HTPC video and audio handshaking annoyances when using a receiver and wmc

[TastesLikeChicken]

Network tuners sound interesting, as a concept, but I don't need one.

I have a single HTPC, and was looking for an internal solution. I don't want boxes hanging off the case. My HTPC also only has 10/100 ethernet.

It's old, but it still works great, and I don't see any reason to upgrade it for the moment.

Edit: My previous HTPC was even older... It used an AMD Athlon XP 2800+, 2gb of DDR and an AGP Radeon 9700 Pro! It housed two 250gb drives in striped raid for the 3 Hauppage PVR-150s (always heard bad things about the multi-tuner 250 and 350 cards) connected via S-Video to 3 Dish Network receivers. It ran XP MCE and was connected through DVI-D to a 54" RPCRT HDTV.

The nice thing about an external network tuner is that it doesn't have to hang off the case. You can stash it next to the router, assuming there is a coax connection nearby, or anywhere else that is LAN/coax accessible.

An external unit also removes the heat from your case produced by the internal units, which is considerable. I had to mod my case with a fan blowing directly on the InfiniTV4 to keep the temps in line.

Plus you get tuner pooling with an external. I'm not sure why they can't do pooling with the internal devices since they do show up as network devices.

 

[evident]

Network tuners sound interesting, as a concept, but I don't need one.

I have a single HTPC, and was looking for an internal solution. I don't want boxes hanging off the case. My HTPC also only has 10/100 ethernet.

It's old, but it still works great, and I don't see any reason to upgrade it for the moment.

Edit: My previous HTPC was even older... It used an AMD Athlon XP 2800+, 2gb of DDR and an AGP Radeon 9700 Pro! It housed two 250gb drives in striped raid for the 3 Hauppage PVR-150s (always heard bad things about the multi-tuner 250 and 350 cards) connected via S-Video to 3 Dish Network receivers. It ran XP MCE and was connected through DVI-D to a 54" RPCRT HDTV.

i thought the same thing when i got my infinitv4. i only have one single htpc as well.

but the hdhomerun prime is just a much easier product to use. set it and forget it. put it next to your router. the infinitv 4 had alot more issues setting up and working on my PC. btw, the infinitv 4 also has network tuning capability. again, much bigger pain to set up.

 

[Aikouka]

Network tuners sound interesting, as a concept, but I don't need one.

I have a single HTPC, and was looking for an internal solution. I don't want boxes hanging off the case. My HTPC also only has 10/100 ethernet.

Would you (or anyone else in your household) be interested in watching TV on a non-dedicated PC? I mean... you can use WMC on a laptop too. Ever since I fried the HDD in my HTPC (fanless HTPC + 3.5" HDD = not good idea), I just use my desktop to record stuff. That would've been a pain with the PCI-E card since I'd have to move it around.

Ultimately, I have no desire to push you either way, but I'm just trying to make sure that you might not be inadvertently ignoring a use case that might be good for you.

btw, the infinitv 4 also has network tuning capability. again, much bigger pain to set up.

Keep in mind that the sharing feature on the 6 ETH is different than all of Ceton's other offerings. On the other offerings (4 PCI-E, 4 USB and 6 PCI-E), you can share tuners with other entities, but you're forced to dedicate them. They also rely on the host machine to handle the actual streaming. Now, to be clear, you can do this with the 6 ETH as well. However, with the beta firmware (it might be a standard feature by now... I'm not sure), you can do tuner pooling, which dynamically allocates a tuner to a client.

 

[evident]

Keep in mind that the sharing feature on the 6 ETH is different than all of Ceton's other offerings. On the other offerings (4 PCI-E, 4 USB and 6 PCI-E), you can share tuners with other entities, but you're forced to dedicate them. They also rely on the host machine to handle the actual streaming. Now, to be clear, you can do this with the 6 ETH as well. However, with the beta firmware (it might be a standard feature by now... I'm not sure), you can do tuner pooling, which dynamically allocates a tuner to a client.

Tuner pooling is the only way to go IMO. would be a pain to manage tuner distribution and allocation manually.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Interesting how this thread has morphed. Switching or turning off devices versus the tuner options . . .

 

[Fallen Kell]

Yeah, video and audio out from a HTPC are still issues to this day which is amazing when you think about it.

