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How would history have changed if Hitler hadn't killed Jews?

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Hitler was a racist fascist dictator who persecuted everyone who wasn't pure Aryan. Whether he killed the Jews or not many would have fled the country. Especially the more highly educated ones who had the means to leave and could look forward to being treated better elsewhere. He also considered a lot of physics like Einstein's Relativity to be "communistic" and would never have supported such people. In other words, he was complete nut who was so incompetent that at one point when the allies had the chance to assassinate him they let him live so that he could force Germany to loose the war just that much faster.

Of course, if he wasn't a racist fascist then he never would have risen to power or tried to conquer the world.

It is not that strange.
Hitlers was saturated with lethal chemicals by his physician Theodor Morell.
Theodor Morell experimented by injecting Hitler with all kinds of chemicals.
Hitler was crazy as he was, but all that methamphetamine and more sure did not help...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodor_Morell#Substances_given_to_Hitler

  • Amphetamines
  • Belladonna
  • Atropine
  • Caffeine
  • Chamomile
  • Cocaine (via eye drops)
  • E. coli Enzymes
  • Glyconorm
  • Methamphetamine
  • Morphine
  • Nux Vomica (a form of strychnine)
  • Oxedrine
  • Tartrate
  • Potassium bromide
  • Prophenazone
  • Proteins and lipids derived from animal tissues and fats
  • Sodium barbitone
  • Sulphonamide
  • Testosterone
  • Vitamins

 
Incompetent? He overran Europe and brought one of the world's super powers to its knees, taking out other countries like I take down cookies at a buffet, finally overcome only by the concerted effort of multiple industrialized nations.

Nobody says you need to like the guy, and he made plenty of mistakes (as all sides did), but he was far from incompetent. To label him as such we must conclude thus that the Allied forces were only very slightly less incompetent.

I don't think it's a small feat to take a country ravaged by war and put through the ringer and a mere three decades later have it rise so high it's once again threatening an entire continent.

German generals where very good as well. And Germany was extremely far ahead technology wise at the time. The tape recorder was invented in Germany during the war. At that time they knew how poisonous tobacco was and that it was a cause for cancer. Many basic discoveries where done in Germany on the field of RF electronics and radar. And there was one more thing... More then once, German infantry seemed indestructible. But that was because they where filled up with Pervitin.

http://amphetamines.com/nazi.html

The Nazis preached abstinence in the name of promoting national health. But when it came to fighting their Blitzkrieg, they had no qualms about pumping their soldiers full of drugs and alcohol. Speed was the drug of choice, but many others became addicted to morphine and alcohol.

In a letter dated November 9, 1939, to his "dear parents and siblings" back home in Cologne, a young soldier stationed in occupied Poland wrote: "It's tough out here, and I hope you'll understand if I'm only able to write to you once every two to four days soon. Today I'm writing you mainly to ask for some Pervitin ...; Love, Hein."

Pervitin, a stimulant commonly known as speed today, was the German army's -- the Wehrmacht's -- wonder drug.

On May 20, 1940, the 22-year-old soldier wrote to his family again: "Perhaps you could get me some more Pervitin so that I can have a backup supply?" And, in a letter sent from Bromberg on July 19, 1940, he wrote: "If at all possible, please send me some more Pervitin." The man who wrote these letters became a famous writer later in life. He was Heinrich Boell, and in 1972 he was the first German to be awarded the Nobel Prize for Literature in the post-war period.

Many of the Wehrmacht's soldiers were high on Pervitin when they went into battle, especially against Poland and France -- in a Blitzkrieg fueled by speed. The German military was supplied with millions of methamphetamine tablets during the first half of 1940. The drugs were part of a plan to help pilots, sailors and infantry troops become capable of superhuman performance. The military leadership liberally dispensed such stimulants, but also alcohol and opiates, as long as it believed drugging and intoxicating troops could help it achieve victory over the Allies. But the Nazis were less than diligent in monitoring side-effects like drug addiction and a decline in moral standards.
 
Also the people fighting for Britain would have had a lower morale because then there would be one huge horrible thing that Hitler hadn't done and that was one of the reasons that so many people hated Hitler.

