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HTPC/Gaming Rig

G

Galatian

Senior member
Hey,

this has probably been asked several times, but I have only found some fairly outdated articles. I want to start a new project for a power efficient HTPC, but I want to run some games via Steam Big Picture mode as well. As I said I want this to be as power efficient as possible and have it in a nice tiny case. I gather mini-ITX would be the way to go, coupled with a Intel Core i5-3470T or 3570T. The former runs a TDP of 35W but only has 2 cores and HT, while the later run a TDP of 45W but has 4 corse and no HT. Is it actually useful to have a low power version or would I achieve better price/performance/thermals with undervolting a i5-3570K? Since I want to use a discrete graphic card I don't really care about the HD4000. Perhaps a A10-5700, would be better?

For graphic card's I'm usually an nvidia fan, but this is not written in stone. I love my 3D Vision on the EVGA 670 FTW in my gaming rig, but I guess that one is just overkill. Does 3D Vision or HD3D actually work with a 3D televisions? I suppose a 650TI would probably be just fine for my needs, but I'm not sure about the thermals.

Now comes the hardest part: the case. I've looked at various German online shops, but no case really struck me. It should have at least one external 5,25" slot (normal or slimline) for a Bluray drive and either one 2,5" slot for an SSD and one 3,5" for the data HDD or conversely two 2,5" slots or one 3,5" (but then a dual 2,5" bracket needs to fit). Most mini-ITX cases I have seen already come with a power supply. I'm really not sure if they are any good (power efficiency/cooling/noise) and if they are powerful enough to power everything including the graphic card even under load? Is a passive power supply good enough or do I want the fan of the power supply in such small cases? Also what are your opinions on the shuttle Barebones? They seem to be fairly prices and of good built quality and the form factors seems to be as small as you could get or would be a custom built smaller?

Now the big question: will it be worthwhile to wait for Haswell + the new graphic card generation?

I know these are perhaps pretty difficult questions and maybe there is not (yet) the hardware out to do what I'm planning to do, but I'm happy for recommendations. Also: the price is not that important.
 
Well, try an i3 3220/3240, paired with a HD7750. It will be very efficient and will allow you to do a bit of gaming. If you want more consider the 7770 as it will pack more 'Umph' for more or less the same power/heat. Keeping in mind the 7770 needs a PCIe connector and 2 expansion slots. I am no expert with cases, but i could help if you would give us a budget.

I suggested the above cards because of power efficiency, I assume a HTPC needs to consume as much energy as possible
 
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Pedroc1999 said:
I am no expert with cases, but i could help if you would give us a budget.

I suggested the above cards because of power efficiency, I assume a HTPC needs to consume as much energy as possible
Click to expand...

I mean as less energy as possible!?!
I'm really not budget constrained. Less is always better, but this is more of a project on how energy efficient yet highly playable/low noise I can get. But to put a figure into the room: I'd go no higher then 1500€.
 
Get a "K" chip and underclock it. Turn off cores as needed. Undervolt also if needed. Now, H77 does not support overclocking, but underclocking by setting the multiplier lower might be doable.

7750 is a very low power GPU, with a TDP of only 55 watts.

Whether waiting for Haswell is worth it depends on how pressing do you need this build now and how you're willing to take risk jumping into an immature product that might have issues.
 
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Yes,Yes Sorry!!! Typing error!!!

CPU - i5 3570k
Mobo - GA-H77N-WIFI
Cooling - Stock or H60 if a case supports it
Ram - 8 GB 1600 Ram
DVD Drive - Upto you really, the variety is endless but look for a blueray reader with dvd-rw
*Primary HDD - Samsung 840/840 Pro* This is upto you to decide if you want to include this
Seconday HDD - Seagate ST31000524AS or Similar
GPU - MSI Hd 7750
PSU - 430 Watt Corsair builder series
Case - No expert, have no idea which one but will have a look


The above excluding the case and the Blueray player will cost you between 650-750 euros (converted from £ )

Which supplier will you be using?
 
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It might not make sense to worry about underclocking and undervolting.

Even with Sandy Bridge, the idle power of the i3/i5 CPUs is roughly the same, and so is the power use for video playback:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article1202-page3.html

intel already does the work to turn off unused parts of the CPU for you.

At least in that test, the only time the stock i5 will use more than an extra watt of power than a low-voltage underclocked version is when it's doing something that needs more CPU power (like gaming).
 
DaveSimmons said:
Can you get a SilverStone SG-05 / 06 or -07 there?

http://www.silentpcreview.com/silverstone-sg07

http://www.silentpcreview.com/Silverstone_SG05_SG06
Click to expand...

