How you play the game - Salary negotiation

[E equals MC2]

Been doing some research here and these are what I've gathered from you ATOTers:

1. Never reveal your salary requirement / previous salary first. Doing this is a lose-lose situation. You'll either a) exceed their range and rule yourself out for considering or b) under their range and they'll offer just that, losing any potential $$ you could have made.

2. There's no way an employer can find out how much you made in a previous job (you don't have to provide, neither will your prev. company). So it's okay to inflate or lie about your previous salary in order to gain leverage.

Now I have a big problem with 2. Sure you can stick with 1. You're doing nothing wrong but omitting info. But if you do stick with 2. and LIE, they can ask for proof. From that case, you're royally fucked if you can't back up what you say. If you refuse to provide proof, then they'll take you as a joke.

So 1. is better than 2. Any thoughts?

 

[SpunkyJones]

I'm not much for playing games, I keep it simple, I know what I want to make and tell them. End of story.

 

[E equals MC2]

Originally posted by: SpunkyJones
I'm not much for playing games, I keep it simple, I know what I want to make and tell them. End of story.

It may be simple on your end, then you're subject to the consequences of 1.

 

[Chronoshock]

Most companies know the range they want to offer for a given position based on industry averages and their own company policies, especially for entry-level positions (which from what I remember of your previous threads, this will be). Look up the industry average yourself and ask for whatever percentile you feel you're worth. As for listing salaries from previous jobs, no they won't check it, but they will know what it should be approximately. If you want to bump it up by 5% that's probably fine, but don't go for a ridiculous increase

 

[Reckoner]

Depends on your credentials really. If you're fresh out of school, you usually have little to no leverage, since there's a line of people waiting to take the job at the level of pay offered. If you have years of experience, then you can "sell yourself" to them, possibly, at a higher rate. But there's so many variables involved that there's no clear-cut method. More often than not, it's a game which is better not played imo.

 

[SpunkyJones]

Originally posted by: E equals MC2

Originally posted by: SpunkyJones
I'm not much for playing games, I keep it simple, I know what I want to make and tell them. End of story.

It may be simple on your end, then you're subject to the consequences of 1.

Consequences of 1 don't concern me. If I exceed what their willing to pay, I don't want to work there anyway. If I under value, thats ok too, as long as I get the number that I want. Maximizing my pay isn't the only requirement I have for taking a job. Plus the number I'm asking for is in what I consider a comfortable range, so as long as I'm happy, I'm not concerned with the consequences from your scenario.

That being said, don't confuse me with a tree hugging hippie who shuns materialistic goods, I like new toys as much as the next guy. 🙂

Edited for horrible grammer. Mom would be disappointed.

 

[GasX]

Know what you are worth and expect it.

 

[Eeezee]

Originally posted by: E equals MC2

Originally posted by: SpunkyJones
I'm not much for playing games, I keep it simple, I know what I want to make and tell them. End of story.

It may be simple on your end, then you're subject to the consequences of 1.

Having gone through a few different jobs, I can tell you that I've never had to face the consequences of 1 and have always gotten a pay increase from my previous job. I went from Sears -> student IT and told them clearly what my Sears salary was and they practically doubled it. I went from IT -> a grading job and got a 50% increase in salary. I went from grading -> a TA job and my salary has doubled again. None of these jobs have specific salary requirements, either (not all TAs/graders make the same here, and they really want to offer as little as possible - regardless, I told them what my grader salary was and they doubled it anyway).

 

[E equals MC2]

Originally posted by: Chronoshock
Most companies know the range they want to offer for a given position based on industry averages and their own company policies, especially for entry-level positions (which from what I remember of your previous threads, this will be). Look up the industry average yourself and ask for whatever percentile you feel you're worth. As for listing salaries from previous jobs, no they won't check it, but they will know what it should be approximately. If you want to bump it up by 5% that's probably fine, but don't go for a ridiculous increase

My points assume above. Of course companies aren't gonna give you a position with $$$ out of their range. It's about achieving the higher end of the range than low.

I know. you can get away with more than 5% since titles and positions barely mean anything anymore in the relative world of mgmt/biz (not technical fields).

But again that's assuming you take the path 2. I think it's better to take path 1, omit your info and just strive to get the higher end of what your company is willing to give you.