Bullshit! Hitler bombed the living shit out of Britain, irrespective of his other attrocities. The Brits didn't need his anti-semitic acts to inspire them to fight. They were well aware of Hitler's murderous conquests of the rest of Western Europe, and they knew he was as destructively anti-Roma (gypsy), anti-intellectual, anti-homosexual and more, as well. Fighting was their only option for survival.

On top of that, the U.S. didn't elect to go to war against Hitler. Hitler declared war on the U.S. on December 11, 1941, four days after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor and Congress declared war on Japan. The good news for us is, it was one of his worst decisions.
 
In my opinion, this thread is somewhat dubious. It was not just Germany, almost all of Europe was anti-Semitic. Einstein may have been German or more properly Austrian, but other than lending his credibility, he had little to do with the Manhattan project. And Dr. Teller was Hungarian and Fermi was Italian so it was not just German Jews that brainstormed the building of the first A-bombs.

Nor were the causes of WW2 much to do with Jews, as Hitler on the rampage got all the publicity, while bitterly complaining Jewish leaders got ignored during WW2. Only when allied soldiers at the end of WW2 over ran Nazi extermination camps was the full Hitler brutality discovered, as Hitler murdered far more Slav's than Jews, and by a wide 50 million to six million margin.

As the Hitler suicide was motivated by Russian armies closing in on Berlin from a wide variety of directions.

But still the Jewish Holocaust during WW2 would have not happened without broad European support from almost every nation in Europe.
 
wow, look if there were more manpower the war would have lasted longer in which time the V rocket would have finished being developed. Also more manpower would have been crucial to the battle of Britain which could have been a victory for the Luftwaffe. Also the people fighting for Britain would have had a lower morale because then there would be one huge horrible thing that Hitler hadn't done and that was one of the reasons that so many people hated Hitler. Also with the combined power of the V missile and the Luftwaffe Hitler would have been able to take over Britain. In which time he could have put his resources on stopping the war and with the V missile he could have easily defended his newly earned territory. Then as he saw the huge success the V missile was he could have passed it on to the Japs and with that on their ships they could have easily destroyed America. And today I would be writing in a forum about what if our great leader Hitler hated Jews in GERMAN.:awe:

The V weapons while technologically revolutionary did not possess the ability to force the UK to end the war. Only the U-boat force had that ability and Hitler went to war too early, with too few submarines and wasted resources on surface ships. Our sub forces strangled Japan in much the same way in 43-45.
 
The more interesting question would probably be what'd happen if Hitler had not invaded the Soviet Union in '41 and instead kept to the Molotov-Ribbentorp agreement. World War II wasn't so much won on the western front as it was lost on the eastern front. Without Nazi Germany and USSR battling it out, who knows what would've happened to Britain. Would the US move in to try and reclaim the UK without a foothold in Europe?
 
The more interesting question would probably be what'd happen if Hitler had not invaded the Soviet Union in '41 and instead kept to the Molotov-Ribbentorp agreement. World War II wasn't so much won on the western front as it was lost on the eastern front. Without Nazi Germany and USSR battling it out, who knows what would've happened to Britain. Would the US move in to try and reclaim the UK without a foothold in Europe?

Hitler never had any intention of keeping the pact, he had his sights on the USSR long before he came to power and for the entire time after (see Generalplan Ost). Hitler didn't allow any time for letting the Wehrmacht prepare for winter combat or to press the attack on Moscow as early as possible. Two foreseeable problems if he had ever bothered to read his history.
 
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Hitler never had any intention of keeping the pact, he had his sights on the USSR long before he came to power and for the entire time after (see Generalplan Ost). Hitler didn't allow any time for letting the Wehrmacht prepare for winter combat or to press the attack on Moscow as early as possible. Two foreseeable problems if he had ever bothered to read his history.

This is kinda my point, I don't know if it got lost in translation. The attack on the Soviet was premature, it was an all-or-nothing attack that was not necessary at the moment.

Edit: I'm not saying the attack would've never taken place, I'm just speculating in the outcome had the Wehrmacht been prepared and the timing improved.
 
is it true that the estimated number of jews who were killed was some 12 million?
what i wonder is how many more people would occupy the planet if they lived.
 
