How would history have changed if Hitler hadn't killed Jews?

[ProfJohn]

^ Midway

That was the turning point. But even if that hadn't happen the US still would have won once our industrial might started pouring out ships faster than the Japanese could even think about building ships.

We built 24 carriers during WW 2 the Japanese built 17 most of which were smaller ones. After the war stated the Japanese only build 4 larger carries compared to the 14 built by us.

 

[Muse]

Hitler was a racist fascist dictator who persecuted everyone who wasn't pure Aryan. Whether he killed the Jews or not many would have fled the country. Especially the more highly educated ones who had the means to leave and could look forward to being treated better elsewhere. He also considered a lot of physics like Einstein's Relativity to be "communistic" and would never have supported such people. In other words, he was complete nut who was so incompetent that at one point when the allies had the chance to assassinate him they let him live so that he could force Germany to loose the war just that much faster.

Of course, if he wasn't a racist fascist then he never would have risen to power or tried to conquer the world.

Hitler was pretty nutty. Let's hypothesize that he hadn't targeted the Jews, that he'd had the foresight to realize that they could help him in his efforts. If he'd targeted others, the Jews would have been suspicious that he would eventually target them (Jews historically, have been scapegoated, so they would have been very sensitive to this), and many would have fled, especially the ones who were better educated, the ones who could have helped Germany the most. Of course, if Hitler hadn't targeted anyone, he would have been a very different person, making this an absurd idea entirely.

 

[Schadenfroh]

We got lucky with Japan.
...
Without that victory it would have been a very different war.

Even without the Battle of Midway and The Marianas Turkey Shoot, we would have won, it would have just taken longer. America had more people, greater industrial potential, more natural resources (in areas not prone to revolt), better technology and some damn good leadership. Japanese admirals with sense knew that they could not win a longterm war against America (best they could hope for was land grabs, short-term strategic victories and a peace agreement with favorable terms).

Without having to worry about Europe, all of our effort could have been focused on Japan. Japan also had to keep eastern Asia pacified, the population of those occupied areas would have revolted at the slightest hint of weakness. Not to mention, they were trying to occupy China as well, their troops would have to stay there to prevent revolts. That is a good bit of overhead and diversion of resources.

Our technology was comparable, better if we devoted our cutting edge technology to Asia instead of Europe and we (America, China and Australia) could have just zerged them to death if needed. The Japanese also did not have the balls to use chemical or biological weapons against Western Forces, although they used them against countries that did not have the ability to strike back (like China). If it came to it, we would have unleashed those weapons and ours were much better than theirs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction

 

[rudeguy]

We got lucky with Japan. I forget the name of the battle but Japan was out gunning us pretty bad. By a fluke, one of the Japanese Admirals ordered their fighters to land and let the pilots rest before letting reserve pilots up in the air. That left 3 or 4 of their carriers without defenses and we pounced. Without that victory it would have been a very different war.

you are thinking of Midway

The only reason Midway went down like it did was because we got one piece of code saying that target X would be attacked. We tricked Japan into revealing what target X was and we were able to defeat them because of that. If either of those two small things hadn't happened, Midway could have been a slaughter and we could have lost our last few carriers.

But that's the wrong front. The battle against Japan might as well have been a whole different war.

 

[ShawnD1]

It would have just taken longer, America had more people and industrial might.

And more fuel. Germany was running a constant fuel shortage as well. It's really hard to fight a proper war when you have no fuel. It's like trying to pull rocks up a hill in a Corolla. It just won't go.

irrc, Japan attacking the US had something to do with a fuel shortage. Something like the US wouldn't sell fuel to Japan or was blocking some route or something. Don't quote me on that.

 

[Matt1970]

Midway. That's the one.

 

[Genx87]

We got lucky with Japan. I forget the name of the battle but Japan was out gunning us pretty bad. By a fluke, one of the Japanese Admirals ordered their fighters to land and let the pilots rest before letting reserve pilots up in the air. That left 3 or 4 of their carriers without defenses and we pounced. Without that victory it would have been a very different war.

Battle of Midway.

But I dont think if we lose the war in the Pacific if Midwar turned out different. The Japanese war machine was just dreadful, their strategy poor, and their navy was dwarfed by American industrial might. It may have prolonged the war. But the outcome would had been the same. And instead of 2 nukes maybe we drop 4 or 6.

