How's this for a passive HTPC?

[Bobsy]

Hello all,

First of all, I must tell you that I am aware that there is a home theater PC section in this forum, but it seems to be getting very little attention so I decided to post here.

This will be my first build in 4 years, and my second build overall. I would like to hear comments on what I've got in mind.

1. This PC will be used as an HTPC for four tasks: a) to watch movies streaming from a NAS on an HDTV, b) to run Picasa to view photos, c) to run iTunes and JRiver to listen to music and d) to watch some Youtube content. That's it. Music playback is CRITICAL for me. I have a Cambridge Audio 840C CD player that has two digital inputs, so I use it as an external DAC. Having a digital audio out port on the PC is a MUST, which is why I stopped looking at the Intel NUC.

2. Budget is $600 to $650 excluding the OS.

3. I will buy parts in Canada, mostly from NCIX (www.ncix.com).

4. I don't have allegiance except a preference for Intel CPUs (due to a lack of knowledge on AMD and remembering they had lousy x86 compatibility in the late 1990s).

5. I have these parts that I would like to use:
a) Intel SSD 320 Series 120 GB
b) G.Skill F3-12800CL9-2GBRL (2x) DDR3-1333 (total 4 GB)
c) A currently unused license for Win8 Pro 64 bits

Note: I wanted to recycle the i3-530 from my ageing main rig for this project, but the selected mATX passive case (Streacom FC5 EVO) is too expensive. I'll do something else with it.

6. Default speeds only, no OC.

7. Will drive a 1080p HDTV

9. Would like to build this in the next few weeks.

10. No software needed, I'll just use iTunes, JRiver, XBMC and Picasa.

Here is what I had in mind, followed by options. Everything is driven by the case, which matters a lot to me. The system must fit well with my receiver.

Case: Perfect Home Theater (P.H.T.) FLM-7-Silver ($150) (http://www.shop.perfecthometheater....ini-PC-HTPC-aluminum-chassis-FLM-7-Silver.htm)
Mobo: Asus H87i-PLUS Mini-ITX LGA1150 ($110)
CPU: i3-4130T (35W TDP) ($125)
RAM: see above. (will it work?)
SSD : see above.
HDD : none
ODD : none
PSU: Streacom nano150 (150W pico-PSU + 150W AC/DC adapter) ($85)

Total cost: $470

I sometimes wonder if this PC will be reliable and durable, given the passive cooling, so here another case/cooling option I am considering:

Case: P.H.T. ITX-7-Silver ($91) (http://www.shop.perfecthometheater.com/ITX-7-Silver-Mini-HTPC-aluminum-chassis-ITX-7-Silver.htm)
Case fan: Noctua NF-R8 PWM
CPU cooler: Noctua NH-L9i

This would probably make a near-silent PC.

Finally, you should know that I am not very open to selecting another case between the two above... let's say it will be difficult to convince me.

Thoughts? Comments? Thank you very much!

 

[mfenn]

What you have in your first config looks good. This is a good application for the T series CPUs because you are going to be TDP limited in a fanless case that's sitting in a typical HT cabinet.

How important is perfect 23.976 Hz playback to you? Intel IGPs have some trouble with that, but are fine for the typical 60 Hz TV input.

As for motherboard, the ASRock H81M-ITX has optical S/PDIF output for $85 - $20 MIR, so you could save some money over the ASUS.

 

[Ken g6]

How important is perfect 23.976 Hz playback to you? Intel IGPs have some trouble with that, but are fine for the typical 60 Hz TV input.

Actually, it looks like Intel fixed that in Haswell. The article's a bit confusing, but the "frame drop every 4 minutes" refers to Ivy Bridge.

 

[piasabird]

When you get into Win 8.1, assuming you upgrade, the integrated video drivers don't work that well when it comes to integrating the sound over HDMI. Some people have had to fix this problem by using a video card.

 

[crashtech]

The nice thing about passive cooling is that there are no fans to wear out and no (or very little) dirt to need periodically blowing out of the case. I love a PC with no moving parts. it's very 21st century.

 

[Bobsy]

Ken_g6 beat me to it: the 23.976 Hz playback issue is 99.999% solved on Haswell. According to Anandtech, "madVR reports frame drops / repeats only once every 6 hours or more in the quiescent state." That's no biggie. The only drawback remaining by not using a discrete GPU is summarized in the last statement of the Anandtech article: "The few who care about advanced madVR scaling algorithms (such as Jinc and the anti-ringing filters for Lanczos) may need to fork out for a discrete GPU, but even those will probably be of the higher end variety rather than the entry level GT 640s and AMD 7750s that we have been suggesting so far." I have no idea what these scaling algorithms do. Moreover, even if the case had room for it, I would not install a powerful discrete GPU inside a passively cooled and pico-PSU powered machine.

mfenn, your suggestion that I get the ASRock H81M-ITX is fantastic! This will save me more than $50. I wanted the Asus because I keep reading good reviews on their products, but I do so of ASRock too. They are often value leaders in roundups.