The V weapons while technologically revolutionary did not possess the ability to force the UK to end the war. Only the U-boat force had that ability and Hitler went to war too early, with too few submarines and wasted resources on surface ships. Our sub forces strangled Japan in much the same way in 43-45.
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As an amateur historian of WW2, I have to somewhat quibble with K1052 in terms of the importance of subs in Germany and especially the Pacific theaters of war.

K1052 is somewhat correct on German subs during the 1939-42 phases of the Atlantic German phases of the war, dubbed the happy years by German submariners. As German engineering and mass production perfected fast assembly of new and faster submarines with longer range. But better sonar systems plus the convoy system allowed the allied forces to keep German sub sinking at pace with German production. But the real end to subs came with the British invention of the magnetron, a sub centimeter radar system small enough to fit on planes. And as the allied forces had gained the air advantage, subs were dumb, fat, and happy when they surfaced to charge their batteries at night. Unaware that land based planes could see them plain as day.

But in the Pacific is where K1052 is most wrong, as few Japanese or US subs had the range to operate in a 5000 mile Ocean. As the Japs based their whole strategy on knocking out the US Naval forces at Pearl Harbor. And while the Japs decremented most of the US Pacific Ocean battleships, the US carriers, had already put to sea a few days before. Leaving the USA almost defenseless to a greatly superior Japanese Navy,. As Japan had more carriers, battleships, and naval assets of all types. But no where was the disparity as great as in the quality of Japanese planes and pilot training. But after Pearl Harbor could not really press their advantage, as they were consumed with chasing out any remaining European Naval assets and capturing all the colonial assets of Southeast Asia. That would allow them the natural resources to sustain a war economy almost indefinitely. As the whole Pacific Ocean became an Japanese lake where nothing could trespass.

The US in 1942 had only one advantage, they had cracked the Japanese Naval code and learned Midway Island was the next target. As the US gambled all their carriers in a gamble to surprise a vastly superior Japanese armada, consisting of 4 carriers, the most modern battleships, plus a huge number of troop transports that should have made taking midway Island a piece of cake. The Japs struck first as they bombed and the Island and shot down and allied planes. Little aware 3 US carriers were lying in ambush to the Northwest. As the US carriers were first to detect the Japanese carriers and all three launched strikes with decidedly inferior US planes of various types in an ill co-originated attack. As the Japs shot down wave after wave of US planes with their vastly superior zero fighters until the USA got incredibly lucky. In repelling a ill fated set of torpedo bombers it pulled their zero fighters down to a low altitude, just as a set of late arriving US dive bombers found themselves over the entire four carriers at high altitude. And even then found themselves double lucky as all four Jap carriers were rearming and fueling. And soon 3 of the four Jap carriers were ablaze and sinking, and the other was badly wounded. As the Japanese invasion of midway was called off.

After that it was simply what Yamotota feared, once the war economy of the USA gained critical mass, it could out produce Japan by a wide margin, and even if the Japs still retained a descent Navy, it became worthless as the Japs could no longer obtain the oil to fuel them as the brilliant MacArthur Island hopping strategy soon found its self withing B-29 bombing range.

We can somewhat ask was an A-bomb Necessary to finish Japan off to avoid the casualties of a US invasion? If the US had waited a few months, Japan would be forced to surrender because it could no longer feed its own people who were already starving as it was.
 
Most US subs in service as of 41-42 and thereafter had cruise ranges of 10K+ miles. They were also faster submerged and surfaced than their Axis counterparts. What we did not have were the commanders/torpedoes/strategy to press our advantage unil late 43. Technologically speaking US submarines were probably the most advanced at the outbreak of the war. The downside was that we had no idea how to actually use them and even fewer commanders who actually would.

Only in 43 did we get the confluence of working torpedoes and skippers who were daring enough to use them. First on Japanese surface combatants then on their merchant fleet (which is what really drove the Japanese to a halt).
 
We can somewhat ask was an A-bomb Necessary to finish Japan off to avoid the casualties of a US invasion? If the US had waited a few months, Japan would be forced to surrender because it could no longer feed its own people who were already starving as it was.

To address this point the Japanese were already mostly starving and had been for a couple years. The submarine service sinking pretty much all cargo traffic had ground inter-island shipping to a halt. The USAF bombed the crap of out of the already shaky Japanese rail network. They physically couldn't get food from the fields (though already diminished due to crop failure) into population centers.

