of academic expert, I don't have the resources or education to make a case study myself. But it seems to me there are other possible more recent examples. Take attitudes to Chagas disease in the US, for example. For decades it's been assumed that Chagas is not endemic to the US, and that it was a disease exclusively of migrants from South America, where it is endemic.

But relatively recently they started screening blood donations, and were surprised to find Chagas parasites were present in samples from people who had never been outside the US. Now they've (belatedly) studied insect populations in parts of the US and found it is present in significant degree in bugs within US borders - meaning people are probably getting infected domestically from insect bites.

Nobody noticed previously that people were contracting the condition in the US itself, because nobody bothered to look for it. Yes it was 'science' that eventually discovered the disease is present and being spread within the US, but there was clearly a long delay in realising that (hard to say how long that delay has been - whether Chagas infected bugs have only recently colonised the south of the US or if they've been infecting people unnoticed for decades - given that the fatal effects of the condition can be easily confused with heart disease). I find it hard to believe that that faiure to look for it is unconnected to social factors, such as a tendency to prefer to see something as a disease of migrants and foreigners.

 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,864
6,783
126
I did physics as well. That and maths were always absolutely my 'thing' (precisely because it felt like a way to escape into certainty, away from the world of politics). Physics is awesome and maths is the closest thing we have to actual magic (manipulate these abstract symbols, that are a kind of language made more rigourous, and it ends up producing useful knowledge about the real world - that's worthy of Harry Potter).

However, I think "science" does a very poor job when it comes to the mind/brain material world/consciousness divide i.e. the relationship between deterministic physical reality and subjective internal experience.
The observer affects what is observed and Western science likes to imagine that the observer is objective and describes what is being observed, but the description puts what is being observed into time, what was observed in the past. Is there a state of consciousness where what is observed and the observer coexist in the same time. If so it would be in the now and there would be no science, no history, no time, only awareness itself. If such a conscious state were to be real, then it would seem to me that everything else is just words about being. The eye cannot see itself. A fragment of the whole is not the whole. Can thought and time end. I think it is a big yes in mystical tradition.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,823
6,368
126
But it also often involves changes in the society around those scientists, that changed the nature of those scientists themselves, and their choice of questions to ask and topics to study. There are plenty of historical examples of that happening, particularly in medicine, particularly regarding a failure to include women or other less-socially-powerful groups in medical studies.

I mean, I'm not any sort of academic expert, I don't have the resources or education to make a case study myself. But it seems to me there are other possible more recent examples. Take attitudes to Chagas disease in the US, for example. For decades it's been assumed that Chagas is not endemic to the US, and that it was a disease exclusively of migrants from South America, where it is endemic.

But relatively recently they started screening blood donations, and were surprised to find Chagas parasites were present in samples from people who had never been outside the US. Now they've (belatedly) studied insect populations in parts of the US and found it is present in significant degree in bugs within US borders - meaning people are probably getting infected domestically from insect bites.

Nobody noticed previously that people were contracting the condition in the US itself, because nobody bothered to look for it. Yes it was 'science' that eventually discovered the disease is present and being spread within the US, but there was clearly a long delay in realising that (hard to say how long that delay has been - whether Chagas infected bugs have only recently colonised the south of the US or if they've been infecting people unnoticed for decades - given that the fatal effects of the condition can be easily confused with heart disease). I find it hard to believe that that faiure to look for it is unconnected to social factors, such as a tendency to prefer to see something as a disease of migrants and foreigners.


It is not perfect, but it is the best we have. Name something better.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
15,142
10,042
136
It is not perfect, but it is the best we have. Name something better.

Well I'd agree "It's the best we have". I think I actually typed exactly that but then didn't post that comment. My experience, though, primarily with medical questions, is that people grossly-overestimate how perfect it is and how much we really know.
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
15,142
10,042
136
The one claim by climate-change-denialists I always felt I had to concede, was the argument that it was at least possible in theory for a 'false consensus' to exist in a scientific community, for structural, social and economic reasons. Just because there's a "consensus" about something within a given discipline doesn't mean it's necessarily correct. Look at all those 'expert' credit-rating agencies that rated all those junk mortgages triple-A prior to the financial crash. Look at the Supreme Court judges, all with credentials and alleged 'legal expert' status, arriving at the conclusions they are politically-motivated to reach.