I get around it by having the HDMI out go to my pre-processor, but I have a DVI out that goes to a DVI on my TV, and simply use the HDMI for audio, and my TV is simply a monitor (gets a full 120 Hz 1920x1080 input from the PC). The great thing about the 120Hz is that it works perfectly with TV (30Hz or 60Hz) and video/movies at 24Hz since they all will scale up to 120Hz without any funky framerate changes (i.e. 24*5 = 120, 30*4=120, 60*2=120) so the pacing of the video display works with the 3 main video sources in this setup. If I used HDMI, my HTPC would have to change refresh rates for each of the different video sources for it to work properly, which simply doesn't work.

 

[bradly1101]

An external unit also removes the heat from your case produced by the internal units, which is considerable. I had to mod my case with a fan blowing directly on the InfiniTV4 to keep the temps in line.

Yes the heat issue was important to me because I wanted a virtually silent HTPC. The three-tuner HDHR Prime does get pretty hot and I have it tilted up a little bit so it gets air top and bottom. I can imagine a six-tuner card can get very hot.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Yes the heat issue was important to me because I wanted a virtually silent HTPC. The three-tuner HDHR Prime does get pretty hot and I have it tilted up a little bit so it gets air top and bottom. I can imagine a six-tuner card can get very hot.

I never had a problem with the SD HDHRPrime. The distance between the shelves where it lives -- maybe 3 to 4". The cabinet has an open back, with louvred/shutter doors on the front. The shutters on the top pair of doors are kept open so I can communicate with remote controllers.

So I just put my hand on the SDHDHRPrime, and I'm tempted to make a comparison about groping in the back-seat of a car at the drive-in theater when I was a teenager fulla beans and hormones. For electronics, that can't be all that warm. heh-heh -- "comfortably warm," for the comparison . . . :biggrin:

 

[Raduque]

Would you (or anyone else in your household) be interested in watching TV on a non-dedicated PC? I mean... you can use WMC

Honestly, no. I don't even really watch TV myself.

Ever since I fried the HDD in my HTPC (fanless HTPC + 3.5" HDD = not good idea)

My HTPC isn't fanless, but you can't hear it when it's on. It has two very slow (<1000rpm) 120mm fans, and a 2.5" sata drive. I should go with an SSD.

Ultimately, I have no desire to push you either way, but I'm just trying to make sure that you might not be inadvertently ignoring a use case that might be good for you.

I actually just came up with a use case for a network tuner - letting my server handle the recording and storage of content that 7MC plays.

I don't understand what you mean by tuner pooling.

 

[bradly1101]

I never had a problem with the SD HDHRPrime. The distance between the shelves where it lives -- maybe 3 to 4". The cabinet has an open back, with louvred/shutter doors on the front. The shutters on the top pair of doors are kept open so I can communicate with remote controllers.

So I just put my hand on the SDHDHRPrime, and I'm tempted to make a comparison about groping in the back-seat of a car at the drive-in theater when I was a teenager fulla beans and hormones. For electronics, that can't be all that warm. heh-heh -- "comfortably warm," for the comparison . . . :biggrin:

:biggrin:

I'm sure it doesn't need a lot of space and I go a little overboard, but I always keep a highly decorated hand fan nearby for those 'heated moments,' mainly for dramatics.....oh myyyyy

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

I don't understand what you mean by tuner pooling.

Tuner pooling means that the tuners are dynamically assigned to devices on the LAN on an as-required basis. Once they are no longer needed they are released and placed back in the "pool" so another device can use it.

Internal (PCIe) Ceton tuners can't do that. You have to dedicate a tuner to another device in a persistent connection. A dedicated tuner cannot be used by another device on the LAN and it cannot record a show that another device has scheduled, even if it's not in use.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Tuner pooling means that the tuners are dynamically assigned to devices on the LAN on an as-required basis. Once they are no longer needed they are released and placed back in the "pool" so another device can use it.

Internal (PCIe) Ceton tuners can't do that. You have to dedicate a tuner to another device in a persistent connection. A dedicated tuner cannot be used by another device on the LAN and it cannot record a show that another device has scheduled, even if it's not in use.

That's definitely the feature I would've wanted if I'd been more informed when I first purchased the HomeRun. But it gets down to this . .

Most people I know, and that includes my family here, across town, and up the coast in Tacoma -- they'd just rather have separate devices for their entertainment. We HTPC folks are a "niche." I'm even in a niche-within-the-niche, for preferring HTPC functionality within a general-purpose + gaming computer; most HTPC builds are "dedicated."

So even if I got the Ceton device, the fam-damn-ily would still be plugged into their STB's and Play-Stations. They'd HAVE HTPC functionality with their desktops, but they'd rather watch TV -- on their TV's. I'd be the only one to really use it.