 

[Schadenfroh]

And more fuel. Germany was running a constant fuel shortage as well. It's really hard to fight a proper war when you have no fuel. It's like trying to pull rocks up a hill in a Corolla. It just won't go.

irrc, Japan attacking the US had something to do with a fuel shortage. Something like the US wouldn't sell fuel to Japan or was blocking some route or something. Don't quote me on that.

Yep, that was one of their justifications. America suspended oil exports to Japan (some other material / goods as well) after they started getting overly aggressive. Image that, America as an oil exporter...

I have read accounts of Kamikaze planes crashing into American ships and their Firestone tires (sold to Japan before the embargo) rolling across the deck.

 

[Genx87]

you are thinking of Midway

The only reason Midway went down like it did was because we got one piece of code saying that target X would be attacked. We tricked Japan into revealing what target X was and we were able to defeat them because of that. If either of those two small things hadn't happened, Midway could have been a slaughter and we could have lost our last few carriers.

But that's the wrong front. The battle against Japan might as well have been a whole different war.

A Japanese destroyer that stayed back looking for a US sub lead US torpedo bombers to the main force as it steamed full speed ahead to catch up.

Oops lol

 

[Matt1970]

Also one of the Japanese scout planes made an error judging our position before the initial attacks.

 

[ayabe]

Without his hatred of the Jews, Hitler as we know him would never have existed, he would not have risen to power in Germany - his exploitation of fear and anxiety is what allowed that all to happen.

Here are a few what-if's I think about from time to time

1. What if that one German bomber crew had not accidentally dropped their bombs on London, triggering the British to bomb Berlin, which then caused the Germans to stop focusing on the British air fields and switch to targeting civilians - giving the RAF the breathing room they needed to recover and win the Battle of Britain.

2. What if Hitler had not invaded Russia in 1941 and instead focused on North Africa? He could have secured all the oil he wanted from the middle east since there were already promises made to Germany for helping get rid of the Brits.

3. What if Hitler required that the Japanese declare war on the Soviets as a condition for declaring war on the USA after Pearl Harbor? A Japanese incursion into eastern Russia would have prevented Stalin from transferring those troops west, perhaps allowing the Germans to win at Stalingrad.

 

[piasabird]

It was a jew that found a way both to make fertilizer from the Air, and a way to make diesel from Coal. He worked for Germany. Otherwise they would have run out of fuel long before the end of the war. Interesting Irony.

See the book "Alchemy of the Air":

http://www.amazon.com/Alchemy-Air-Je.../dp/0307351785

Maybe Jewish scientists would have flourished and solved more problems for the world.

 

[wuliheron]

Hitler was pretty nutty. Let's hypothesize that he hadn't targeted the Jews, that he'd had the foresight to realize that they could help him in his efforts. If he'd targeted others, the Jews would have been suspicious that he would eventually target them (Jews historically, have been scapegoated, so they would have been very sensitive to this), and many would have fled, especially the ones who were better educated, the ones who could have helped Germany the most. Of course, if Hitler hadn't targeted anyone, he would have been a very different person, making this an absurd idea entirely.

It's also absurd because the US simply had far greater resources to devote to the project and at best Hitler would have developed the bomb 2 years after us even if he had the brightest physicists at his disposal. Scientists aren't magicians who can conjure things out of thin air no matter how bright they might be and the basic theories required were already well known. The details were the sticking point and those required as much trial and error as brains to figure out.

 

[Exterous]

By 1942 the US gdp was 3 times that of Germany. There was no way that Germany could win a war against a country with three times the industry and twice it's population. Especially considering that our home land was 100% free from attack during the whole war while Germany was pounded to bits.

If the Germans managed to take Britain I think they would stand a very good chance of preventing the US from gaining a foothold on Europe

We got lucky with Japan. I forget the name of the battle but Japan was out gunning us pretty bad. By a fluke, one of the Japanese Admirals ordered their fighters to land and let the pilots rest before letting reserve pilots up in the air. That left 3 or 4 of their carriers without defenses and we pounced. Without that victory it would have been a very different war.

^ Midway

That was the turning point. But even if that hadn't happen the US still would have won once our industrial might started pouring out ships faster than the Japanese could even think about building ships.