As it happens, I feel I understand the topic of climate science well-enough that I am convinced the orthodox science is indeed entirely correct (and the 'skeptic' arguments have invariably turned out to be incompatible with the data if not based on a complete misunderstanding of the issue).

But in general I can't 100% blame those who don't have the confidence or expertise (or education, or access to data, or resources...) to judge for themselves, for being suspicious of what the 'consensus' of experts say about something.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
36,038
10,365
136
Let's have a conversation if possible. I'm thinking, having just read your post, that behind the words are feelings, feelings that motivate you to want to express what you have said. I don't know if you would want to accommodate me in that thought, actually also a kind of feeling hunch, and ask yourself and reply with what you see or not. Personally, what I hear looks to me like sadness on the surface but beneath it deep anger. Typically people call such an experience as frustration, dissatisfaction with what appear to be facts one can't change. What do you think?

Sadness was the 2020 election. I expected a resounding push back against Trumpism, but our country delivered a meek blow, one that completely undermined future prospects by giving us almost zero power in Congress and a Presidential figurehead to blame. The election results meant I had been far too optimistic in our people, that I still did not understand my fellow Americans. Worse, they called the election fake and attempted an insurrection. Even though they had gutted us, that wasn't good enough. I think I saw Democracy die that day, the time between that day and our future destination are merely the death throes.

But I digress, this is more about how we all behave... and why. To detail a modus operandi that will help me not underestimate the depths to which people will go. Which is to say... I do not believe we have a limit. That we are still cavemen, thoroughly, and the evil acts throughout history are just samples of what our future holds in store. For though the actual people committing them have changed, our behaviors are still derived from the same human condition. The same tribal, zealous, and fantastical make believe we used 4,000 years ago.

And though people think institutions will save them....

January 6th, I think, proves that there are no sacred cows. That perhaps those institutions already fell and can no longer serve their function. That any remaining pretense of their existence is just the calm before the storm. As the consequences of claiming "Democracy is dead" catches up to us. I did not see it at the time, but 2016 was far more dangerous than I feel has been expressed. As "fake news" will inevitability connect the dots straight through to fake elections, and no more consent of the people to be governed. To lawlessness, anarchy... to death and destruction. Our people are primed for this, they hunger for it like I never imagined. Mad crusaders fighting for their sky fairy.

I thought they would act with reason.... I was wrong. I can no longer assume that is what drives people. I think it is something else entirely, as explained in the OP.


Anger, perhaps, in knowing how even the "good guys" will behave. How tribal, how petty. How they will act blindly towards their own demise. Anyone who does not think exactly like them is an other to be discarded, if not assaulted. I feel treated that way, anger for the results of a recent topic. Does understanding why they do it help make it any less of a problem? Not really. What use is a good guy, if... at the end of the day... they have come for your head?

Hold a mirror to someone, and they'll claim you're Trump incarnate. A Nazi, and you know what we do to Nazis. Eastern Europe knows all too well.


In fact, Russia is a great modern day example of irrational actors. Of lies and make believe and propaganda. To the depths it will take humans when they believe in something, whether it is real or not. At heart, we are all crusaders and we are all good guys. It's just the bad guys that need killing. On and on it goes. I do not think, not for one second, that we are removed from the same behaviors. From the same tribal, zealous, and make believe that leads to these evil behaviors.

I think the AP has done a rather timely article to help me express the purpose of this topic.
An insight, I think, into how and why we are acting right now.

