Why do Angels and Demons have to be considered invisible or alien? Reality is very much like an onion, we only see the outer layer. Heck, with the naked eye we can only see less than 1% of the light spectrum. In time humans will have the vision (and not just with our eyes) and wisdom to see truth.
Actually, I very much hope there is intelligent life elsewhere in this universe and that we can communicate with them. Now THAT would be a cool theological discussion!
Actually, I very much hope there is intelligent life elsewhere in this universe and that we can communicate with them. Now THAT would be a cool theological discussion!
apoppin
Lifer
Thorin, invisible to US not each other. Alien? Well they don't live on this planet in the same way we do (according the Bible - I know we're leaving the evolutionists out here and they probably couldn't care less) and are always spoken of as being sent here as messengers or with duties to perform.
Why is it that in any debate between evolution and creationism the creationists point to the fact that evolution is unproved as proof that it is false? Have you creationist ever heard of a thing called logic?
There are a mutitude of accepted facts that point to evolution being a reality and not one accepted fact that creationism is reality. In fact you'd have to be pretty closed minded to believe in creationism as fact and pretty stupid too since it's a matter of faith and not a matter of fact. So is Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and The Great Pumkin.
There are a mutitude of accepted facts that point to evolution being a reality and not one accepted fact that creationism is reality. In fact you'd have to be pretty closed minded to believe in creationism as fact and pretty stupid too since it's a matter of faith and not a matter of fact. So is Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and The Great Pumkin.
apoppin
Lifer
Doomer, glad to see YOU are changing the topic (I felt so guilty before).
Ok, try this one. Why don't you logically prove evolution? I'll even answer it for you - it can't be done. This is one subject I have trapped many a professor into and they have agreed with the consensus of the forum members on this post. It takes faith to believe in evolution. Evolution is not proved, but it is the best theory IF you don't accept creation. The theory has far too many holes to be Scientific Fact.
I'll bet you don't know the first thing about the creation story as taught in the Bible - except what you have heard. It simply states: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Now there are many people who take the 6 days (time preparing the earth for man's habitation) as 6 literal days. That is not true, not taught in the Bible, and shouldn't be used as a basis for ridicule.
Evolution just seems more logical to YOU. However, there are equally intellegent people who have researched this deeply and have come to another conclusion. It's all a matter of faith (belief) - either way. "You pays your money and you takes your chances."
EDIT: Evidently you are just as close-minded as the creation believers you accuse. If you still want to debate this, I am willing.
In fact, I'd be happy to show you the LOGIC of creation.
Ok, try this one. Why don't you logically prove evolution? I'll even answer it for you - it can't be done. This is one subject I have trapped many a professor into and they have agreed with the consensus of the forum members on this post. It takes faith to believe in evolution. Evolution is not proved, but it is the best theory IF you don't accept creation. The theory has far too many holes to be Scientific Fact.
I'll bet you don't know the first thing about the creation story as taught in the Bible - except what you have heard. It simply states: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Now there are many people who take the 6 days (time preparing the earth for man's habitation) as 6 literal days. That is not true, not taught in the Bible, and shouldn't be used as a basis for ridicule.
Evolution just seems more logical to YOU. However, there are equally intellegent people who have researched this deeply and have come to another conclusion. It's all a matter of faith (belief) - either way. "You pays your money and you takes your chances."
EDIT: Evidently you are just as close-minded as the creation believers you accuse. If you still want to debate this, I am willing.
In fact, I'd be happy to show you the LOGIC of creation.
I really don't think the discovery of intelligent life on another planet would affect me. It would be thoroughly exciting, but it wouldn't affect me directly because unless they showed up knocking at our atmosphere, I'll probably never get to communicate with them. There's always a chance though
I think one aspect that hasn't been discussed here is that the discovery of intellegent life wouldn't necessarily disprove the possiblity of a greater power. So you see, this is a discussion that will forever exist.
<< Why is it that in any debate between evolution and creationism the creationists point to the fact that evolution is unproved as proof that it is false? >>
probably because this is the basis of the evolutionist beliefs, and if you can disprove one's basis of argument, you can show how their argument is possibly wrong.
I think one aspect that hasn't been discussed here is that the discovery of intellegent life wouldn't necessarily disprove the possiblity of a greater power. So you see, this is a discussion that will forever exist.
<< Why is it that in any debate between evolution and creationism the creationists point to the fact that evolution is unproved as proof that it is false? >>
probably because this is the basis of the evolutionist beliefs, and if you can disprove one's basis of argument, you can show how their argument is possibly wrong.
We have 180 degree field of vision that's completely linear. Now, imagine "seeing" in 360 degrees on all axies. Compound that with a non-linear POV that takes in all information, past and future, and dissimilates it as "the present". As eluded to in Ezekiel 1:12.
Well, I'm not going to go into more detail in this open forum. Email me if you want to discuss this in more detail.
Well, I'm not going to go into more detail in this open forum. Email me if you want to discuss this in more detail.
apoppin
Lifer
Thorin, your private messages function is not enabled. Yes, I am well familar with the scriptures that speak of "eyes being opened" to see angels. And demons being cast down to the earth vicinity.
However, my only point was that angels are "alien" to the earth. The Bible speaks as the earth being given to the sons of men - man is formed from the elements of the earth. And the angels are existing naturally in heaven. I am not debating a "spiritual" plane or dimension.
I was also refering to angels as not being generally visible to human eyes. Hence my reference to "invisible" and "alien".
Ok, I'll go farther since we strayed off-topic; If we are to believe the Bible - Superior Alien Intellegent life has already been discovered; contact has already been made and it affects us for good or evil. In fact, the Bible claims to be the product of other than human intellegence. (Ok, the worm can is open.)
However, my only point was that angels are "alien" to the earth. The Bible speaks as the earth being given to the sons of men - man is formed from the elements of the earth. And the angels are existing naturally in heaven. I am not debating a "spiritual" plane or dimension.
I was also refering to angels as not being generally visible to human eyes. Hence my reference to "invisible" and "alien".
Ok, I'll go farther since we strayed off-topic; If we are to believe the Bible - Superior Alien Intellegent life has already been discovered; contact has already been made and it affects us for good or evil. In fact, the Bible claims to be the product of other than human intellegence. (Ok, the worm can is open.)
Right appopin, the Bible does not discount that evolution is a valid possibility for some creatures. Mankind, on the other hand, is a special circumstance and has not (and I believe cannot) be proven to have evolved from any other species. All evidence so far points to humans being the same for all of recorded and non-recorded history.
1% difference between us and chimps? That's one hell of a percentage point. I've also heard we're more closely related to pigs (thus we're able to use their livers, hearts, kidneys, etc. in transplants). We can't do that with apes...
1% difference between us and chimps? That's one hell of a percentage point.
I've also heard we're more closely related to pigs (thus we're able to use their livers, hearts, kidneys, etc. in transplants). We can't do that with apes...
apoppin
Lifer
Thorin, send me a private message if you wish. Correct, the Bible speaks of variety (what evolutionists call evolution) yet "each according to it's kind". It does however, speak of mankind as being directly created.
EDIT: Just a thought. When I read sci-fi or watch Star-Trek, it seems that many evolutionists believe that EVENTUALLY man will be able to create artificial intellegence like Data. What's so hard about believing that a Superior Intellegence created us?
EDIT: Just a thought. When I read sci-fi or watch Star-Trek, it seems that many evolutionists believe that EVENTUALLY man will be able to create artificial intellegence like Data. What's so hard about believing that a Superior Intellegence created us?
Boy,this thread got long.It took me a 1/2 hour to get through it.Seemed a simple light hearted thread to begin with. What the hell happened?
I seem to have seen for my own eyes life created from pure elements in a laboratory just a few years ago.A duplication of events at the dawn of history on this planet where heat, moisture(H2O),electricity,(volcanic action creates lightening),and some of the other raw elements created amino acids that chained together and replicated.That study by the way is still going on.Last I heard,some type of bacteria has been created and Last II checked,bacteria meets the definition of life...........apoppin.........I'm surprised you weren't aware of this and more surprised no one else brout it up.