I just have one concern with going from H87 to H81. According to Wikipedia, H81 does not support Intel Clear Video. However, ASRock says the H81-based mobo does. I guess I should believe ASRock?

piasabird, I think I'll be able to avoid the sound over HDMI issue by using the optical audio out.

 

[Bobsy]

Just noticed I'd also lose the front USB3 header. That's slightly annoying. Do you think I could run a cable from one of the back USB3 ports, through a hole in the I/O shield and all the way to the front?

 

[crashtech]

I'm seeing a $35 CDN difference, which might not be that bad considering the hassle of kludging the USB 3.0 and not really knowing for sure about Clear Video. I tend to take marketing info like that with a big grain of salt. Maybe it's just me, but nearly every time I try and cheap out on a mobo I end up unhappy.

 

[Bobsy]

I don't think I'll need the front USB3, but I have a solution should it becomes a need. I found this adapter that would do the trick. The cost is nil since I would have to purchase an internal cable even if the mobo had the correct header (the case only comes with a USB2 internal cable). Since I won't use an expansion card, I would be able to run the cable through there, with a hole just big enough for the cable. I wonder why the Cooler Master cable has two USB3 male plugs. One would be enough I think.

The price difference is larger than $50 CDN due to the mail-in rebate ($20 off). Perhaps you missed that? For $55, I can live with having to plug the occasional USB3 in the back. Since this will be a nice-looking passively-cooled computer, I will not hide it in an HT cabinet but leave it exposed.

 

[crashtech]

I'm sure it will work out well. I recently built my wife a passively cooled VESA mounted PC with an Akasa Euler and that same 4130T and she thinks it's great! I hope you'll post updates on the build as it progresses.

 

[Bobsy]

Thank you crashtest. I'll provide updates.

I just need to finalize one part and that's the power supply. I decided to deal with that issue separately on the HTPC forum since it seems so specific. Link here. This is well beyond my limited knowledge of computers.

 

[mfenn]

I wouldn't worry about ClearVideo too much. Post-processing is something that a higher-end renderer like madVR is going to implement by itself anyway.

As for your PSU question, yes the 4-pin ATX12V connector is required, the board will not post without it. That goes for any Haswell board, not just the ASRock. You can pick up the PICOPSU-150-XT instead.

 

[Bobsy]

Thank you for your suggestion mfenn. I was hoping to use the 120W with variable input voltage so that I would enjoy the high quality and efficiency power input that jonnyGURU describes in his article.

I kept on looking for a solution and discovered that using the Molex plug with an appropriate adapter will actually work just fine. Problem solved!

I'll get the parts and put this baby together. I'll let you know how it went. Cheers.

 

[mindless1]

Go with Intel if you want but there's no reason to avoid AMD due to quirks 20 years ago, no special setup issues.

 

[Bobsy]

mindless1, I don't know if you edited your post, but I can't see here your original post about passive vs. active cooling. You mentioned "learning from mistakes of the past" and are getting me worried about going for a fully passive setup. I have seen more people recommending at least some active cooling vs. going all fanless. What's your experience? I am on the fence (see first post) between passive and active (but still quiet).

 

[Charlie98]

TBH, I don't know why a fully passive system is such a worthy goal...? Even if you passively cool the CPU, just a single case fan would help move the hot air off the CPU's heat exchanger and out of the case. Using a quality (quiet, efficient) fan and either undervolting it, or controlling it with a fan controller you can reduce the RPM to where you wouldn't hear it anyway.

 

[Bobsy]

Well, I guess it's a lot easier to get silence from a passive setup than an active one. Maybe that's why?

While I still don't have a dedicated HTPC, I have occasionally hooked up a Ivy Bridge laptop to my HDTV. I have to admit that noise was never a problem. I could not hear the laptop from a couple of feet away.

Does anyone have experience with ASRock's Fan-Tastic Tuning software?

 

[mindless1]

mindless1, I don't know if you edited your post, but I can't see here your original post about passive vs. active cooling. You mentioned "learning from mistakes of the past" and are getting me worried about going for a fully passive setup. I have seen more people recommending at least some active cooling vs. going all fanless. What's your experience? I am on the fence (see first post) between passive and active (but still quiet).

I edited it because I didn't want to invest the time in an ongoing discussion and it seemed a little like threadcrapping.

