How would Universal income work?

[TeeJay1952]

Don't think of it as Universal Income but rather Outsourcing Welfare.

 

[agent00f]

I'm not sure the most murderous society ever to grace the world was the bastion of progress, also. It did was so unsustainable that it collapsed under it's own weight. The people did the things because they did not want to go to the gulogs for disrespecting the leaders.

No, I'm pretty sure soviet scientists/etc desired glory just as much as their western counterparts, and neither achieve what they do because it pays well.

 

[Craig234]

I'm not sure the most murderous society ever to grace the world was the bastion of progress, also. It did was so unsustainable that it collapsed under it's own weight. The people did the things because they did not want to go to the gulogs for disrespecting the leaders.

That's just wrong.

First, it's wrong in painting a picture of 'their country was inherently murderous, unlike our side'.

One problem with that is every leading nation has been horribly murderous. The USSR. The US. Rome. England. China. Every one has killed millions.

Another is that it pretends the 'murderous' part has anything to do with the system necessarily. The large majority of the murders with the USSR were by one leader because of him, not the system - Stalin.

And as of the following leader, the country repudiated that history and took steps not to repeat it. Most of China's murders were from one bad leader, Mao, and they've taken steps to prevent a recurrence, such as adopting consensus government to prevent one tyrant.

Germany, also, has renounced their worst period and taken steps to avoid repeating them, still outlawing speech promoting that ideology.

Partly out of a national guilt, they accept huge numbers of modern refugees as acts of mercy - while the US does all it can and more to ban and deport them.

Those countries renounced those periods. How does the US compare, on renouncing native genocide? On renouncing our history of slavery and racial discrimination? Renouncing our killing millions in Vietnam? Iraq? Being a force behind the Iraq-Iran War? Overthrowing democracy, hundreds of wrongful cases of backing and causing wrongful killing around the world? Tyranny instead of Democracy in Iran since 1953 (Yes, the current religious government is a direct result of our installing the Shah)? Training death squads for Central America, giving them the lists of thousands of names of students, professors, labor leaders, civil rights lawyers to kidnap, torture and kill? How much have we renounced and apologized for any of this?

We're still having battles over removing monuments to the leaders of the pro-slavery movement to leave the US who killed more Americans than all other wars combined. That would be like Germany being unable to remove Nazi symbols because of popular opposition.

Funny how your own poop doesn't smell, isn't it, as you can get on a high horse to judge others, as wrong as many were?

Second is a great oversimplification of the economic issues. The truth is in the middle.

People don't act only out of money. Ask workers in Doctors without Borders. Ask the rare politician and staffer who pass up big bucks for public service (e.g., Robert McNamara was recently made the president of Ford Motors when he gave up wealth when asked to serve the public).

It is possible to go a long way on things other than money. And while money does incent some behavior and cause some productivity, it's also very destructive to our own society, vastly overpaying parasites who extract wealth on Wall Street while leaving us weak on things like child care.

Huge amounts of our wealth are not only wasted, but actively harmful - as trillions of our dollars go to hiring corrupt officials so we lose our democracy, who redirect trillions to the wealthy out of the public's needs like education and healthcare, who allow things like pollution for profit.

Far left economics have a history of poor results, but ours are as bad or worse in other ways we're only starting to see in some cases. Good economics are in the middle between them, with a limited role for money to incentivize behavior.

Economics closer to what we saw in our 'golden period' from the 1940's to 1970's when we saw such great growth in prosperity and technology, great increases in economic equality - until business became politically organized and took over our government since, as of Reagan.

The Soviets had severe economic problems. People wanted to flee communism generally. Yet they did some amazing things despite the poverty, and there's a reason many Russians incredibly preferred even the Stalinist era after the USSR ended.

FDR was right when he pointed the direction toward universal housing and healthcare, and limiting the highest incomes with a 100% tax above the equivalent of a few million dollars income - in important ways many of the poor in communist countries had more care than in the west.

Both systems have their problems, communism and Reaganism plutocracy we're well on the way to. FDR democracy would be better.

 

[ringtail]

It would NOT work.

Please go read ADAM SMITH.