I agree with ProfJohn and Admiral Yamamoto said pretty much the same thing. The heavy industry just didn't exist in Asia at that time to complete with the US

Now a much more interesting question is how would the war have been different if the Axis had been a lot better with their electronic signal encryption

 

[tommo123]

i might be wrong, but once hitler decided to attack russia, wasn't a large amount of germanys forces involved in that war?

what would have happened if hitler had kept the non aggression pact with russia, or worse still, if they somehow joined forces? i.e, iirc, germany invaded russia during the winter which caused major problems. if they had done this sooner, they would have (again, iirc) gone straight through to moscow and taken the country.

 

[theeedude]

If Hitler was not a homicidal maniac, big parts of USSR would have voluntarily joined him to fight Stalin, as some Baltic states did. Instead he gave them a choice between a homicidal maniac they knew and one they didn't, so it was a tough call to make.

 

[Genx87]

i might be wrong, but once hitler decided to attack russia, wasn't a large amount of germanys forces involved in that war?

what would have happened if hitler had kept the non aggression pact with russia, or worse still, if they somehow joined forces? i.e, iirc, germany invaded russia during the winter which caused major problems. if they had done this sooner, they would have (again, iirc) gone straight through to moscow and taken the country.

Yes the moajority of Germany's fighting forces were in the East. Also most of their best units were also utilized on that front. I dont think Hitler could keep that pact. Ideologically speaking communism and national socialism were at odds and Hitler's book outlines the need to first take control of Ukraine agriculture and then eradicate\enslave the slavs in that region for the benefit of the Nazi state. Plus I think the Soviets were planning to push West some time in 1942 anyways. It was a matter of time until those two ideologies dukes it out.

Germany invaded the Soviet Union on June 22nd 1941. They were at the Moscow outskirts in November. They could had taken Moscow in October but turned a large amount of Army group center back to help encircle 650,000 soviet troops around kiev. They did this because Army Group south did not have the stength to keep the circle. This set them back 1 month. That 1 month allowed reinforcements from the far East to arrive and the winter to set in. I firmly believe if the Germans take Moscow in October. The whole of the Soviet union falls. Their rail system went through Moscow. Stalin would be captured or dead. And they could push to the Urals and keep the far east troops from helping.

 

[Schadenfroh]

The Reds were moving their factories and command / control facilities out of Moscow and to the Ural Mountains. Capturing Moscow would have served four goals, boosting German morale, encouraging Japan to strike (a seemingly weakened) Russia in the east (although, I do not think they had plans to help their German allies out), demoralizing the Soviets (unlikely to be effective against Russians, maybe the other Soviet forces) and controlling the railroad hub (as mentioned by Genx87). The Soviets would have likely burned Moscow to the ground (see Napoleonic Wars) and destroyed the railroad hub if the Germans were to capture it. Stalin would have secretly left the city and headed to one of their command / control facilities in the Ural mountains if things got dicey, although they would have claimed he was in the city till the end.

The encirclement campaigns were necessary, you do not want large Soviet armies slipping into the wilderness. Napoleon had trouble with this and they were right to encircle the Reds to keep from making his mistakes. But, the problem with the Eastern Front was no clear objective other than destroying the Soviet Army itself. It seems they could not make up their minds whether or not to take certain cities or to focus on oil fields (a wiser choice, IMO). By the time they seem to be ready to take a target, they change their minds and go for another objective. Oddly enough, this sometimes actually helped at the task of defeating the main Soviet Army as their actions seemed illogical and attacks came in unexpected places. But, tactical victories do not equal strategic victory.

Another issue was the way the Axis treated the Soviet POWs and civilians. They treated Western Europeans far, far better than Eastern Europeans and American / British POWs much, much better than Soviet POWs. Take it, The Soviet Union did not agree to the rules of civilized warfare, but Germany did sign. The Soviets returned the brutality, several fold. Civilians notice that kind of thing.

If Germany had backed the underground Nationalist movements (which were somewhat pro-German till Germany occupied their countries and were shown to be exceedingly cruel) in the Soviet satellite states and went in as liberators, setting up anti-communist republics free of Soviet oppression, they could have held on to territory with much greater ease. But, they treated the Nationalists like Communists and thus like animals. There was a violent suppression of a Polish revolt towards the end of the war that words cannot describe, suffice to say the Nazis executed one of the commanders of the forces sent to put down the revolt for being too cruel...

