Huckabee wants to drop the IRS

[BoberFett]

Jhhhn

How does progressive taxation keep people paying the same proportion? It keeps people at the bottom paying nothing and people at the top paying more. Clearly taxation brings out the raving lunatics on the left as well.

That said, a national sales tax is a horrible idea as it is totally regressive. The best system would be a true flat income tax. Every dollar earned from any source would be taxed at the same rate. Income, interest, capital gains, all at the same rate.

 

[Nitemare]

the Fair Tax supported by RP is a better idea, but any change to the current tax system has to be an improvement

 

[Ldir]

Originally posted by: Nebor
It's been proven that as you tax the wealthy more, they take themselves and their money to other countries. We're in a bad enough brain\money drain as it is right now. The sooner you stop trying to get your government thug with a gun to play Robin Hood, the better.

Show us this proof. It is a common talking point but the only examples I have seen are for tax rates above 80%. It is not a problem for realistic tax rates.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Nebor

It's been proven that as you tax the wealthy more, they take themselves and their money to other countries. We're in a bad enough brain\money drain as it is right now. The sooner you stop trying to get your government thug with a gun to play Robin Hood, the better.

Load of crap.

In the 1950's, the top tax rate was 90%. In the 60's it was 70%. The wealthy did not flee.

What HAS happened is that the wealthy have been shifting the wealth in America hugely in their own direction and away from other Americans since Reagan and that needs to stop.

Your whiny lying rhetoric about Robin Hood is a disgrace combining ignorance and the evil impact of keeping the average American poorer than they should be.

 

[Craig234]

Piasabird makes some false statements:

Originally posted by: piasabird
The people at the top are paying through the nose already.

No, they're not. They're paying the lowest rates in several decades, and income has shifted*hugely* to the super wealthy in the last 30 years.

Also, we can't be blackmailed on tax policies by their threat to leave the nations, and the US has the lowest tax rates of the western industrialized nations.

If anything, *we're* making it hard for the other nations to tax *their* wealthy fairly.

The problem is that in the past under Clinton when the ultra rich were given things like a luxury tax is that they just start buying things overseas.

Clinton slightly raised taxes on the top 2%. The right-wing, following its false ideology, predicted doom - plummeting GDP, skyrocketing debt. Actually, he balanced the budget.

And he gets the sales tax issue right:

Retail sales taxes will only hurt the middle class stuck in the USA and the poor.

 

[Jhhnn]

From Boberfett-

How does progressive taxation keep people paying the same proportion?

You have to look at total taxation to understand that, which is my frame of reference.

Sales tax, use tax, excise tax, property tax, and the myriad of hidden taxes and fees we all pay to the govt have negligible effect on the enormous incomes of the truly wealthy, yet are a significant portion of income for most of us...

Rightwing anti-tax ravers always want to examine federal income tax as if it were the only tax- it's not, not by a longshot...

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: bamacre
We need to cut spending, drastically. Our government spends WAY too much money. Much of it wastefully.

Well cut spending on what? Whether you like it or not Americans actually like big government. Sure they might complain about it and say that we should reduce its size... but actions speak far louder then words. People LIKE social security, they LIKE medicare, they LIKE a huge bloated military, large highway systems, etc... etc.

So while I'm sure you don't... and there are certainly plenty of other Americans who want to make the government smaller, I believe you are badly outnumbered. This might not be the country for you.

Education for starters. the feds have no business sticking thier noses in education. that is a state and local issue.

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
It's stupid, it won't work and has no chance of working.

it works in many many other countries. the problem is our government HAS to start cutting spending.

 

[nonameo]

I promise you that if someone actually creates a national sales tax, the income tax will not go away. The income tax itself was supposed to be "temporary".

 

[bamacre]

This is really very pathetic, even for P&N.

We have almost two pages of posts trying to figure out the best and easiest way for the government to steal our money. Are you people so used to being taxed that you can't imagine spending your own damn money?

Of course we can cut spending, and dramatically. This is the issue.

We shouldn't be arguing about which position the government should use to screw us. "No, I prefer doggy-style." "No, missionary is fine, it just needs to be fixed."

The problem is government spending. The government does not spend the money we give them efficiently, and in many ways it is being thrown away, and even overseas.

We need to fix spending first, that is the priority, then we can tackle taxes.