Choose your reality: Trust wanes, conspiracy theories rise
“Trust is absolutely essential to everything in society working well,” Reis said. “It’s one of those things that, like air, people don’t think about it until they realize they don’t have it, or they’ve lost it or damaged it. And then it can be too late.”
For experts who study misinformation and human cognition, the fraying of trust is tied to the rise of the internet and the way it can be exploited on contentious issues of social and economic change.
Distrust and suspicion offered obvious advantages to small bands of early humans trying to survive in a dangerous world, and those emotions continue to help people gauge personal risk today. But distrust is not always well suited to the modern world, which requires people to trust the strangers who inspect their food, police their streets and write their news. Democratic institutions, with their regulations and checks and balances, are one way of adding accountability to that trust.
When that trust breaks down, polarization and anxiety increases, creating opportunities for people pushing their own “ alternative facts.”
“People can’t fact check the world,” said Dr. Richard Friedman, a New York City psychiatrist and professor at Weill Cornell Medical College who has written about the psychology of trust and belief. “They’re awash in competing streams of information, both good and bad. They’re anxious about the future, and there are a lot of bad actors with the ability to weaponize that fear and anxiety.”
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,864
6,783
126
Sadness was the 2020 election. I expected a resounding push back against Trumpism, but our country delivered a meek blow, one that completely undermined future prospects by giving us almost zero power in Congress and a Presidential figurehead to blame. The election results meant I had been far too optimistic in our people, that I still did not understand my fellow Americans. Worse, they called the election fake and attempted an insurrection. Even though they had gutted us, that wasn't good enough. I think I saw Democracy die that day, the time between that day and our future destination are merely the death throes. ..................

Thank you for this reply. I think it is heart felt and well done. I am also concerned I do not have the skill or wisdom to properly respond to it. In this world infected by distrust I don't know if I can be trusted. Perhaps what I say will just be more disinformation. Having said so this is how I am going to wing it, as it comes to me as it comes:

My first reaction was to your expression of sadness at the 2020 election. I had a different reaction but it doesn't matter except to say that I already knew and have known for a long time everything you posted above and was not surprised by the results. You gave your reasons as to why and while I agree they are descriptive of humanity I don't attribute the reasons to human nature but to the nature of humans who are asleep.

When I was young I faced similar realizations that you have described in your post. I was a crusader for the good. Then I started to have doubts. What if the good I believe in is a false belief. In my case what if there is no God who is the standard of the good and makes it so in the absolute. Well, for reasons I am not sure about, but I like to blame my Mother who told me to be honest about things with her, in all the honesty I could muster I concluded there is no God, no good, no immortality in heaven for being a good crusader and so on. In short, I was more than a little sad. The light went out and my life turned to total despair. All the fucking scum of the earth in their egotistical denial of reality living their selfish immoral lives in ignorance of their depravity were much much better off than me. I was the fool who had lived in belief, and they in their paradise of denial. So behind all that sadness, may I suggest there is also more than a little anger. I got tricked and I got played.

I did not see that I was in a trap created by more belief I was unaware I even had, that in order to be happy good as to exist and life has to have meaning and it was in that state of misery that I ran into Zen. I found myself hearing from them, "Not a tile above or a place to put your feet, hahahahahahahaha...... What the fuck! Who were these assholes that say life is without meaning and full of joy? What is this shit about a strawberry at the end of the death of rainbows from heaven? That brought out some rage, but it also introduced a shock to my way of thinking. Never before had I been exposed to the notion that happiness does not require meaning.

Zen: Mountains are mountains before one sets foot on the journey, but then mountains are no longer mountains while on the path. At realization mountains are mountains again."

As a child I was happy. I remember laying on the grass watching the clouds roll by unaware of anything but that in that moment soon to become very rare, the beauty of simply being me. Many life experiences happened to tell me it was time to grow up and leave behind such childish daydreaming. You find out it is not a place you deserve to be. You are the cause of other people's suffering. I have to earn people's love and as you state in your post if indirectly is that it's the one thing nobody has to give and nobody can even if someone did.

Everything that we want is denied by the presence of that inner feeling, the catch 22 of our inner prison, the desire for what we do not feel we deserve and deeply distrust as ever having been real.

Well, when I looked again within me, having been exposed to foreign ideas provided by Zen, I asked myself why do I suffer, what is this experience of loss of meaning, what is this seeking for love, what is causing this pain.

And in the middle of those thoughts I was interrupted by the wind which had hit my house with some force. I went from a state of deep inward looking to only being in the room. That was it. A connection was made. Beneath all of our thinking state there is something alive that is present, a conscious state. All of the love, the goodness and joy that you have sought out there to create you have done so only for one reason. You have been asleep to the fact that all of that which you have sought is there, hidden with, waiting for you to feel it again.

I think the only rational response to the world as you see it is compassion. I don't think I could have said that were I not first to have seen it with despair.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
36,038
10,365
136
I think the only rational response to the world as you see it is compassion. I don't think I could have said that were I not first to have seen it with despair.

The despair I feel has to do with predicting where people take it from here. Of having a theory to explain their behavior. To realize we are only human, and that means more negative behaviors than people are willing to admit. That we are the same cavemen, only held together by institutions that many of us are actively engaged in burning down. In the face of 2016, and 2020. In the face of Russia's suicidal mission FOR genocide, in this, the year 2022. If someone expects the worst out of humanity, humanity surely delivers and does not disappoint.

Don't get me wrong, it's not all darkness. Humans have a capacity to connect and seek reason from madness. To love instead of hate. But as I look around, hate has clearly taken hold of people I witness. In how they treat others. Our institutions are proving weak and ineffective at their own preservation and, in turn, at our preservation. I fear for our future, and I recognize the human condition for the challenges we face. For our people's inability to take constructive action.

Tribal and zealous fantasy stands in our way. That for each person, truth is whatever they fancy and is not derived from fact, logic, or reason...

Religion always has, and always will remain... the modus operandi of our species. We thought of ourselves as better than that, and such delusion has left us vulnerable to backsliding in civilization. Of not recognizing the dangers of human behavior, their root causes and how to avoid them. How to guide us towards a brighter future in spite of ourselves. I feel there has been little to no strategy in this regard. Our blind spot is our ego, our hubris.

People and reality have only ever been loosely paired together. By either a passing advantage, an institutional structure to lead them there... or by sheer accident. I posit it is not born of some inherent grounding. When I said we have a capacity to connect and seek reason, I meant our moral compass.... When not lead astray, our hero complex can guide us there. To form institutions that try to do good. But that is all faith, and it can later be misplaced. If not by the original founder, then by successors who lost their way and lack the indoctrination necessary to carry forward.

This lesson, perhaps, can seem a little scary. Education is a poor substitute for indoctrination, and people will cast aside the scientific method for fairy tales. To maintain our institutions... people must believe in them. They must have and place faith into them. That AP article describes the dissolution of that faith, otherwise known as trust. It also described it as an issue shared across western civilization. It is not just our problem. It is a human problem. Though not all civilizations are equally vulnerable to it, or at least... their vulnerability will take different routes towards the same self destructive destination. I think a Democracy will collapse differently than totalitarianism. The two systems have different strengths and weaknesses.

This is not a push for totalitarianism, but rather... a recognition that some aspect of it may be necessary to preserve a Democracy. That we cannot readily allow our people to abandon science. If human nature will readily abandon facts, logic and reason... do we not need a pre-planned institution or organization that can push back and help maintain order? If a foreign country unleashes a propaganda war over social media, shouldn't we have prepared defenses to that assault?

I might call it... a need to indoctrinate our people towards a common purpose. Where education and the scientific method can still thrive. Where conspiracies are not promoted as gospel. Where people like Alex Jones would never be regarded as relevant over a college professor. Our divisions are going to kill us and it was a horrible mistake to leave ourselves vulnerable to human nature. So the discussion is... I think I know why we're in deep !@#$. While I am not certain what the answers are... I know they should at least be explored. While we can still communicate to each other sans violence. Who knows how long that will last.