How would you classify Europe (as a whole) politically?

[2Xtreme21]

This is kind of inspired by a documentary I watched the other day by Tom Friedman (NYTimes Editorial Writer) where he went to Europe in Feb. of 2005 and interviewed a broad range of people about US Foreign Policy.

Now Friedman is a "soft Democrat," as stated by one of my friends, and generally supported the war in Iraq and the toppling of Saddam's regime. He doesn't like how it's turned out though, but he still thinks we're doing the right thing.

Anway, enough with the background, he spent most of his time in France interviewing people of different age groups. He interviewed some French university students and their views were rather radical in comparison to even US Democrats: "George Bush is a terrorist." "George Bush is the enemy of all that is right." etc. etc.

And as he travelled around, other viewpoints were of that same nature. Even when he toured the United Kingdom, rallies of anti-war protestors were frequently held expressing a huge view of how badly they want their country to pull out.

Though the majority of the documentary was on his interviewing of European citizens concerning US policy, a lot of it was him reminding French citizens about how the US's actions saved them from complete dominance by Hitler. In response, France is still grateful, though they believe Bush is using that same school of thought in a twisted way in order to get what he wants in the Middle East.

And with Europe as the number one player in the World Market today (EU has something like 60% of all economic transactions, and the EU's GDP is something well over that of the United States'), the US, according to French people, should be more careful about its policies that affect them [Europe] in the world.

Now there's a lot of speculation that the only reason that a majority of Europe is strictly anti-war and staunchly against Bush is the fact that Europe, in the last 100 years, has seen so much fighting, bloodshed, and destruction that ULTIMATELY has been deemed pointless (mostly from the side which started the wars). They, obviously, would love to handle everything totally through diplomacy, while America is more inclined to use the military which we've spent billions of dollars enhancing year after year. Europe, in turn, has a smaller military (relying on the US for military aid) and extremely strong social welfare programs. Naturally, their government and society is going to be more passive.

Friedman ended the documentary with "Europe is the world's biggest blue state." Agree?

 

[sandorski]

Sounds about right.

 

[Riprorin]

This describes Europe well:

From Publishers Weekly
Paris's modernist La Grande Arche de la Défense and the Gothic Cathedral of Notre-Dame serve as metaphors for papal biographer Weigel's (Witness to Hope) examination of what has happened to Europe in the last several decades and its significance to Americans. Weigel, an American Catholic theologian who has lived and worked on the continent, defines the "Europe problem" as the sharp divergence of European views on democracy, the world and politics from those held by Americans like himself. For him, La Grande Arche ("The Cube") symbolizes the new Europe, retreating from democracy, en route to depoliticization, enamored of international organizations and intellectually Christophobic. Notre-Dame, which guidebooks claim would fit inside the Cube, embodies Europe's Christian history, now strangely absent from the constitution of the European Union. Weigel traces the "Europe problem" to the 19th-century rise of "atheistic humanism" and "the related triumph of secularization, or de-Christianization, in western Europe." He urges Americans to pay attention to what has happened there because it has implications for the future of democracy in the United States and throughout the world. In developing his thesis, Weigel draws on diverse sources, including the Polish-born Pope John Paul II, who has been keenly interested in Europe's democracies. Readers given to pondering European affairs will find much to pique thoughtful discussion. (Apr.)
Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

The Cube and the Cathedral: Europe, America, and Politics Without God

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21

Now there's a lot of speculation that the only reason that a majority of Europe is strictly anti-war and staunchly against Bush is the fact that Europe, in the last 100 years, has seen so much fighting, bloodshed, and destruction that ULTIMATELY has been deemed pointless (mostly from the side which started the wars).

That's such a generic comment. They still seem to participate in a lot of pointless fighting and bring destruction, death, genocides, etc. all over the world. They only had a genocide within Europe a decade or so ago and actively participated in another genocide in another continent ten years ago.

They, obviously, would love to handle everything totally through diplomacy, while America is more inclined to use the military which we've spent billions of dollars enhancing year after year. Europe, in turn, has a smaller military (relying on the US for military aid) and extremely strong social welfare programs. Naturally, their government and society is going to be more passive.

Friedman ended the documentary with "Europe is the world's biggest blue state." Agree?

I disagree. A big blue state would not support supremacists, far-right political parties, concept of superior bloodlines, dismantle multiculturalism, eradicate "undesirables," etc. Friedman obviously didn't do a good job in his documentary if that's his conclusion.