 

[E equals MC2]

Originally posted by: Eeezee

Originally posted by: E equals MC2

Originally posted by: SpunkyJones
I'm not much for playing games, I keep it simple, I know what I want to make and tell them. End of story.

It may be simple on your end, then you're subject to the consequences of 1.

Having gone through a few different jobs, I can tell you that I've never had to face the consequences of 1 and have always gotten a pay increase from my previous job. I went from Sears -> student IT and told them clearly what my Sears salary was and they practically doubled it. I went from IT -> a grading job and got a 50% increase in salary. I went from grading -> a TA job and my salary has doubled again. None of these jobs have specific salary requirements, either (not all TAs/graders make the same here, and they really want to offer as little as possible - regardless, I told them what my grader salary was and they doubled it anyway).

Thanks. Few points:

1. Of course you will always get a pay increase from previous jobs. That's the whole point of getting a new job. If you're there, you obvious look it because it's more $$. Again, it's more about getting the best of their range.

 

[Svnla]

Don't ever give out the exact number. If you have to, give them a range...from x to y..plus benefits and open to negotiate.

 

[Gibson486]

you can't always go with option 1. Some employers will want atleast a range.

Also, for new grads, its much harder. Salary.com is geared towards people with atleast a years experience. What you have to do in this case is put yourself in the lower precentile. Lots do not want to do it, but if you use teh median on salary.com as your bible, you will get burned.

 

[rasczak]

I got lucky with my company. It's a great company to work for to boot. I gave them my range (which minimum started at $10,000 more than what my previous (main benefitted) job salary was, and my max was $18,000. Still a little more would have been nice considering i work in san diego, but what was nice is I got the max i requested. needless to say i was pretty stoked. only trouble was that I was working two full time jobs and taking this one job was a huge income decrease for our family. but in the end it's working out. but with all of the potential here as this company, i'm excited about being here. (they pay for your education as well as have a matching retirement plan plus stock options, never had those before)

 

[pmoa]

Originally posted by: E equals MC2

Originally posted by: SpunkyJones
I'm not much for playing games, I keep it simple, I know what I want to make and tell them. End of story.

It may be simple on your end, then you're subject to the consequences of 1.

You should know what you want to make...if you dont then you dont deserve it

 

[E equals MC2]

Originally posted by: pmoa

Originally posted by: E equals MC2

Originally posted by: SpunkyJones
I'm not much for playing games, I keep it simple, I know what I want to make and tell them. End of story.

It may be simple on your end, then you're subject to the consequences of 1.

You should know what you want to make...if you dont then you dont deserve it

That's a terrible advice.

 

[E equals MC2]

any further inputs please?

 

[D1gger]

Whenever I am hiring someone, I have set a range of value to me before I even start interviewing. That is, I have decided what the position is worth to my company. I do look at what the industry in general is paying, but the final decision is up to me regarding what it is worth to my organization. If you ask for too much, it just isn't going to happen, and I will keep looking.

Oh and if you think your previous company won't tell me what they have been paying you, you are mistaken. Almost all previous managers will whisper in the phone what they had been paying.

 

[rasczak]

Originally posted by: D1gger
Whenever I am hiring someone, I have set a range of value to me before I even start interviewing. That is, I have decided what the position is worth to my company. I do look at what the industry in general is paying, but the final decision is up to me regarding what it is worth to my organization. If you ask for too much, it just isn't going to happen, and I will keep looking.

Oh and if you think your previous company won't tell me what they have been paying you, you are mistaken. Almost all previous managers will whisper in the phone what they had been paying.

want to move to canada. got any openings? 😱 hehe, j/k

 

[E equals MC2]

Originally posted by: D1gger
Whenever I am hiring someone, I have set a range of value to me before I even start interviewing. That is, I have decided what the position is worth to my company. I do look at what the industry in general is paying, but the final decision is up to me regarding what it is worth to my organization. If you ask for too much, it just isn't going to happen, and I will keep looking.

Oh and if you think your previous company won't tell me what they have been paying you, you are mistaken. Almost all previous managers will whisper in the phone what they had been paying.

Who on earth puts down their current manager as a reference while trying to get another job somewhere else?