Pity. I like configuring household-LAN-computer-Nirvana. But it's not worth it if the other players don't want to go to Nirvana. . . .

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Here's a thought. We'd like the "dynamic pooling" feature of the Ceton InfiniTV 6 eth, but the devices seem "buggy" from the Egg customer-reviews. You cannot ignore these reactions for such a device: it's not as likely that customer incompetence is behind the ratings, as you could suspect with motherboards. Especially, the heat problem is cited several times.

Instead of spending the $280, what if (I, we, you . . ) somebody decided to simply add a second HomeRun Prime to the network? You'd then spend maybe $110 for the HD HR Prime (check the Egg) -- OK, $120+tax/shipping.

I'm thinking that it would appear on the LAN with the first HD HR Prime. When reconfiguring Media Center for this or that computer, you'd simply choose one or the other -- not both. Then you have more "tuners" to allocate and spread around.

Meanwhile, you watch the reviews and resellers to see what Ceton is doing to improve the device.

See -- if all TV viewers were also computer-owners, and most TV viewers actually preferred an HTPC / Media Center experience, the market demand would spur companies like Ceton to do better with their existing designs -- or do it faster.

But that ain't the case. We here at the HTPC forum are like some sort of cult. As much as I always felt repulsed by cults, I like the idea of being in one which worships HTPC.

 

[evident]

yeah, this thread totally got derailed, lol. I still havent had time to try out the cheap $10 HDMI switch I got to see the display autodetect will get disabled. I'll do it this saturday and report back.

ee -- if all TV viewers were also computer-owners, and most TV viewers actually preferred an HTPC / Media Center experience, the market demand would spur companies like Ceton to do better with their existing designs -- or do it faster.

But that ain't the case. We here at the HTPC forum are like some sort of cult. As much as I always felt repulsed by cults, I like the idea of being in one which worships HTPC.

HTPC and cablecards is the only and last way to control the out of control costs that the cable companies are pushing on the subscribers. our monthly subscription services are cut to the core because of the HTPC. we pay about $89 a month after taxes for the FIOS triple play. if we decided to cut out cable tv entirely, their double play(phone, internet, and we NEED the land line) package ends up being $79, in which you might as well pay extra $10 and get TV.

and i simply cant imagine roku, apple tv or any of those other gimped set top boxes in my primary movie/tv room. they are just too limited on what can be displayed. bedroom, sure, but anything else, forget about it!

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Here's a thought. We'd like the "dynamic pooling" feature of the Ceton InfiniTV 6 eth, but the devices seem "buggy" from the Egg customer-reviews. You cannot ignore these reactions for such a device: it's not as likely that customer incompetence is behind the ratings, as you could suspect with motherboards. Especially, the heat problem is cited several times.

Instead of spending the $280, what if (I, we, you . . ) somebody decided to simply add a second HomeRun Prime to the network? You'd then spend maybe $110 for the HD HR Prime (check the Egg) -- OK, $120+tax/shipping.

I'm thinking that it would appear on the LAN with the first HD HR Prime. When reconfiguring Media Center for this or that computer, you'd simply choose one or the other -- not both. Then you have more "tuners" to allocate and spread around.

The HDHR Prime already does tuner pooling. It did it long before Ceton began offering it with the 6 ETH. Adding another HDHR Prime just adds more tuners to the tuner pool.

One potential advantage to using the 6 ETH instead of 2 HDHR Primes is that some cablecos will charge a fair amount for a 2nd cable card. If your second cable card rental is an additional $9.99/mo it adds up pretty quickly.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

The HDHR Prime already does tuner pooling. It did it long before Ceton began offering it with the 6 ETH. Adding another HDHR Prime just adds more tuners to the tuner pool.

One potential advantage to using the 6 ETH instead of 2 HDHR Primes is that some cablecos will charge a fair amount for a 2nd cable card. If your second cable card rental is an additional $9.99/mo it adds up pretty quickly.

$9.99 is excessive. I can check my own monthly bill again, but it's in the vicinity of $2. The cable-providers had to tread carefully on this, because of TIVO and other devices.

But my real question, as follows. I had the experience of configuring the software for HDHRPrime on two computers. Once the second computer had access to the device, there was only a single tuner of the three available for recording.

Do you think perhaps this was some glitch in earlier SiliconDust software or drivers? My current drivers have been more recently updated since I had the experience of limitations.