If we must take empericle evidence to prove our thesis,We will all come up short.It takes faith to believe in anything.I have faith what I am breathing is air becuase some "scientist " says so,even though I can't see it.
I have faith that the author of the book of Genisis is correct in what he wrote,knowing full well he wasn't there to witness the events.In as much as the Bible is repleat with "parables" as the tool used to attract the masses at the time(Life was much simpler then,and telling stories was the norm.No tv or WWW. then)I can still feel quite comfortable with the spiritual side of me that takes comfort in the plan of salvation as outlined in all the Bible.
I think there is room for both beliefs and they can support one another in the final scheme of life.
Just as that bacteria was created from raw elements in a lab,perhaps my god waited until the time was right to form his spiritual persona on the earth with the "Elements" here at the time.And I can concede He had the time to put those elements into play.
He may just be traveling around the universe dropping of new life on planets throughout all of space. Surely it would take some time for him to make the round trip. He said he will be back and he gave you a way to see him when he arrives.If you are truly concerned,you will find the way.
IMHO
I seem to have seen for my own eyes life created from pure elements in a laboratory just a few years ago.A duplication of events at the dawn of history on this planet where heat, moisture(H2O),electricity,(volcanic action creates lightening),and some of the other raw elements created amino acids that chained together and replicated.That study by the way is still going on.Last I heard,some type of bacteria has been created and Last II checked,bacteria meets the definition of life...........apoppin.........I'm surprised you weren't aware of this and more surprised no one else brout it up.
If we must take empericle evidence to prove our thesis,We will all come up short.It takes faith to believe in anything.I have faith what I am breathing is air becuase some "scientist " says so,even though I can't see it.
I have faith that the author of the book of Genisis is correct in what he wrote,knowing full well he wasn't there to witness the events.In as much as the Bible is repleat with "parables" as the tool used to attract the masses at the time(Life was much simpler then,and telling stories was the norm.No tv or WWW. then)I can still feel quite comfortable with the spiritual side of me that takes comfort in the plan of salvation as outlined in all the Bible.
I think there is room for both beliefs and they can support one another in the final scheme of life.
Just as that bacteria was created from raw elements in a lab,perhaps my god waited until the time was right to form his spiritual persona on the earth with the "Elements" here at the time.And I can concede He had the time to put those elements into play.
He may just be traveling around the universe dropping of new life on planets throughout all of space. Surely it would take some time for him to make the round trip. He said he will be back and he gave you a way to see him when he arrives.If you are truly concerned,you will find the way.
IMHO
apoppin
Lifer
Tripleshot, link please.
What I had last heard, was that scientists created what they believed was a precursor to life. Life itself (bacteria) was NOT created. If you have more info, please send it my way. I'm very interested.
You can look at creation/evolution anyway you like. I only pointed out that the Bible says man was directly created in an elegant way - directly - by a superintellegent being. Since I do know what the Bible says, I was merely repeating what I read as a matter of interest - as a counterpoint to what is commonly taught by religion (literal 6 days create the earth - which science does NOT support and the Bible does not teach).
What I had last heard, was that scientists created what they believed was a precursor to life. Life itself (bacteria) was NOT created. If you have more info, please send it my way. I'm very interested.
You can look at creation/evolution anyway you like. I only pointed out that the Bible says man was directly created in an elegant way - directly - by a superintellegent being. Since I do know what the Bible says, I was merely repeating what I read as a matter of interest - as a counterpoint to what is commonly taught by religion (literal 6 days create the earth - which science does NOT support and the Bible does not teach).
apoppin
I am looking for some back up on that.I seem to recall being startled at the announcement,otherwise I don't think it would have mattered.But when it was seen on T.V. they said they had created a bacteria that was eating the goo created by the experiment.I would not make this up.Not for the sake of arguing in this thread.I just wanted to point out that creating life from nothing is possible with the right circumstances.And if the building blocks for life are there,then life could have crawled out of the sea and morphed into what we see now. Anything can happen.
