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How Western civilization will fall

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PistachioByAzul

Diamond Member
Was reading through the magazine archives on adbusters.org. From this article there was something particularly striking, and simple.

"In a new way, America's decadence has made it vulnerable," a friend offers. Today, all is well, so keep your eye on today. Ten years ago the average personal savings rate in North America was about ten percent. Now it's zero. "If the Dow tumbles, people literally will not be able to tolerate a diminishment in their lifestyle. You'll see consumer rage, deeper and deeper debt problems as consumption patterns hold constant but income falls." Because, the thing is, the desire doesn't go away. The manufacture of desire won't slow down, even if the manufacture of everything else does.

 
forgive me for my ignorance... history is not my strongpoint

but wouldn't this be sort of similar to 20's-30's? decadent lifestyles -> crash? no fall of western civilization there....
 
the economy follows a pattern...it rises, then falls, then rises, then falls. it's a cycle. So 10 years ago it was in it's rise, now it's in its fall, but it'll rise again...i hope
 
haha richard.

yep, i called you richard.

anyway, like 3 lines is gojnna call us a failure.

well, i'm sitting here for the srest of the message to load up. but it , hey there it goes.\


one sec. processingl.

- 60 sec later

yep, so i looked at the stuff.

gay.

and well, the chick in the picuterue haha,m was hot.

so, i'm gonna say, you probalbly don't know what you are talkin gaobut. hehe,.


i'm to tired to make any kind of argumetn, so ill l3t you off easy tis time son;.



haha
 
Originally posted by: EngineNr9
Was reading through the magazine archives on adbusters.org. From this article there was something particularly striking, and simple.

"In a new way, America's decadence has made it vulnerable," a friend offers. Today, all is well, so keep your eye on today. Ten years ago the average personal savings rate in North America was about ten percent. Now it's zero. "If the Dow tumbles, people literally will not be able to tolerate a diminishment in their lifestyle. You'll see consumer rage, deeper and deeper debt problems as consumption patterns hold constant but income falls." Because, the thing is, the desire doesn't go away. The manufacture of desire won't slow down, even if the manufacture of everything else does.
Click to expand...
That personal savings rate is a composite figure. A good many people do indeed save their earnings. So long as aggregate investment remains positive, there is no macroeconomic problem, just lots of consumers with debt.
 
But each time it inflates bigger and bigger. With information technology and the globalization of business interests, more and more are we literally brainwashed and conditioned into being consumers, wasting our lives away pursuing empty material desires. This is what freedom is? Every "great" civilization has collapsed under it's own weight. At this rate we will absolutely not be an exception.
 
Originally posted by: EngineNr9
But each time it inflates bigger and bigger. With information technology and the globalization of business interests, more and more are we literally brainwashed and conditioned into being consumers, wasting our lives away pursuing empty material desires. This is what freedom is? Every "great" civilization has collapsed under it's own weight. At this rate we will absolutely not be an exception.
Click to expand...
You don't have to buy things. Ask anyone if he would be happy being poorer and tell me what kind of responses you get. Also no great civilization has been a liberal society with a democratic government.
 
how can we not be consumers? I tired of all these people who just bash on capitalism saying that it is evil and what not. It is a great system. There have to be two things, producers and consumers...so what's wrong with being a consumer.
 
Originally posted by: EngineNr9
But each time it inflates bigger and bigger. With information technology and the globalization of business interests, more and more are we literally brainwashed and conditioned into being consumers, wasting our lives away pursuing empty material desires. This is what freedom is? Every "great" civilization has collapsed under it's own weight. At this rate we will absolutely not be an exception.
Click to expand...

there is no doubt in my mind that we will collapse as well... i just don't think it's going to be any time soon. and what does this have to do with freedom? in any event, you are more or less free to do what you wish, what more can you ask for? if you feel you are wasting your life, then go do something else. nothing is stopping you but yourself.
 
Originally posted by: Scipionix
Originally posted by: EngineNr9
Was reading through the magazine archives on adbusters.org. From this article there was something particularly striking, and simple.

"In a new way, America's decadence has made it vulnerable," a friend offers. Today, all is well, so keep your eye on today. Ten years ago the average personal savings rate in North America was about ten percent. Now it's zero. "If the Dow tumbles, people literally will not be able to tolerate a diminishment in their lifestyle. You'll see consumer rage, deeper and deeper debt problems as consumption patterns hold constant but income falls." Because, the thing is, the desire doesn't go away. The manufacture of desire won't slow down, even if the manufacture of everything else does.
Click to expand...
That personal savings rate is a composite figure. A good many people do indeed save their earnings. So long as aggregate investment remains positive, there is no macroeconomic problem, just lots of consumers with debt.
Click to expand...