 

[Infohawk]

Friedman is a jackass, as evidenced by his support for the Iraq war. Does he even qualify as a soft Democrat? I don't think so. He usually takes the conservative view. Did somebody remind Friedman where the Statue of Liberty comes from? Who helped us in the Revolutionary War? Anyway, he gets paid for making sweeping generalizations and turning things into a cartoon.

I don't think there's much point in trying to label Europe as a whole. Europe is similar to the US minus religious fanatics and extreme rural types. They are secular and they are Westerners.

 

[2Xtreme21]

Originally posted by: Infohawk
Did somebody remind Friedman where the Statue of Liberty comes from? Who helped us in the Revolutionary War?

Definitely a good point. So is Europe's disgust of America warranted?

 

[Forsythe]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21

Now there's a lot of speculation that the only reason that a majority of Europe is strictly anti-war and staunchly against Bush is the fact that Europe, in the last 100 years, has seen so much fighting, bloodshed, and destruction that ULTIMATELY has been deemed pointless (mostly from the side which started the wars).

That's such a generic comment. They still seem to participate in a lot of pointless fighting and bring destruction, death, genocides, etc. all over the world. They only had a genocide within Europe a decade or so ago and actively participated in another genocide in another continent ten years ago.

They, obviously, would love to handle everything totally through diplomacy, while America is more inclined to use the military which we've spent billions of dollars enhancing year after year. Europe, in turn, has a smaller military (relying on the US for military aid) and extremely strong social welfare programs. Naturally, their government and society is going to be more passive.

Friedman ended the documentary with "Europe is the world's biggest blue state." Agree?

I disagree. A big blue state would not support supremacists, far-right political parties, concept of superior bloodlines, dismantle multiculturalism, eradicate "undesirables," etc. Friedman obviously didn't do a good job in his documentary if that's his conclusion.

Blue state? It's democracy. Far right parties are allowed to live in a democracy.
That eradicating undesireables is just you being a tad nutters.
Besides, they're a small part of a very big society. The only reason they get the press is because they're very right wing and anti-immigration. They ofcourse naturally exist mostly of old people.

And yes, the balkans had a genocide, but that was just a cracy man, near dictator.
And no france did not participate in any eradication processes.

 

[Forsythe]

Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21

Originally posted by: Infohawk
Did somebody remind Friedman where the Statue of Liberty comes from? Who helped us in the Revolutionary War?

Definitely a good point. So is Europe's disgust of America warranted?

It's the disgust you would have of an older brother that you once liked but now hate. So i would say yes.

Generally a countries psychology is the same as the psychology in a classroom.

 

[Forsythe]

Oh, btw.

The major differences between europe and america are:

1. Feeling of superiority, and being the best is frowned upon in europe (denmark), in america it's encouraged.

2. Very right wing politics in america. Our rightmost party in denmark are liberals.

3. General view on peace, most europeans seem to prefer the Ghandi way to the american gung-ho way.

Note:
As i just tried to read this it stood clear to me that this was very heavily biased. Take what i say, and eat it with a pinch of salt.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Forsythe

Originally posted by: CanOWorms

Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21

Now there's a lot of speculation that the only reason that a majority of Europe is strictly anti-war and staunchly against Bush is the fact that Europe, in the last 100 years, has seen so much fighting, bloodshed, and destruction that ULTIMATELY has been deemed pointless (mostly from the side which started the wars).

That's such a generic comment. They still seem to participate in a lot of pointless fighting and bring destruction, death, genocides, etc. all over the world. They only had a genocide within Europe a decade or so ago and actively participated in another genocide in another continent ten years ago.

They, obviously, would love to handle everything totally through diplomacy, while America is more inclined to use the military which we've spent billions of dollars enhancing year after year. Europe, in turn, has a smaller military (relying on the US for military aid) and extremely strong social welfare programs. Naturally, their government and society is going to be more passive.

Friedman ended the documentary with "Europe is the world's biggest blue state." Agree?

I disagree. A big blue state would not support supremacists, far-right political parties, concept of superior bloodlines, dismantle multiculturalism, eradicate "undesirables," etc. Friedman obviously didn't do a good job in his documentary if that's his conclusion.

Blue state? It's democracy. Far right parties are allowed to live in a democracy.

Yes, Europe as a whole is usually classified as a democracy. Of course far right parties are allowed to live in some democracies. I say some because many European countries are dismantling democracy by banning rival political parties (see Belgium, Germany).