Yes I found them and they look both nice and seem to have efficient cooling. I gather they only differ with their wattage. Is the included power supply any good? Meaning Power efficiency and noise?

DaveSimmons said:
It might not make sense to worry about underclocking and undervolting.

Even with Sandy Bridge, the idle power of the i3/i5 CPUs is roughly the same, and so is the power use for video playback:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article1202-page3.html

intel already does the work to turn off unused parts of the CPU for you.

At least in that test, the only time the stock i5 will use more than an extra watt of power than a low-voltage underclocked version is when it's doing something that needs more CPU power (like gaming).
Click to expand...

That's what I can't get my head around. I know that there are just some niche cases where a low power IVB part would be useful, since usually having a faster processor run for idle power savings is saving more power then having a low power processor calculating longer on the same workload. Now the things is when it comes to gaming I would look at a let's say 5-8 h (ok I admit even sometimes longer) Civilization 5 marathons. My gut tells me the low power parts will draw less power over that period of time, but maybe I'm wrong. How much energy would I actually save or is this negligible?

Pedroc1999 said:
the H60 may be overkill but it will keep you CPU cooler and be quieter than the stock heatsink
Click to expand...

I definitely wanted to tinker around with a full loop water cooling solution with my next gaming rig, but I never considered even a closed loop solution for such a small case. Would this really fit inside one of those Silverstone cases? Will it actually be quieter then a Air cooler, or will the small form factor still produce so much heat that the radiator fan will run at full speed no matter what?

I already have a Samsung 840 256 GB, a 1 TB 3,5" HDD and a XFX Radeon 7770 in my old gaming rig, so I'd definitely save money using them in the new case. I got this to run my old rig on my television, but it is ugly and loud and I just have that itch to build something new and efficient, though this is not that urgent, so if I can expect some major energy saving with Haswell and Radeon 8000 series (although it thought those are only rebrand - or was that just the mobile parts?) or Geforce 700 series GPUs I'll gladly wait.

As a supplier I would usually just use my trusted web stores...amazon.de, alternate.de and mindfactory.de
 
Haswell uses the same 22nm process so dont expect miracles, they focues the energy savings on tablets etc this time. Most cases has atleast a 120mm fan, lots of miniitx cases can handle itm due to its consideravly compact size, it will problably be the only H20 cooler you will fit in a miniitx case though
 
Well. That build is similar to mine but would consume more power due to the gfx card. My build, if unclocked and undervolted, will be very efficient andd still rather powerfull
 
Pedroc1999 said:
Well. That build is similar to mine but would consume more power due to the gfx card. My build, if unclocked and undervolted, will be very efficient andd still rather powerfull
Click to expand...
The links were more to show how things like the cooler and video card fit in there.
 
My gut tells me the low power parts will draw less power over that period of time, but maybe I'm wrong. How much energy would I actually save or is this negligible?
Click to expand...

If it is written this way, the game might adapt by turning down the artificial intelligence level -- with less CPU time available it just does less "thinking" (searching for better moves). So you save a little power, but don't have as good of an opponent.

It might also turn down other settings, like the frame rate for visuals. So you save a little power but get less pleasing visuals.

If the game is not buggy, it is using the CPU for a reason. If you take away the power (underclock), it can't do as much work.
 
Galatian said:
Yes I found them and they look both nice and seem to have efficient cooling. I gather they only differ with their wattage. Is the included power supply any good? Meaning Power efficiency and noise?
Click to expand...

The Silverstone PSU's included with Sugo's are generally pretty decent. Not a crazy Platinum rated power supply with zero ripple, but certainly more than enough for an HTPC with a GPU.

Also, the SG05, 06, and 07 are all differently-sized cases.

Galatian said:
That's what I can't get my head around. I know that there are just some niche cases where a low power IVB part would be useful, since usually having a faster processor run for idle power savings is saving more power then having a low power processor calculating longer on the same workload. Now the things is when it comes to gaming I would look at a let's say 5-8 h (ok I admit even sometimes longer) Civilization 5 marathons. My gut tells me the low power parts will draw less power over that period of time, but maybe I'm wrong. How much energy would I actually save or is this negligible?
Click to expand...

I think your fundamental misconception is you're thinking that the lower TDP parts are meant to reduce overall power consumption. That is simply not the case. The T in TDP stands for Thermal. In other words, the low TDP parts are for use in situations where your cooling solution cannot effectively dissipate the 77W of a full-power chip. That is not the case in a good ITX case like a Sugo.