 

[OutHouse]

Originally posted by: bamacre
This is really very pathetic, even for P&N.

We have almost two pages of posts trying to figure out the best and easiest way for the government to steal our money. Are you people so used to being taxed that you can't imagine spending your own damn money?

Of course we can cut spending, and dramatically. This is the issue.

We shouldn't be arguing about which position the government should use to screw us. "No, I prefer doggy-style." "No, missionary is fine, it just needs to be fixed."

The problem is government spending. The government does not spend the money we give them efficiently, and in many ways it is being thrown away, and even overseas.

We need to fix spending first, that is the priority, then we can tackle taxes.

a lot of that spending is to pay off the country's debt to the federal reserve.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: bamacre
This is really very pathetic, even for P&N.

We have almost two pages of posts trying to figure out the best and easiest way for the government to steal our money. Are you people so used to being taxed that you can't imagine spending your own damn money?

Of course we can cut spending, and dramatically. This is the issue.

We shouldn't be arguing about which position the government should use to screw us. "No, I prefer doggy-style." "No, missionary is fine, it just needs to be fixed."

The problem is government spending. The government does not spend the money we give them efficiently, and in many ways it is being thrown away, and even overseas.

We need to fix spending first, that is the priority, then we can tackle taxes.

a lot of that spending is to pay off the country's debt to the federal reserve.

Which further proves my point.

 

[Nitemare]

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: Skoorb
It's stupid, it won't work and has no chance of working.

it works in many many other countries. the problem is our government HAS to start cutting spending.

which is why we need a fiscally conservative candidate...I only count 2

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: bamacre
This is really very pathetic, even for P&N.

We have almost two pages of posts trying to figure out the best and easiest way for the government to steal our money. Are you people so used to being taxed that you can't imagine spending your own damn money?

Of course we can cut spending, and dramatically. This is the issue.

We shouldn't be arguing about which position the government should use to screw us. "No, I prefer doggy-style." "No, missionary is fine, it just needs to be fixed."

The problem is government spending. The government does not spend the money we give them efficiently, and in many ways it is being thrown away, and even overseas.

We need to fix spending first, that is the priority, then we can tackle taxes.

a lot of that spending is to pay off the country's debt to the federal reserve.

And our having a deficit every year makes it worse. Bamacre is right insofar that we do need to cut some spending. I'd combine spending cuts and taxing the wealthy more.

But the spending priorities won't be fixed until the power issues in our system are addressed, where the wealthy dominate the agenda.

That's where the public needs to stop being manipulated into voting for corporatist in well-funded campaigns, and vote for the progressives who will give the public more power.

 

[Throckmorton]

Originally posted by: Capitalizt
I prefer Ron Paul's idea of dropping the IRS and replacing it with nothing.

We need to cut the size and power of government. Any other plan just rearranges the chairs on the Titanic..

Replace the IRS with nothing? So 100% of funding comes from the Chinese?

 

[Jhhnn]

That's where the public needs to stop being manipulated into voting for corporatist in well-funded campaigns, and vote for the progressives who will give the public more power.

Duh!

Mostly, the public needs to quit listening to pie in the sky scam artists, aka the rightwing.

Examine the history of taxes and debt over the last 30 years- repubs deliver lower taxes, today, in return for higher taxes tomorrow, which is fine if your investments grow faster than your debt obligations- only true for those at the very top... most americans have no investments, and even fewer do now after the refi craze and fall in property values...

They promise smaller, less intrusive govt, and deliver bigger, more intrusive govt... a stay at home foreign policy, while delivering expensive wars and occupations based on false premises... an ownership society where most of what people own is just debt...

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Throckmorton

Originally posted by: Capitalizt
I prefer Ron Paul's idea of dropping the IRS and replacing it with nothing.

We need to cut the size and power of government. Any other plan just rearranges the chairs on the Titanic..

Replace the IRS with nothing? So 100% of funding comes from the Chinese?

No. Our government receives revenue via other means.

If we dropped the IRS and replaced it with nothing, it would only take us back to revenues of 10 years ago.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Citrix

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: bamacre
We need to cut spending, drastically. Our government spends WAY too much money. Much of it wastefully.

Well cut spending on what? Whether you like it or not Americans actually like big government. Sure they might complain about it and say that we should reduce its size... but actions speak far louder then words. People LIKE social security, they LIKE medicare, they LIKE a huge bloated military, large highway systems, etc... etc.