 

[spidey07]

I always look at like sales. I'm selling something. So first get them "hooked" on hiring you. For many positions they could have been looking for somebody for months and haven't found what they want yet so once they seem interested, then you can talk money. Basically once they have the hook in their mouth you set it, then drive up the price. 10-20K more for a company is nothing.

Always give let them give a number first. If it is really low you can say "c'mon bob, I was making that 8 years ago..."

It will throw them off and make them feel like they've offended you - that's good, that's what you want. Plus it's human nature to want to pay more for something - in peoples mind more expensive = better. So use this to your advantage. I read the book "how to make 1000 dollars a minute" and it has proven to be very useful.

-edit-
I never tell them what I'm making, ever. That is personal information and none of their business.

 

[child of wonder]

My current position was first offered to me 3 months before I finally accepted it. The max pay range of this position was $10,000 less than I was previously making. I told them I couldn't accept something that low. Then they raised it by $5,000 but were still $5,000 short. I politely declined and said it was still too low. We didn't speak again for 2 months when I saw that the position was still open. I emailed them again and said I saw the position was still open and asked if they wanted to re-enter negotiations. Now I make $1,000 more than I did before plus a $2,000 signing bonus. Not much, but they came up quite a bit from their previous offer to get me in the door.

I can see in whatever job I take next that there will be more negotiation involved. I'm hoping to have my VMWare cert later this year and I'll have 3 years experience in my field plus 6 years consulting experience. My wife and I are thinking of moving to a larger city with more opportunities.

 

[D1gger]

Originally posted by: rasczak

Originally posted by: D1gger
Whenever I am hiring someone, I have set a range of value to me before I even start interviewing. That is, I have decided what the position is worth to my company. I do look at what the industry in general is paying, but the final decision is up to me regarding what it is worth to my organization. If you ask for too much, it just isn't going to happen, and I will keep looking.

Oh and if you think your previous company won't tell me what they have been paying you, you are mistaken. Almost all previous managers will whisper in the phone what they had been paying.

want to move to canada. got any openings? 😱 hehe, j/k

I just hired someone who moved here from Oregon, so who knows. Just send me your resume and you could be next! 😉

 

[theeedude]

If they ask for your desired salary, give them a number that you will make you stop searching elsewhere and join them, but say you will entertain all offers. It's kind of like selling a car. It's desired price or best offer. Just tell them that.
If they ask for what you currently make, in my opinion the gloves come off. IMO, they have no business asking you that private info, so feel free to tell them whatever the hell you want. You can say you don't feel comfortable disclosing this info, or you can tell them a number that you should be making based on salary surveys, or your real salary if you want to, but keep in mind, that may cap what they will offer you.
In my personal experience, they generally add 10% over what you make when making an offer, so 90% of your desired range is a good response to that question.

 

[E equals MC2]

Originally posted by: senseamp
If they ask for your desired salary, give them a number that you will make you stop searching elsewhere and join them, but say you will entertain all offers. It's kind of like selling a car. It's desired price or best offer. Just tell them that.
If they ask for what you currently make, in my opinion the gloves come off. IMO, they have no business asking you that private info, so feel free to tell them whatever the hell you want. You can say you don't feel comfortable disclosing this info, or you can tell them a number that you should be making based on salary surveys, or your real salary if you want to, but keep in mind, that may cap what they will offer you.
In my personal experience, they generally add 10% over what you make when making an offer, so 90% of your desired range is a good response to that question.

good shit. very very good shit. i just read that to my gf as well (who's also looking for a job) and we had a very good discussion agreeing with your points.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: E equals MC2
Been doing some research here and these are what I've gathered from you ATOTers:

1. Never reveal your salary requirement / previous salary first. Doing this is a lose-lose situation. You'll either a) exceed their range and rule yourself out for considering or b) under their range and they'll offer just that, losing any potential $$ you could have made.

2. There's no way an employer can find out how much you made in a previous job (you don't have to provide, neither will your prev. company). So it's okay to inflate or lie about your previous salary in order to gain leverage.

Now I have a big problem with 2. Sure you can stick with 1. You're doing nothing wrong but omitting info. But if you do stick with 2. and LIE, they can ask for proof. From that case, you're royally fucked if you can't back up what you say. If you refuse to provide proof, then they'll take you as a joke.

So 1. is better than 2. Any thoughts?

unfortunately many companies require you to list your previous salaries (it's BS IMHO).