When you're not thermally constrained, the full power chip will use less total energy than the low power version (given the same workload of course). This is known as the race to idle principle, and is the foundation of the power efficiency gains that we've seen since Pentium M onward.

Galatian said:
I definitely wanted to tinker around with a full loop water cooling solution with my next gaming rig, but I never considered even a closed loop solution for such a small case. Would this really fit inside one of those Silverstone cases? Will it actually be quieter then a Air cooler, or will the small form factor still produce so much heat that the radiator fan will run at full speed no matter what?
Click to expand...

I would not try to stuff an H60 (or really any self-contained liquid cooler) into a mini-ITX case. They are much bulkier than your standard slimline downdraft style cooler like a Silverstone NT06.
 
Pedroc1999 said:
OP have you managed to decide upon a case yet?
Click to expand...

Edit: Tapatalk somehow ate my lengthy post so here is what I wrote earlier:

I'm definitely not decided yet. I was taking a look at the Shuttle Barebones. They cost around 350€ come with a proprietary mainboard, but they are fully mini-ITX compliant, so you can upgrade if you want to. The dimensions are roughly the same as the SilverStone cases. Their PSU is rated for 500W and 80+ Bronze. They include their own heatpipe + fan CPU cooling solution and have 2 mini PCIe slots, one which can be used for a WLAN adaptor for example and the second one for mSATA. The design is certainly nice and attractive. Does anybody have experience with using a Shuttle Barebone system? Is the PSU and thermals ok? Is the heatpipe solution any good? Would I get better thermals with the SilverStone case?

Also I'm still not getting the point of the low voltage Core i5 processors. For example I checked CPU-Z when playing Civilization 5 on my main rig (Core i5-3570K @4,5GHz using +offset). It will use roughly 30-40W constantly while gaming (checked this with CoreTemperature). I understand that the low voltage CPUs produce less heat, which is already useful enough because I'm sure thermals are always of concern in a HTPC while gaming. The question still remains: will I also save let's say 10W when gaming 8 hours straight, when using a low voltage processor or can I get the same results with seriously undervolting and adjusting the multipliers on a K CPU?

Also I pretty much set on an nvidia card because they do support 3DTV Play. It is essential 3D Vision, but using the 3D glasses of the television instead of the nvidia Shutter glasses. It does also support 3D Blu-Rays. I think I'll just stick with the EVGA 670 FTW, as I have first hand experience with that card and think it runs pretty quiet. I'm just not sure about the size. Will this card fit in either the SilverStone case or the Shuttle Barebone?

Also is the H60 a no-go per se, or do I just have to find a case that can fit a 120mm radiator?

Do these 1,35V low voltage RAM modules work on normal Z77 mainboards or is this more like trial an error. All mini-ITX boards say they need 1,5V RAM modules, but maybe they'll all be just fine when setting the UEFI voltage for the RAM to 1,35V.
 
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The 120mm mount is all you need as long as you have some clearance either side. Shuttlebarebones.... Im against them! I just dont like them. If you look at the mobo i said it comes with a wifi module and all ypu need is antenas. The 670 may or may not fit, but it will be a matter of milimeters if it does
 
Well thanks for all the inputs so far. I saw that Haswell will actually come with a 35W quad core, so since this is not so urgent (other then the itch to built something new) I might as well just wait and wait for possibly better cases to appear. Are there any informations out on when to expect new nvidia cards?
 
Galatian said:
Also I'm still not getting the point of the low voltage Core i5 processors. For example I checked CPU-Z when playing Civilization 5 on my main rig (Core i5-3570K @4,5GHz using +offset). It will use roughly 30-40W constantly while gaming (checked this with CoreTemperature). I understand that the low voltage CPUs produce less heat, which is already useful enough because I'm sure thermals are always of concern in a HTPC while gaming. The question still remains: will I also save let's say 10W when gaming 8 hours straight, when using a low voltage processor or can I get the same results with seriously undervolting and adjusting the multipliers on a K CPU?
Click to expand...

First of all, I would recommend rereading my previous post on the topic.

In sort, NO a lower TDP processor will not reduce the total energyconsumed over over a given period of time. In fact, it will probably use more energy because it has to stay at maximum speed (and power) for longer.

The point of a lower TDP processor is if your case design cannot handle the heat output of a full TDP processor for any thermally significant length of time (1-2 seconds). Lower TDP parts are about staying within the thermal constraints of a chassis, and have nothing to do with using less energy.

A normal ITX enclosure has enough cooling capacity for a full TDP processor, so there is no reason to consider a lower TDP version.

Galatian said:
Also is the H60 a no-go per se, or do I just have to find a case that can fit a 120mm radiator?
Click to expand...