That eradicating undesireables is just you being a tad nutters.

You just automatically dismissing it is a tad nutters!

Besides, they're a small part of a very big society. The only reason they get the press is because they're very right wing and anti-immigration. They ofcourse naturally exist mostly of old people.

Nope, many are mostly young people, and they're not a small part of a big society in many countries. They are the dominant group in many countries. I don't see how you can classify those countries as true "Blue states" when they are under the claws of far-right lunatic supremacists.

And yes, the balkans had a genocide, but that was just a cracy man, near dictator.
And no france did not participate in any eradication processes.

The UN tribunal, diplomats, journalists, survivors, etc. disagree with you over France's involvement in the genocide.

 

[yllus]

Now there's a lot of speculation that the only reason that a majority of Europe is strictly anti-war and staunchly against Bush is the fact that Europe, in the last 100 years, has seen so much fighting, bloodshed, and destruction that ULTIMATELY has been deemed pointless (mostly from the side which started the wars). They, obviously, would love to handle everything totally through diplomacy, while America is more inclined to use the military which we've spent billions of dollars enhancing year after year. Europe, in turn, has a smaller military (relying on the US for military aid) and extremely strong social welfare programs. Naturally, their government and society is going to be more passive.

That sounds pretty accurate to me. With the scarring of wars past right in front of them and many nations rebuilt from just 60-odd years ago, they're naturally going to want to veer away from the same old mess we call war.

You can take this either of two ways, depending mostly on the circumstances. Is a continued dialogue the best mode of action, or are you just giving in to expedience and appeasement? Is striking out for war the best mode of action, or are you again just giving in to expedience through conquest? When a private citizen can circumnavigate the world in 48 hours, appeasement seems like an even worse option than ever before - but neither can we jump out of our armchairs to launch strikes at the smallest disagreement.

Overall I think the U.S. has a very healthy attitude in this regard. Deal with the Husseins of the world in the only way they'll earnestly respond whenever it's pragmatically possible. Makes the now more uncomfortable, but the later so much better for everyone involved.

Friedman ended the documentary with "Europe is the world's biggest blue state." Agree?

I'd agree on the basis of the last U.S. election we saw - all blue and red states were hardly united in voting one way or another. It's the same the world over.

 

[0roo0roo]

they live in their little bubble of peace under the umbrella of us military might. they've united europe sure. but they are deluded thinking what works for europe works everywhere else.

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
they live in their little bubble of peace under the umbrella of us military might. they've united europe sure. but they are deluded thinking what works for europe works everywhere else.

I was hoping the EU constitution would pass and unite them into an equal superpower with the U.S. The speed at which many would drop the overly dovish behaviour would be rather amusing. Being #1 always paints a big target on your back.

 

[Infohawk]

I hate the personnifications going on here. These are not two people mad at each other. These are complex organizations we are talking about. Too much simplification.

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
but they are deluded thinking what works for europe works everywhere else.

What do you know about it? Do you have any evidence it doesn't?

 

[Forsythe]

Yes, Europe as a whole is usually classified as a democracy. Of course far right parties are allowed to live in some democracies. I say some because many European countries are dismantling democracy by banning rival political parties (see Belgium, Germany).

Lets get this straight. European countries, aswell as america, have a separation of the lawgivers and judges. These parties both broke the law that exists in most countries, namely the law against rascism (which indeed does exist in denmark aswell, don't know about the US), which led them to be banned. It had nothing to do with democracy or lack of the same.

Whether or not those law are democratic i cannot say. But in denmark i know it's been there since 1973 or something.

You just automatically dismissing it is a tad nutters!

Then show me some proof. Just saying it happened doesn't make it true. It's not a fairytale world you know.

Nope, many are mostly young people, and they're not a small part of a big society in many countries. They are the dominant group in many countries. I don't see how you can classify those countries as true "Blue states" when they are under the claws of far-right lunatic supremacists.

Don't be stupid, it's old people that never get out and read statistics. It's a well known fact, atleast here in europe. Old people are stubborn and stupid, end of story.
Where are they dominant groups? They aren't.

The UN tribunal, diplomats, journalists, survivors, etc. disagree with you over France's involvement in the genocide.

Proof?

 

[Forsythe]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
they live in their little bubble of peace under the umbrella of us military might. they've united europe sure. but they are deluded thinking what works for europe works everywhere else.

Ofcourse it will, we are all humans. Yes, even muslims.