I still hold dear my spiritual beliefs and respect those that do the same.I have found comfort in my beliefs that do not deter from the evolutionist theory. The Gallapogos Islands are a testement to evolutionary change in our relitive life time. It doesn't sway my faith at all.
I am looking for some back up on that.I seem to recall being startled at the announcement,otherwise I don't think it would have mattered.But when it was seen on T.V. they said they had created a bacteria that was eating the goo created by the experiment.I would not make this up.Not for the sake of arguing in this thread.I just wanted to point out that creating life from nothing is possible with the right circumstances.And if the building blocks for life are there,then life could have crawled out of the sea and morphed into what we see now. Anything can happen.
I still hold dear my spiritual beliefs and respect those that do the same.I have found comfort in my beliefs that do not deter from the evolutionist theory. The Gallapogos Islands are a testement to evolutionary change in our relitive life time. It doesn't sway my faith at all.
apoppin
Lifer
"Creating life from nothing" is not as simple as one would believe. This is mostly because of the incredibly complexity of "simple" microscopic forms of life.
As I remember, there were incredible difficulties producing all 20 amino acids - the building blocks of protein - needed for life to exist. First of all, no one knows what earth's primitive atmosphere was like; secondly, with oxygen in the air, amino acids could not be produced and without it they would be wiped out by cosmic radiation.
In the original experiment - with the spark passed through an atmosphere - the amino acids formed were then decomposed by the spark. If they were somehow produced under water, the energy beneath the surface would not be sufficient to continue further growth of more complex molecules. Water favors depolymerization; getting out of the water leads to exposure to ultraviolet light. Catch 22.
And there are over 100 amino acids of which 20 are needed for life. In a random formation, likely half would be right-handed, half left-handed. Yet of the 20 amino acids used in producing life's proteins, ALL are left-handed. Pretty big odds against forming even a simple protein molecule.
The odds get worse. Some proteins serve as enzymes, others as structural materials. Without these, the cell will die. And about 2,000 proteins serving as enzymes are needed for the cell's activity. What are the chances of producing these at random? Astronomical.
Then there is the problem of the membrane enclosing the cell being extremely complex, requiring protein, sugar and fat molecules. Then the complete DNA genetic code has to form which is exceedingly complex and it must develop in parallel with the proteins!
Now, if you can accept that happening by chance, the next hurdle our evolving cell must overcome is the development of photosynthesis. This is something our primitive science has not yet been able to accomplish, yet a primitive cell is supposed to have accomplished it. All by random chance.
As I remember, there were incredible difficulties producing all 20 amino acids - the building blocks of protein - needed for life to exist. First of all, no one knows what earth's primitive atmosphere was like; secondly, with oxygen in the air, amino acids could not be produced and without it they would be wiped out by cosmic radiation.
In the original experiment - with the spark passed through an atmosphere - the amino acids formed were then decomposed by the spark. If they were somehow produced under water, the energy beneath the surface would not be sufficient to continue further growth of more complex molecules. Water favors depolymerization; getting out of the water leads to exposure to ultraviolet light. Catch 22.
And there are over 100 amino acids of which 20 are needed for life. In a random formation, likely half would be right-handed, half left-handed. Yet of the 20 amino acids used in producing life's proteins, ALL are left-handed. Pretty big odds against forming even a simple protein molecule.
The odds get worse. Some proteins serve as enzymes, others as structural materials. Without these, the cell will die. And about 2,000 proteins serving as enzymes are needed for the cell's activity. What are the chances of producing these at random? Astronomical.
Then there is the problem of the membrane enclosing the cell being extremely complex, requiring protein, sugar and fat molecules. Then the complete DNA genetic code has to form which is exceedingly complex and it must develop in parallel with the proteins!
Now, if you can accept that happening by chance, the next hurdle our evolving cell must overcome is the development of photosynthesis. This is something our primitive science has not yet been able to accomplish, yet a primitive cell is supposed to have accomplished it. All by random chance.
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