Mistakes from the past means not setting a system up to deal with some concern then shunning fans instead of dealing with the issue, that good fans are very reliable, and filtered intake with positive case pressurization or a well sealed case takes care of dust. A nearly silent (completely so from a distance) fan moving a little air is a lot better than fanless.

Fanless is just larger, heavier, more costly, for shorter lifespan. It can be done but you can't have equal lifespan without at least two of the three former issues, and there's no real reason to go fanless except in a severe duty environment like a desert where sand would foul everything, and in that situation you have to heatsink to a sealed chassis as heatsink and may still need a fan, just not one exposed to the outside world.

If a person designs for a fully passive system, adding a case exhaust or intake fan makes that system even better.

 

[Charlie98]

Well, I guess it's a lot easier to get silence from a passive setup than an active one. Maybe that's why?

While I still don't have a dedicated HTPC, I have occasionally hooked up a Ivy Bridge laptop to my HDTV. I have to admit that noise was never a problem. I could not hear the laptop from a couple of feet away.

Yes, but the goal is, very often, not realistic. Silence for silence's sake is nice, but not necessary.

My HTPC has 3x 120mm fans and an Intel CPU cooler w/fan... about 15' from where I sit. With the fans turned down with the case fan controller we can't hear it running... at all. Case choice has some to do with it, as well.

Like Mindless mentioned... I'm not trying to thread crap, either, but I think the goal of uber silence is largely unnecessary and affects the selection of the best components that should be chosen for the intended role...

 

[crashtech]

The case he has considering is more than capable of dissipating the heat from a 35W CPU. To each their own, but I happen to think a PC with NO moving parts is a worthy goal, and when properly implemented, creates a rock solid piece of equipment that just sits there and does its job forever, much like an A/V receiver.

 

[Bobsy]

All valid points. What drove me to consider passive is the fact that my high-end stereo has an unbelievable SNR. There is no hissing at all coming from the speakers. You can "hear the silence" so to speak, it's that stricking. The noise floor is defined by the fridge in the kitchen or city sounds. That said, a quiet system with good fans would not be noisier than the fridge from my listening position.

If the passive solution was more expensive, I would definitely go for the cheaper actively cooled alternative. The thing is, I save $60 on the case, but must purchase $70 of extra cooling components (Noctua NH-9i + NF-R8 PWM). Price is thus out of the equation. Size is the same, so also out. Weight is also the same: the passive case weighs 100 grams more, but the active case will get the CPU cooler so might end up weighing more. I am grasping at straws trying to decide on the damn case. I have three selection variables left:
1. Durability: active cooling wins.
2. Availability: the case I want for active cooling is currently unavailable but will be in stock soon. I could always pick the one with the ODD slot, which is available now.
3. Noise: If I use the aforementioned fans with the motherboard fan control software, would that be a good implementation?

Thanks.

 

[crashtech]

Why do you think active cooling win on durability?

 

[Bobsy]

I guess it's a supposition. I have the impression that the air inside a passively-cooled the case will be warmer. I also have the impression that components such as the SSD, motherboard, and RAM might have a reduced lifespan in a higher temp. Perhaps the impact on longevity is nil below a certain threshold.

 

[Bobsy]

mindless1 did not want this discussion to turn into a big debate over passive/active cooling and that's fine. Before everyone runs away from here, could I get some guidance on active cooling:
1. How good is my selection of the Noctua NH-9i + Noctua NF-R8 PWM?
2. Would I install the case fan for intake or exhaust? Perhaps I need to run T° tests at load?
3. Do I need to add any special air filter (the case has none)?

 

[mindless1]

Why do you think active cooling win on durability?

Because all else being equal, it always does unless the system were operating at sub-zero temperatures where it needed to stay warmer. Take a passive system with each component running at the respective temperatures they reach. Certain components are very sensitive to that heat and their lifespan is directly effected by it even if the temperature does not reach any particular critical threshold, although there comes a point where the temperature is high enough that the lifespan of the system is reduced below the expected or viable use period based on its performance.

Now add a fan to that same formerly passive system. All component temperatures will go down. The hotter components will be cooled more than the cooler ones since there is a higher temperature differential, but it's a cascade effect since the case air temperature is significantly lower as well.

You may get a decent passively cooled system to run for 4 or more years if you spend enough time and money. A decent actively cooled system with the same attention to detail is expected to run over 10 years. Ask me about my 24/7 operation, 15 year old Celeron 500MHz fileserver...

Note that I started out writing "all else being equal". Using a fan(s) is definitely not a substitute for a high quality PSU, motherboard, etc, with good heatsinking where it is needed. They all work together to make for the best rock solid, long term operation.