 

[Forsythe]

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
they live in their little bubble of peace under the umbrella of us military might. they've united europe sure. but they are deluded thinking what works for europe works everywhere else.

I was hoping the EU constitution would pass and unite them into an equal superpower with the U.S. The speed at which many would drop the overly dovish behaviour would be rather amusing. Being #1 always paints a big target on your back.

What? Europe will never become a superpower, it's 25 different countries, not one country.

Oh, and if you don't want to be a target stop pissing people off then...

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: Forsythe

Yes, Europe as a whole is usually classified as a democracy. Of course far right parties are allowed to live in some democracies. I say some because many European countries are dismantling democracy by banning rival political parties (see Belgium, Germany).

Lets get this straight. European countries, aswell as america, have a separation of the lawgivers and judges. These parties both broke the law that exists in most countries, namely the law against rascism (which indeed does exist in denmark aswell, don't know about the US), which led them to be banned. It had nothing to do with democracy or lack of the same.

Whether or not those law are democratic i cannot say. But in denmark i know it's been there since 1973 or something.

Democracy is being dismantled throughout Europe. I'm not saying that they're not democratic right now. It's just slowly being dismantled. It's just an opinion anyways. You can say the same thing about US, Jamaica, whatever.

You just automatically dismissing it is a tad nutters!

Then show me some proof. Just saying it happened doesn't make it true. It's not a fairytale world you know.

For some reason I think that you would dismiss anything that is against your beliefs.

Nope, many are mostly young people, and they're not a small part of a big society in many countries. They are the dominant group in many countries. I don't see how you can classify those countries as true "Blue states" when they are under the claws of far-right lunatic supremacists.

Don't be stupid, it's old people that never get out and read statistics. It's a well known fact, atleast here in europe. Old people are stubborn and stupid, end of story.

Sorry, but surveys show different statistics. Some show that older people are responsible for most of it, others show young people. I believe that it has infected all parts of society.

Where are they dominant groups? They aren't.

Switzerland, Denmark, Slovenia, Italy, etc.

The UN tribunal, diplomats, journalists, survivors, etc. disagree with you over France's involvement in the genocide.

Proof?

Just do a search for on the forum. I've posted a lot on France's orchestration of the Rwanda genocide.

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: Forsythe

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
they live in their little bubble of peace under the umbrella of us military might. they've united europe sure. but they are deluded thinking what works for europe works everywhere else.

I was hoping the EU constitution would pass and unite them into an equal superpower with the U.S. The speed at which many would drop the overly dovish behaviour would be rather amusing. Being #1 always paints a big target on your back.

What? Europe will never become a superpower, it's 25 different countries, not one country.

Oh, and if you don't want to be a target stop pissing people off then...

Europe, or parts of, will band together sooner or later for economic reasons. From shared economic stakes spawn shared political stakes, and so on.

If the U.S. was a 'target' for terrorists because "the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors and turning its bases in the peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples", well then, I'm sure those people will get along just splendidly with you fine Europeans.

Hopefully they'll have short memories, though...white Europeans haven't been the kindest to Muslims in the past.

 

[Forsythe]

Y
s, Europe as a whole is usually classified as a democracy. Of course far right parties are allowed to live in some democracies. I say some because many European countries are dismantling democracy by banning rival political parties (see Belgium, Germany).

Lets get this straight. European countries, aswell as america, have a separation of the lawgivers and judges. These parties both broke the law that exists in most countries, namely the law against rascism (which indeed does exist in denmark aswell, don't know about the US), which led them to be banned. It had nothing to do with democracy or lack of the same.

Whether or not those law are democratic i cannot say. But in denmark i know it's been there since 1973 or something.

Democracy is being dismantled throughout Europe. I'm not saying that they're not democratic right now. It's just slowly being dismantled. It's just an opinion anyways. You can say the same thing about US, Jamaica, whatever.

Ok, i can respect an opinion, but i've seen no proof for any of that.

You just automatically dismissing it is a tad nutters!

Then show me some proof. Just saying it happened doesn't make it true. It's not a fairytale world you know.

For some reason I think that you would dismiss anything that is against your beliefs.

Well you don't know me very well then. The idea you brought forward of european governments eradicating "undesireables" (the word you continue using) is simply plain nuts.

Nope, many are mostly young people, and they're not a small part of a big society in many countries. They are the dominant group in many countries. I don't see how you can classify those countries as true "Blue states" when they are under the claws of far-right lunatic supremacists.