Only left wing insane true obama believers would even entertain a thought that universal ANYTHING would work. It WON'T. Abilities, desires, capabilities, aspirations, awareness, intelligence, spread across the population in a DISTRIBUTION - whether standard normal Z or other mathematical form -

Whole lotta politicos (supposedly OUR delagets) who RIGHT NOW have hands on OUR power levers FOR US (ALAS!) were, in their youth, taught WALDEN II and the supposed Japanese (all inclusive mental brilliants merged with mental basket cases), which practical reality has AGAIN and AGAIN proved is CRAP!!! FAIL. I personally attended a seminar where all the Japanese educators stood up and LEFT when the lead speaker launced off abouty Walden II and the "Suppoed" Japanese idea of merging the brilliants with the retards handing in a trapese, unable to control bodily functions. THe AMERICAN LEFT keeps on trying to manifest Walden II.

Walden II AGAIN and AGAIN has IN REAL LIFE been P R O V E D wrong. You can buy Walden II anywhere and in your local neighborhood library....as I said, proved in real life after MANY trials TO BE RIDICULOUS crap crap LEFT WING CRAP.

 

[Craig234]

It would NOT work.

Please go read ADAM SMITH.

Only left wing insane true obama believers would even entertain a thought that universal ANYTHING would work. It WON'T. Abilities, desires, capabilities, aspirations, awareness, intelligence, spread across the population in a DISTRIBUTION - whether standard normal Z or other mathematical form -

Whole lotta politicos (supposedly OUR delagets) who RIGHT NOW have hands on OUR power levers FOR US (ALAS!) were, in their youth, taught WALDEN II and the supposed Japanese (all inclusive mental brilliants merged with mental basket cases), which practical reality has AGAIN and AGAIN proved is CRAP!!! FAIL. I personally attended a seminar where all the Japanese educators stood up and LEFT when the lead speaker launced off abouty Walden II and the "Suppoed" Japanese idea of merging the brilliants with the retards handing in a trapese, unable to control bodily functions. THe AMERICAN LEFT keeps on trying to manifest Walden II.

Walden II AGAIN and AGAIN has IN REAL LIFE been P R O V E D wrong. You can buy Walden II anywhere and in your local neighborhood library....as I said, proved in real life after MANY trials TO BE RIDICULOUS crap crap LEFT WING CRAP.

That's really not discussion - it's foaming and makes you look bad IMO.

I have read Adam Smith. He doesn't say what most people - especially right-wingers - think he does. And he doesn't address universal income as far as I'm aware - a topic that's quite different from his time.

A lot has changed. We're no longer an agrarian society based on unlimited land to farm. What hasn't changed is that people need a place to live and eat - at the same time that we have more and more automation and overpopulation and chronic unemployment.

The people who spout opposition to solutions such as universal income, besides the ignorant, are those who would have to give back a bit.

As for your post stylistically - the only reason for a mention of Obama - you use lower case, further showing the mindset, though I use lower case for trump as an intended disrespect - someone who is AGAINST universal income - is the sort of partisan name-dropping frothing.

It shows you really have no understanding of the problem, the solutions, or economics - and I'd say, morality.

 

[agent00f]

It would NOT work.

Please go read ADAM SMITH.

Only left wing insane true obama believers would even entertain a thought that universal ANYTHING would work. It WON'T. Abilities, desires, capabilities, aspirations, awareness, intelligence, spread across the population in a DISTRIBUTION - whether standard normal Z or other mathematical form -

Whole lotta politicos (supposedly OUR delagets) who RIGHT NOW have hands on OUR power levers FOR US (ALAS!) were, in their youth, taught WALDEN II and the supposed Japanese (all inclusive mental brilliants merged with mental basket cases), which practical reality has AGAIN and AGAIN proved is CRAP!!! FAIL. I personally attended a seminar where all the Japanese educators stood up and LEFT when the lead speaker launced off abouty Walden II and the "Suppoed" Japanese idea of merging the brilliants with the retards handing in a trapese, unable to control bodily functions. THe AMERICAN LEFT keeps on trying to manifest Walden II.

Walden II AGAIN and AGAIN has IN REAL LIFE been P R O V E D wrong. You can buy Walden II anywhere and in your local neighborhood library....as I said, proved in real life after MANY trials TO BE RIDICULOUS crap crap LEFT WING CRAP.

People who've read Smith would know that he wasn't a fan of people who represent his work as these sorts do.

 

[Craig234]

People who've read Smith would know that he wasn't a fan of people who represent his work as these sorts do.

Exactly.

It's sort as if they want to believe an ideology, so they just decide a big name like Adam Smith said what they want him to have said.

 

[agent00f]

Exactly.

It's sort as if they want to believe an ideology, so they just decide a big name like Adam Smith said what they want him to have said.

Smith hated rent/profit-seekers for giving capitalism a bad name. You know, the people who name-drop him the most.