Had we staked out the country for even a few more months with a naval blockade the deaths from famine would have been in the millions.
 
Hitler would still have no chance of winning, with Jews or not. USSR alone was able to defeat over 70% of Nazi forces. And it wasn't the most technologically advanced country, at least in the beginning of the war.
 
The Holocaust had little to do with the War itself. Germany would have still lost, they just wouldn't have the shame of the Holocaust to live with.
 
Hitler would still have no chance of winning, with Jews or not. USSR alone was able to defeat over 70% of Nazi forces. And it wasn't the most technologically advanced country, at least in the beginning of the war.

I believe a lot of that was due to the Nazi's diesel fuel freezing up. so many of their tanks..etc became useless. They literally just stopped running right in the middle of battle often. Also the soldiers were not properly attired for the cold weather that the USSR had.

I think if Germany would have kept to itself and not attack others, they probably would have continued for quite some time.
 
I believe a lot of that was due to the Nazi's diesel fuel freezing up. so many of their tanks..etc became useless. They literally just stopped running right in the middle of battle often. Also the soldiers were not properly attired for the cold weather that the USSR had.

I think if Germany would have kept to itself and not attack others, they probably would have continued for quite some time.

Indeed, if the Germans had not had the dumb plan to attack the Russians on Russian ground in the winter, the outcome would have been different and the WW II war would have taken longer. Lucky all of us, i would say.
 
In my opinion, this thread is somewhat dubious. It was not just Germany, almost all of Europe was anti-Semitic. Einstein may have been German or more properly Austrian, but other than lending his credibility, he had little to do with the Manhattan project. And Dr. Teller was Hungarian and Fermi was Italian so it was not just German Jews that brainstormed the building of the first A-bombs.

Nor were the causes of WW2 much to do with Jews, as Hitler on the rampage got all the publicity, while bitterly complaining Jewish leaders got ignored during WW2. Only when allied soldiers at the end of WW2 over ran Nazi extermination camps was the full Hitler brutality discovered, as Hitler murdered far more Slav's than Jews, and by a wide 50 million to six million margin.

As the Hitler suicide was motivated by Russian armies closing in on Berlin from a wide variety of directions.

But still the Jewish Holocaust during WW2 would have not happened without broad European support from almost every nation in Europe.

It is true that in times of misery and poverty, a scapegoat will always be appointed anyware. For many little reasons (but together become serious in influencing the opinion of other non Jews) , this seems to be always the Jews, the gypsies, the poor, foreigners and so on. In Europe this was not different.
 
And no the war was not close. The Germans had to defeat the Soviets then defeat the Americans. NEITHER of them were beaten. Even Britain survived the war, and that's not really a big country.

Britain was not beaten only because of US aid making it through. The resources that Germany could bring against her were much greater than what she had. The sea blockade and aerial attacks would have worn her down.

The two primary mistakes were
  • Going after the Soviets (To soon and with to little.)
  • Targeting the population centers of England rather than the industrial sector.
Two front wars are dangerous
 
The whole point of Nazism was to oppress the so-called lesser races. The Holocaust was planned all along.

Germany lost the war due to poor strategic planning, largely brought on by Hitler himself.
 
`

Just like the Muslims, Mexicans and Mormons today

The problem is also the rituals. If someone would have a ritual that would cause negative emotions with others, then that person will be a scapegoat.
Of course we must also not forget that there are rotten apples to be found in every garden. And these rotten apples amplify a certain negative mindset with others. Add a little propaganda on top of that. And a very volatile situation will arise.

Saved the best for last : Language barriers.

Ensured cause for problems :
  1. Language barriers (this causes large amounts of paranoia).
  2. Rituals.
  3. Rotten apples.
  4. Propaganda.
 
Well if Hitler didn't hate Jews he wouldn't have risen to power. Other politicians would have capitalized on that demand in Germany. The real question is, would other far-right parties have stayed in power and executed their ideology so ferociously? I tend to think not. I think Hitler was the wrong guy at the wrong time. I think others wouldn't have gone so far except maybe to marginalize Jews which would have been undone decades later.

Germany's WW2 conquests don't make sense without racial /religious hatred. I don't think they would have happened without it.
 
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