Don't be stupid, it's old people that never get out and read statistics. It's a well known fact, atleast here in europe. Old people are stubborn and stupid, end of story.

Sorry, but surveys show different statistics. Some show that older people are responsible for most of it, others show young people. I believe that it has infected all parts of society.

I can't believe that we're even discussing this. It's very obvious that old out-of-touch people are the major voters of for example Le Pen, Jürg Haider and Pia Kjærsgård (from denmark), just look at the party rallyings. The only young people there are his bodyguards.
And indeed this would be what common sense would show.

Where are they dominant groups? They aren't.

Switzerland, Denmark, Slovenia, Italy, etc.

IN DENMARK??!
Well, that's certainly news. And ofcourse it's not true. Liberals (uhm, danish conservatives) aren't extreme right wing.

The UN tribunal, diplomats, journalists, survivors, etc. disagree with you over France's involvement in the genocide.

Proof?

Just do a search for on the forum. I've posted a lot on France's orchestration of the Rwanda genocide.

Yes i've seen one or two doubtsome posts, but nothing i can comment on without reading them again, and tbh i cba searching for those posts (as i'm sure they're bulls*hit).

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: yllus
Europe, or parts of, will band together sooner or later for economic reasons. From shared economic stakes spawn shared political stakes, and so on.

What a keen observation. :roll: What are you posting from 1945? This has already happened.

 

[0roo0roo]

well not exactly. you are no where near shedding national governments and national identities to submit completely to the idea of a super state.

 

[Forsythe]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
well not exactly. you are no where near shedding national governments and national identities to submit completely to the idea of a super state.

The whole idea of europe has nothing to do with a super-state. It's a economical and sensible relationship where people do not have to heed the stupid idea of borders, where major powers work together economically, and where conflicts are solved through words not combat. To me europe represents the coming world order, as soon as it gets past its teething problems. And America wouldn't be prevented in joining the EU. But i think you'd be too anal to do anything like that.

 

[Steeplerot]

"(Some french students) were rather radical in comparison to even US Democrats: "George Bush is a terrorist." "George Bush is the enemy of all that is right." etc. etc."


don't get out much does he? people here say the same thing. It's true too.

They sell
bush: Wanted for terrorism and crimes against humanity with him imposed over a pic of OBL shirts in the streets in america in just about every major city I have travelled through in the past month here in america.

ever looked at signs on the protests that get into 10's to 100's of thousands?
they say the same thing, I guess foxnews and "mainstream" media do not touch it but it
is and has been part of the mindest of america for going on 5 years now.

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: yllus
Europe, or parts of, will band together sooner or later for economic reasons. From shared economic stakes spawn shared political stakes, and so on.

What a keen observation. :roll: What are you posting from 1945? This has already happened.

If you had some working braincells in your head, you just might figure out what I meant.

Originally posted by: Forsythe

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
well not exactly. you are no where near shedding national governments and national identities to submit completely to the idea of a super state.

The whole idea of europe has nothing to do with a super-state. It's a economical and sensible relationship where people do not have to heed the stupid idea of borders, where major powers work together economically, and where conflicts are solved through words not combat. To me europe represents the coming world order, as soon as it gets past its teething problems. And America wouldn't be prevented in joining the EU. But i think you'd be too anal to do anything like that.

The most economically sensible relationship the nations of Europe could have is one with a streamlined systems: Identical immigration requirements, financial regulations, education accreditations. If you network the nations enough to create really tight financial bindings, you will end up sharing a single defense policy to protect those shared interests; it's a natural enough step that most every large nation in the world once took.

It's only been some sixty years since war ended in Europe, it's a little early to be talking superstates. But do you really think the people in Brussels aren't thinking ahead? The smart thing to do is to leverage a whole mass of advantages against the rest of the world. Running counter to that is lingering bias and resentment from country to country in Europe, and a feeling that a loss of culture would result from Europe-wide integration. But as we well know, in this enlightened age, economic reasonabilities usually trump social concerns.

There's little point in America joining the EU, but that doesn't mean the two would emerge as enemies; there's much more to lose from war and strife than there is to gain. That doesn't mean that all conflicts will be "solved through words not combat". Talk about misunderstandings and noncommunication until you're blue in the face, but some people simply can't be reasoned with because their ideologies differ so greatly from our own. With a world that continues to make gains in overall literacy and diversity, one day we probably will not have that problem any longer. Until then...