There is nothing wrong with it per se, you will just hate yourself when you try to mount it in an ITX case.

Galatian said:
Do these 1,35V low voltage RAM modules work on normal Z77 mainboards or is this more like trial an error. All mini-ITX boards say they need 1,5V RAM modules, but maybe they'll all be just fine when setting the UEFI voltage for the RAM to 1,35V.
Click to expand...

A 1.35V DIMM will work fine at 1.5V, it will just draw more power than it necessarily needs to.
 
mfenn said:
First of all, I would recommend rereading my previous post on the topic.

In sort, NO a lower TDP processor will not reduce the total energyconsumed over over a given period of time. In fact, it will probably use more energy because it has to stay at maximum speed (and power) for longer.

The point of a lower TDP processor is if your case design cannot handle the heat output of a full TDP processor for any thermally significant length of time (1-2 seconds). Lower TDP parts are about staying within the thermal constraints of a chassis, and have nothing to do with using less energy.

A normal ITX enclosure has enough cooling capacity for a full TDP processor, so there is no reason to consider a lower TDP version.



There is nothing wrong with it per se, you will just hate yourself when you try to mount it in an ITX case.



A 1.35V DIMM will work fine at 1.5V, it will just draw more power than it necessarily needs to.
Click to expand...

I understand the concept of racing to idle, but this wouldn't apply to an straight 8 hour gaming run as the processor would always be under load. Tomshardware did a test and the T processor used around 10 W less energy when under load for the same workload. Of course they also concluded that this saving is always mood because the processor has to run longer.
I just doubt I will feel the difference between both processors when gaming (though round turn times might take longer on Civ 5, but 10 sec is not going to make a big difference in the long run). So my question still remains: wouldn't a T processor be more energy efficient when I really don't look at finishing a workload but rather have it run under full load for the same amount of time? The question seems to be yes. What has to been seen though, if a T processor is powerful enough for gaming purpose.

Also I'm not trying to run a 1,35V stick on 1,5V. I'm trying to figure out if a mainboard that says it supports 1,5V RAM modules can run a 1,35V at 1,35V.

Sorry if my writings are confusing...English not my native language.
 
Have you used the Task Manager CPU graph to see if the load really is constant while gaming?

In many programs the CPU use drops to near 0% while waiting for your input. So race to idle does apply.

The Silverstone and Shuttle cases are fine with the thermal output of a regular, normal-clocked CPU, so there is no reason to underclock or get a low-power chip for them.

For power savings, you might do better switching one light bulb to LED or CFL, or just turning off the lights in a room while you're not in it.
 
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Lower clockspeed results in lower power consumption and thus heat produced. Lower clockspeed is the main difference between a Pentium G620 and its lower TDP G620T counterpart. The Pentium G620T has a lower multiplier(bus/core ratio) of 22 while the G620 has a multiplier of 26.

Similarly, the 3570K has a default multiplier of 34 while the 3570T has a multiplier of 23.
 
DaveSimmons said:
Have you used the Task Manager CPU graph to see if the load really is constant while gaming?

In many programs the CPU use drops to near 0% while waiting for your input. So race to idle does apply.

The Silverstone and Shuttle cases are fine with the thermal output of a regular, normal-clocked CPU, so there is no reason to underclock or get a low-power chip for them.

For power savings, you might do better switching one light bulb to LED or CFL, or just turning off the lights in a room while you're not in it.
Click to expand...

Yes thanks. It's not at full load, but also not at 0%. I guess with the reduces clock speed of a T model would bring them up to 100% load and hence I would not save energy at all. So I truly am better of with a K series and simply undervolting a little bit.

BTW: Normal light bulbs have been outlawed here in Germany (and I believe the rest of the EU). Although I have been using CFL as long as I can remember, even before the law was passed. Energy is expensive here in Germany (and with out dumb politicians it is extremely increasing this year). I only got A standard or better electric devices around and turn everything off (no standby) while not in use. I'm still paying 100€ per month on electricity (that is with a warm water boiler though + 2 persons).

Torn Mind said:
Lower clockspeed results in lower power consumption and thus heat produced. Lower clockspeed is the main difference between a Pentium G620 and its lower TDP G620T counterpart. The Pentium G620T has a lower multiplier(bus/core ratio) of 22 while the G620 has a multiplier of 26.

Similarly, the 3570K has a default multiplier of 34 while the 3570T has a multiplier of 23.
Click to expand...

Yes I think I have finally wrapped my head around this issue...I so wanted to believe Intel I can save energy with those processors...marketing...
 
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