So while I'm sure you don't... and there are certainly plenty of other Americans who want to make the government smaller, I believe you are badly outnumbered. This might not be the country for you.

Education for starters. the feds have no business sticking thier noses in education. that is a state and local issue.

Ok, that's about $60 billion out of $3 trillion. If we completely eliminate it that's 2% of the budget. (not only that, but a large amount of that will have to be taken up by the states unless you want to defund the education system in general... not something Paul supports anymore after he got off the 'abolish public schools' thing)

Also Nebor I would LOVE to see how 'proven' it is that educated people leave the country when taxes get too high. Or better yet, that we have a 'brain drain' going on at all. In case you haven't noticed WE drain the brain of the rest of the world... and they aren't coming here for the tax benefits.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: BoberFett
Jhhhn

How does progressive taxation keep people paying the same proportion? It keeps people at the bottom paying nothing and people at the top paying more. Clearly taxation brings out the raving lunatics on the left as well.

That said, a national sales tax is a horrible idea as it is totally regressive. The best system would be a true flat income tax. Every dollar earned from any source would be taxed at the same rate. Income, interest, capital gains, all at the same rate.

I think he is referring to progressive taxation when combined with other things such as social security taxes and other fixed amount taxes (registration fees, etc.) I think I remember reading something about this not too long ago that found when you take all taxes into account the poor actually end up paying a tax rate that isn't too far off the very rich.

 

[Ryan]

AFAIK, the Fair Tax includes a rebate for lower income families/individuals to offset the burden of the consumption tax: http://www.fairtax.org/site/Pa...name=about_faq_answers

You'll find a response to just about every FARCE you guys have posted.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Ryan
AFAIK, the Fair Tax includes a rebate for lower income families/individuals to offset the burden of the consumption tax: http://www.fairtax.org/site/Pa...name=about_faq_answers

You'll find a response to just about every FARCE you guys have posted.

That goes a small way to addressing the problem, not nearly enough. The sales tax is simply not the right approach at all, however it's tweaked.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Ryan
AFAIK, the Fair Tax includes a rebate for lower income families/individuals to offset the burden of the consumption tax: http://www.fairtax.org/site/Pa...name=about_faq_answers

You'll find a response to just about every FARCE you guys have posted.

Riiiiiiiighht. The "Fair Tax" is a nightmare. Not only is the 23% revenue neutral point HIGHLY disputed (some place it as high as 30% or more), but it is an enforcement catastrophe. In that... there's no way to enforce it. Tax evasion and the black market would become so endemic I could easily see us crawling back to the old income tax system in no time.

Oh, and reading their evasions on how it somehow doesn't affect those living off of savings, etc. was pretty hilarious.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
Mostly, the public needs to quit listening to pie in the sky scam artists, aka the rightwing.

I'd say the issue is with every extremist selling snake oil, not just the kooks on the right...

Examine the history of taxes and debt over the last 30 years- repubs deliver lower taxes, today, in return for higher taxes tomorrow,

As opposed to their extremist brethren on the left who propose to deliver high taxes today, and even highER taxes tomorrow?

most americans have no investments, and even fewer do now after the refi craze and fall in property values...

So where exactly do YOU place the blame for those poor decisions?

They promise smaller, less intrusive govt, and deliver bigger, more intrusive govt...

I'd agree with that, as it concerns the Bush admin.

a stay at home foreign policy, while delivering expensive wars and occupations based on false premises... an ownership society where most of what people own is just debt...

uhh, exactly which party do those statements NOT describe?! AFAIC, both parties promise the same snake oil, but deliver snake piss.

I should invest in a company that makes blinders...

 

[ainarm]

So you are saying you are more economically trained than all the independent economists that worked on the Fair Tax? Actually the 23% has been highly researched and confirmed by many very educated people. They only way you get to 30% is if you change the rules on how the tax is figured. And what there isn't tax evasion and black markets out there currently? Just because we change how the tax is collected won't change that at all one way or another. The Fair Tax is a wonderful idea whose time is here and hopefully we will manage to get a president who can understand this. Already supported by many of our Congressmen and Senators. Read, educate yourself and do it without changing the rules on how it is written and you might be surprised.

 

[1EZduzit]

We all know that a Fair Tax is one that taxes the other guy more then it does ourselves.