Translation: We're fzcked. Not only have small investors lost confidence in the markets (although they don't have much choice but to invest since most 401's require it) the foriegn investors are starting to pull the plug. We are running a 6 trillion dollar debt which consumes 20% of the federal reciepts just on intrest. How we'll pay that off is anyones guess. Bankruptcys are at a record high both personal and corporate. And jobs continue to be exported for cheaper goods to fill our appitites. Soon we'll have no jobs, still want stuff but can't make it, and lots of debt.🙁

 
well of course we will collapse at some point...nothing lasts forever. But i doubt it will be because of our current financial problems. It will most likely happen after some huge event...maybe World War III or something
 
Originally posted by: xirtam
Won't enough consumers in debt cause a macroeconomic problem?
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In a closed economy, savings = investment, so very low personal savings would be more of a problem. But most of that savings comes from firms, and our economy is not closed. Foreigners invest very heavily in the United States. So no, consumer debt in itself cannot cause a macroeconomic problem. What it can do is exacerbate the effects of economic contractions. If consumers have high debt loads they are more likely to cut back spending in downturns (although not as much as one would expect), thus weakening the economy further. You might see a lot of personal bankruptcies too. But consumer spending has been remarkably steady during our recent economic problems, with a lot of that being debt-financed, of course. Zero personal savings is in no way a good thing -- as I said it aggravates recessions -- and there is less investment and more consumption, but it's not a catastrophic problem.
 
And can some macroecon person explain to me how the US can continually have more money flowing out of this country to others for the last 25 years and not die eventually? The deficts in recent times have exploded ar'nt they getting richer while we get poorer? And soon won't I be paid the same a person in China with the same education?
 
Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Translation: We're fzcked. Not only have small investors lost confidence in the markets (although they don't have much choice but to invest since most 401's require it) the foriegn investors are starting to pull the plug. We are running a 6 trillion dollar debt which consumes 20% of the federal reciepts just on intrest. How we'll pay that off is anyones guess. Bankruptcys are at a record high both personal and corporate. And jobs continue to be exported for cheaper goods to fill our appitites. Soon we'll have no jobs, still want stuff but can't make it, and lots of debt.🙁
Click to expand...
Investor confidence is fickle, as you know, and often has little to do with actual economic activity. Sure, we have a six trillion dollar debt, making it under 60% of GDP. Ten years ago we had a four or five trillion dollar debt and a five or six trillion dollar economy, meaning the national debt was more like 80% to 100% of GDP. It would be nice to have very little national debt, but a debt on the order of the one we have now is not really that bad. Jobs being "exported" is a whole other issue, but it' s only certain industried in the manufacturing sector that do this, and besides, in the long run those who get laid off find jobs in other sectors. The end ain't here yet, not by a longshot. Just pay off those credit card balances.
 
You're right, the freedom thing is sort of a seperate issue that managed to work itself in there on the same train of thought. But "freedom" has become one of these mass-market words that rationalizes our overconsumption. That is to say, how free are we, when the system is geared to basically offer you no other choice than being just another drone of a shopper, programmed by ads in the non-stop flow of information we are bombarded with.
 
That is to say, how free are we, when the system is geared to basically offer you no other choice than being just another drone of a shopper, programmed by ads in the non-stop flow of information we are bombarded with.
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What other choice is there? Perhaps I'm missing some obvious alternative, but what are you gonna do besides shopping for things? I mean, they did back in the day with bartering and what not. Are you just gonna sit around? Maybe I'm just really confused
 
Only the Godless will fall. Just like Communism. Just like Budism. Otherwise, the constant exchange of things for things existed long before we got here and long after we are gone. It exists chemically, physically and supernaturally. In otherwords, regardless of how alarmist one feels towards Capitalism, it will prevail.

And thats the truth.
 
Originally posted by: Carbonyl
And can some macroecon person explain to me how the US can continually have more money flowing out of this country to others for the last 25 years and not die eventually? The deficts in recent times have exploded ar'nt they getting richer while we get poorer? And soon won't I be paid the same a person in China with the same education?
Click to expand...
No, you won't get paid the same as a person in China unless you happen to be an undocumented footwear and apparel factory worker. Wage convergence just doesn't seem to be happening. Our trade deficit is a sign of the strength of our economy, not of its weakness. It just means we want more than the domestic economy can produce, so we import stuff.
 
Originally posted by: EngineNr9
You're right, the freedom thing is sort of a seperate issue that managed to work itself in there on the same train of thought. But "freedom" has become one of these mass-market words that rationalizes our overconsumption. That is to say, how free are we, when the system is geared to basically offer you no other choice than being just another drone of a shopper, programmed by ads in the non-stop flow of information we are bombarded with.
Click to expand...
Oh knock that off, you can do whatever you want. I, for one, am very happy that we have all the benefits of material society, like sanitation, medicine, transportation, education, information exchange, etc.
 
Originally posted by: Stojakapimp
I agree...except for I think Communism will not fail. Communism is perfect
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😀

There is no longer ANY viable alternative to the combination of liberalism, democracy and a free economy. It's the only way that works. See Francis Fukuyama's The End of History and the Last Man for details.
 
How relevant are numbers? We've heard lots of numbers and "well, technically....."'s in the Enron hearings that basically serve to cloud the fact that anyone can see what's going on isn't right. Likewise, one only has to walk into one of the thousands of malls across the country, look around at all the frivolous stuff, observe the people, and realize that this is not good. Not even that, all you really need to do is examine your own consumption habits with the underlying question, how much do I really need?
 
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