But, hindsight is 20/20, many analysts were predicting the Soviet Union to fall in only a few months.

 

[PieIsAwesome]

Are you really that much of an idiot?

France and England made it very clear that attacking Poland would bring them into war with Germany so Hitler knew what he was doing.

If China was to invade Canada and we went to their defense would it be okay for the Chinese to claim that they didn't want a war with the US?

That would be aggression on their part. Germany didn't attack France or Britain. Germany attacked Poland after much warning because it would not return land and German citizens (in particular the city of Danzig) that rightfully belonged to Germany.

If Hitler weren't such a homicidal maniac, he would have been remembered as a hero that tried to reunify and restore Germany. If he had been successful, he would also have been remembered for exacting revenge on the British and especially the French.

 

[Emos]

I have to agree with Schadenfroh's assessment. For anyone who's interested in the East Front of WWII, I would recommend downloading a podcast that Dan Carlin has called "Hardcore History". His "Ghosts of the Ostfront" series was captivating IMHO...

 

[glenn1]

What if Hitler hadn't killed/persecuted Jews?

Stalin would have picked up the slack; the only difference is instead of rounding them up at once and finishing them off relatively quickly via Zyklon B they would have been sent piecemeal to the gulag to die slowly.

 

[CallMeJoe]

...This set them back 1 month. That 1 month allowed reinforcements from the far East to arrive and the winter to set in. I firmly believe if the Germans take Moscow in October...

You also should consider Operation Marita. Germany was forced to intervene in Greece when their Italian allies were routed and the Balkans were exposed to British invasion. This operation (started in April 1941) both delayed the start of Operation Barbarossa and depleted some of the armored units so critical to success on the Steppes.

 

[Doppel]

Hitler was a racist fascist dictator who persecuted everyone who wasn't pure Aryan. Whether he killed the Jews or not many would have fled the country. Especially the more highly educated ones who had the means to leave and could look forward to being treated better elsewhere. He also considered a lot of physics like Einstein's Relativity to be "communistic" and would never have supported such people. In other words, he was complete nut who was so incompetent that at one point when the allies had the chance to assassinate him they let him live so that he could force Germany to loose the war just that much faster.

Of course, if he wasn't a racist fascist then he never would have risen to power or tried to conquer the world.

Incompetent? He overran Europe and brought one of the world's super powers to its knees, taking out other countries like I take down cookies at a buffet, finally overcome only by the concerted effort of multiple industrialized nations.

Nobody says you need to like the guy, and he made plenty of mistakes (as all sides did), but he was far from incompetent. To label him as such we must conclude thus that the Allied forces were only very slightly less incompetent.

I don't think it's a small feat to take a country ravaged by war and put through the ringer and a mere three decades later have it rise so high it's once again threatening an entire continent.

 

[wuliheron]

Incompetent? He overran Europe and brought one of the world's super powers to its knees, taking out other countries like I take down cookies at a buffet, finally overcome only by the concerted effort of multiple industrialized nations.

Nobody says you need to like the guy, and he made plenty of mistakes (as all sides did), but he was far from incompetent. To label him as such we must conclude thus that the Allied forces were only very slightly less incompetent.

I don't think it's a small feat to take a country ravaged by war and put through the ringer and a mere three decades later have it rise so high it's once again threatening an entire continent.

He was obviously competent enough to get the ball rolling in a sort of brute force Mafia style way, but also crazy enough to get himself killed and his country destroyed. At times the average lifespan of mob members dips down to 2 or 3 years. If that's your idea of success and competence then I'm sure they have plenty of work available.

 

[bigwave2001]

wow, look if there were more manpower the war would have lasted longer in which time the V rocket would have finished being developed. Also more manpower would have been crucial to the battle of Britain which could have been a victory for the Luftwaffe. Also the people fighting for Britain would have had a lower morale because then there would be one huge horrible thing that Hitler hadn't done and that was one of the reasons that so many people hated Hitler. Also with the combined power of the V missile and the Luftwaffe Hitler would have been able to take over Britain. In which time he could have put his resources on stopping the war and with the V missile he could have easily defended his newly earned territory. Then as he saw the huge success the V missile was he could have passed it on to the Japs and with that on their ships they could have easily destroyed America. And today I would be writing in a forum about what if our great leader Hitler hated Jews in GERMAN.:awe: