human language vs. machine languages - are they comparable?

[Sir Fredrick]

My school requires that I learn a language in order to graduate. I know a handful of machine languages fairly well, but english is the only human language I speak. It seems to me that high level machine langages such as C++ or LISP should be counted towards such a language requirement. What do you guys think?

I'm considering writing an argumentative paper on this topic too, but it seems like a hard one to find resources on.

 

[chrisjor]

01000111!!!!!!! 00110001111 1000111? .......10001111001 01001.....know what I mean?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Sorry, but human languages are largely metaphorical in nature. Machine language is not.They are therefore not equivalent

 

[tweakmm]

I think both of you missed his point. He wasn't talking machine language as in binary(0001001) he was talking machine language as in programing language.

 

[imgod2u]

Human language is largely different. There are endless connotations, rules and often jargon and styles which aren't official yet used. It's an art you could even say.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

<< I think both of you missed his point. He wasn't talking machine language as in binary(0001001) he was talking machine language as in programing language. >>




Metaphorical programming languages? I thought he wanted to substitute a programming language for a foreign language requirement and wanted to demonstrate equivalency. Of course I am tired and tired = stupid

 

[chrisjor]

I think I have his point, I agree with Hayabusarider. You ever tried to slang a programming language? What happens? There is more to communication than just the use of language. In Humans it is communication more than language.

 

[MacBaine]

And then hit him in the face with a tire iron!

 

[CyberZenn]

Programing languges are generally more geared towards giving commands rather than conveying information the way spoken languages usually are. While i can think of one or two exceptions (relational database specific languages - Prolog for instance) you are generally going to have a difficult time simply conveying information through the actual code of a language.

 

[Sir Fredrick]

<< 01000111!!!!!!! 00110001111 1000111? .......10001111001 01001.....know what I mean? >>



01001001 00100000 01100011 01101111 01110101 01101100 01100100 01101110 00100111 01110100

 

[Sir Fredrick]

<< Human language is largely different. There are endless connotations, rules and often jargon and styles which aren't official yet used. It's an art you could even say. >>



How is this different from say, different implementations of Java, or even C++? Code written in one compiler often will not work in another.

There is an infinite number of ways to convey to the computer what you want it to do, but only a few which are truly efficient.

High level machine languages are often metaphorical.

 

[chrisjor]

CyberZenn,

Nicely stated.........please do not poop on my sig!

 

[Sir Fredrick]

<< I think I have his point, I agree with Hayabusarider. You ever tried to slang a programming language? What happens? There is more to communication than just the use of language. In Humans it is communication more than language. >>



If you try to use slang in a programming language, the computer will probably not understand you, unless of course you define what you mean by that slang (i.e. overloaded operators, defining a function with a different name, using typedef in C...).

CyberZen:



<< Programing languges are generally more geared towards giving commands rather than conveying information the way spoken languages usually are. While i can think of one or two exceptions (relational database specific languages - Prolog for instance) you are generally going to have a difficult time simply conveying information through the actual code of a language. >>



Actually, programming languages are used to convey information to the computer. Usually that information is "I want you to do this," but you can certainly use them to convey that the church has been painted red by setting a variable or adding that information to a database.
Now, whether or not the computer truly understands what it means is a different story, one which I don't think is relevant to this discussion, but it is actually possible to have a computer build a symantec network based on information that it is given - if the system is sophisticated enough, the computer could use that information later, convey it back to you in different words, etc.. But for now let's assume that the computer doesn't really understand what it means when you tell it that the church is being painted red.
If you have a discussion with a mentally handicapped person who does not understand many things that you tell them, does that mean that you're not speaking a language with them?

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

You could probably write a pretty good paper on this. Programming languages really do have the properties of any other language. It is the means to convey ideas to an audience. It has its own rules, structer, and syntax to follow so that audience can understand it. The one thing it doesn't share though is that it's not culturally based, and that can be pretty relevent.

 

[chrisjor]

Sir Fredrick,

your point is well taken. I guess that this gets into intelligence (A.I.) and comprehension. The machine will do EXACTLY what it is interpreting as a command.

 

[chrisjor]

If nothing else you will have tons o' crap for your paper!!!!

 

"I think both of you missed his point. He wasn't talking machine language as in binary(0001001) he was talking machine language as in programing language."

No, I'm afraid you miss the point in his argument.

In a nutshell, if programming were comparable to human language, then I doubt we would have philosophy classes discussing subjects like this. Experiments were in fact made and there was not much that could be done replicating the human communication system. The computer could do so little in the psychology of speech and communications.

"Programing languges are generally more geared towards giving commands rather than conveying information the way spoken languages usually are. While i can think of one or two exceptions (relational database specific languages - Prolog for instance) you are generally going to have a difficult time simply conveying information through the actual code of a language."

I actually tinkered with Prolog (Programming in Logic) and found it quite interesting, but it was far from what the original poster's hypothesis suggests or dares to accomplish.

Good thought if you can come up with something, Sir Fedrick. I think Her Majesty would give you a much higher and noble title than "Sir".

 

[Sir Fredrick]

<< In a nutshell, if programming were comparable to human language, then I doubt we would have philosophy classes discussing subject like this. >>



Ah, but if it were not comparable, I doube we would have philosophy classes discussing subjects like this.



<< Experiments were in fact made and there was not much that could be done replicating the human communication system. The computer could do so little in the psychology of speech and communications. >>



linky? The human-human communication system is obviously going to be different from the human-computer communication system. They serve different purposes, but are very similar in some ways.

American Sign Language is quite different from English on the surface - from the obvious different method of communication down to syntax, symantecs, word order, etc. Some things which are easy to communicate very quickly in ASL take longer and are more difficult to explain in English, and vice versa. But it's still a language.
As I said before, I think that communication and understanding are seperate beasts - though a computer understands perfectly well what a line of code means, as long as it follows the rules of the language.

Ok guys, time for bed. I'll continue this discussion later. If anyone knows of any resources which agree or disagree with my position, I'd love to see them (links are great!)

 

"Ah, but if it were not comparable, I doube we would have philosophy classes discussing subjects like this. "

Haha! You're a smart kid with a witty come-back!

Anyway, try out the book: Mind over Machine by Hubert Dreyfus and Stuart E. Dreyfus. Don't come whining to me if you get bored 'cuz you asked for it, Sir Fredrick!

 

[yellowplastic]

You should definitely write a paper on this topic.

There have been court cases that reflect upon whether censoring computer code would violate First Amendment protection, and there was no Federal decision made either way.

Certainly, computer code is just as communicative as any other scientific or technical language, such as the term-heavy English used in medical journals or philosophy journals.

You might also want to look at the Obfuscated C contest and Perl poetry as examples of programming languages used in an artful manner.

 

[Spike]

tell me if you can get this through, I would love to wave my language requirement with java and python knowledge

 

[Sir Fredrick]

Thanks for the suggestions guys, I think I'm gonna do the paper. This is really getting into thesis paper territory, but if I can write a summary for my writing class, that'll be good and then maybe I'll expand it and turn it into a thesis paper if I find enough good material on the subject.

P.S. I'm not actually trying to get out of the language requirement...I finally gave up on learning a spoken language and am studying ASL (American Sign Language)...I don't understand it as well as C++, but I'm not doing too bad either.

If I do write this paper, I'll be sure to post it here (though it may be a while)

 

You better check out that book I recommended, Sir Fredrick! It dives into this subject matter.

 

[Sir Fredrick]

<< You better check out that book I recommended, Sir Fredrick! It dives into this subject matter. >>



I will. For sure.

 

[MustPost]

The point the school has isn't whether a computer language is comparable to a human language, which i don't believe it is.
The point of the school requirment for language is for somesort of human-human interaction to be enhanced. The fact that computer languages are used between humans and computers and not humans and humans is the very reason they should not be able to satisfy the schools language requirment.