I also discovered -- just as recently -- that my Kaspersky IS software had assigned SillyDust programs or DLLs to a level of "limited trust." I changed this, since anything I buy with hardware should be "fully trusted."

So maybe I haven't found out yet -- that the dynamic pooling is really operative on my system with the Silly dust.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

yeah, this thread totally got derailed, lol. I still havent had time to try out the cheap $10 HDMI switch I got to see the display autodetect will get disabled. I'll do it this saturday and report back.

HTPC and cablecards is the only and last way to control the out of control costs that the cable companies are pushing on the subscribers. our monthly subscription services are cut to the core because of the HTPC. we pay about $89 a month after taxes for the FIOS triple play. if we decided to cut out cable tv entirely, their double play(phone, internet, and we NEED the land line) package ends up being $79, in which you might as well pay extra $10 and get TV.

and i simply cant imagine roku, apple tv or any of those other gimped set top boxes in my primary movie/tv room. they are just too limited on what can be displayed. bedroom, sure, but anything else, forget about it!

Let me apologize for that. For my part, it happened that your particular "HDTV-management" issue was part of a more general set of issues with both video and audio. Then we got to talking about the tuner-thing, and there's another thread very close in the queue with this one about HTPC and DVR.

Did you ever resolve your problem with the plasma HDTV?

Just for comparison, I think I rechecked my own cable-internet-phone subscription, and what you cite seems about right. But then, add up the extra STB's, premium and encrypted content, and even the cable-cards, and you'll nearly double the increment for "cable-TV" over the base subscription.

I think it's easier to replace the STBs, but certain singular parts of the subscription won't work in Media Center (or I have yet to discover how), such as "On Demand" channels. In the range 01 to 999 or above, there are approximately ten or fifteen channels for the main "movies on demand" menu and library as well as individual sets of premium channels.

It would seem to make sense that any cable-card network-tuner solution for W7/8 MC should be supplemented by throwing at least one STB into your subscription terms.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

$9.99 is excessive. I can check my own monthly bill again, but it's in the vicinity of $2. The cable-providers had to tread carefully on this, because of TIVO and other devices.

But my real question, as follows. I had the experience of configuring the software for HDHRPrime on two computers. Once the second computer had access to the device, there was only a single tuner of the three available for recording.

Do you think perhaps this was some glitch in earlier SiliconDust software or drivers? My current drivers have been more recently updated since I had the experience of limitations.

I also discovered -- just as recently -- that my Kaspersky IS software had assigned SillyDust programs or DLLs to a level of "limited trust." I changed this, since anything I buy with hardware should be "fully trusted."

So maybe I haven't found out yet -- that the dynamic pooling is really operative on my system with the Silly dust.

The FCC mandates that the charge for the first cable card can only be up to a certain amount. Maybe $2.99? Don't remember exactly. There is no such restriction on the second cable card. Some companies, I think Verizon is one, will charge up to $9.99 for a second cable card.

When configuring the HDHR Prime software you should be able to select all tuners, which enables dynamic tuner allocation. If there is only one tuner showing as available, call SD tech support and they should be able to straighten you out.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

The FCC mandates that the charge for the first cable card can only be up to a certain amount. Maybe $2.99? Don't remember exactly. There is no such restriction on the second cable card. Some companies, I think Verizon is one, will charge up to $9.99 for a second cable card.

When configuring the HDHR Prime software you should be able to select all tuners, which enables dynamic tuner allocation. If there is only one tuner showing as available, call SD tech support and they should be able to straighten you out.

I have a funny feeling that the problem stemmed from the Kaspersky restriction. [It did that all on its own -- a bit too aggressive for my liking.]

I had scheduled a recording this evening, forgot that I'd done so, and started recording a second program on the fly. Before I knew it, I'd switched channels again -- the other two tuners recorded without problem.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

The FCC mandates that the charge for the first cable card can only be up to a certain amount. Maybe $2.99? Don't remember exactly. There is no such restriction on the second cable card. Some companies, I think Verizon is one, will charge up to $9.99 for a second cable card.

When configuring the HDHR Prime software you should be able to select all tuners, which enables dynamic tuner allocation. If there is only one tuner showing as available, call SD tech support and they should be able to straighten you out.

Here's the Charter link which states the pricing on cablecards.

It's a flat $2.00/month, and it only says "per cablecard."

The whole point of building your own computer or seeking a different path of access to cable-TV within the household: some extra degree of relative independence, one could suppose. Depending on the continued availability of cablecards for devices, or a flat fee per unit -- can spawn a little anxiety.