How to succeed in US business

[ElFenix]

$2.65, right?

you're dragging the canadian average down.

 

[StageLeft]

you're dragging the canadian average down.

Heck, it was a trick question. What menu item costs $.60?!

 

[Double Trouble]

Why stop there? Why should the government get involved when someone's home is robbed who didn't have alarm? Or someone's wallet is stolen that's not chained to their belt? Damn stupid people, how dare they let themselves be taken advantage of by unscrupulous folks. The intent to rob is a constitutional right!

What you are talking about is breaking existing laws and government enforcing those laws. What companies these days seem to be doing is really just "gotcha! business". They set things up so they can essentially prey on their consumers with shady "gotcha!" type fees and tricks, but they stay within the laws. If they go outside the laws, there are avenues for redress.... but they generally don't. At that point, it falls on the consumer to punish companies that do that stuff. Hit them where it hurts, stop doing business with them..... but noooo, the consumers are simply too stupid for that.

 

[Double Trouble]

Ahh the good ole stock market. Im all for abolishing that as well. It causes more harm then good in my book. Their are other avenues if you want capitol to grow your business.

Ah really? Do tell me where you'd find a capital market like that, with the liquidity and features etc. I'd love to see that one.

 

[Double Trouble]

Only 42% of American adults surveyed could add the cost of two items on a menu (one cost 60 cents and the other cost $1.95) and then figure a 10% tip.

... and therein lies the real problem. You just can't protect people from their own stupidity, no matter how much you try.

 

[StageLeft]

... and therein lies the real problem. You just can't protect people from their own stupidity, no matter how much you try.

Longer school days, less time spent in the football stadium and more in front of a text book

 

[Double Trouble]

Longer school days, less time spent in the football stadium and more in front of a text book

That might help improve education to an extent, but I don't think that would change the fundamental problem of stupidity among the masses and lack of common sense. Education is always a good thing, but I don't think it will fix the issue.

 

[BoberFett]

That's what the laws, do though; without regulation there is no capacity to punish a wrong-doer because their action was not considered wrong by the law. We can't dismiss the power of psychology and marketing, which I feel on a visceral level increasingly "compels" people to do things. I must be right, there is an awful freaking lot of marketing thrown our way so it certainly does something.

Wrong. Regulation attempts to head off bad behavior before it happens. Simple criminal law could handle cheats and swindlers just fine.

 

[Double Trouble]

Wrong. Regulation attempts to head off bad behavior before it happens. Simple criminal law could handle cheats and swindlers just fine.

Exactly. There are statutes that cover fraud, theft and all sorts of other similar things. The problem is that many business are resorting to gotcha! fees instead of a good business model. They are not breaking any laws, just counting on consumers to do dumb things.

Overdraft fees are one of those. Technically, you don't have to ever have any overdraft fees. If the bank wants to charge some crazy amount like $100 for an overdraft, then the consumers should punish that bank and take their business elsewhere.... but they don't. Instead, they want the government to limit overdraft fees.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

What you are talking about is breaking existing laws and government enforcing those laws. What companies these days seem to be doing is really just "gotcha! business". They set things up so they can essentially prey on their consumers with shady "gotcha!" type fees and tricks, but they stay within the laws. If they go outside the laws, there are avenues for redress.... but they generally don't. At that point, it falls on the consumer to punish companies that do that stuff. Hit them where it hurts, stop doing business with them..... but noooo, the consumers are simply too stupid for that.

So regardless of any consumer stupidity, it's okay to intentionally conceal and deceive for the purpose of eliciting funds from individuals without their knowing consent, as long as it's not illegal. Gotcha.

 

[jackace]

I think a lot of this comes down to what I posted last week. No one person or group of people is held personally liable for the actions of the corporation so those running the corporation get a free pass to screw who ever they want with no personal repercussions.

 

[ebaycj]

qfmft

Holy lurker, batman !!!

 

[bamacre]

That's what the laws, do though; without regulation there is no capacity to punish a wrong-doer because their action was not considered wrong by the law. We can't dismiss the power of psychology and marketing, which I feel on a visceral level increasingly "compels" people to do things. I must be right, there is an awful freaking lot of marketing thrown our way so it certainly does something.

http://www.resellerratings.com

:sneaky:

 

[bamacre]

So regardless of any consumer stupidity, it's okay to intentionally conceal and deceive for the purpose of eliciting funds from individuals without their knowing consent, as long as it's not illegal. Gotcha.

What you are describing is fraud, and any "free market" advocate would support government involvement in matters of fraud.

 

[BoberFett]

Entrenched interests will use their lobbyists to change laws and cripple the new honest competitors. If that doesn't work, they will just outright purchase them and shut down/absorb them.

Which is why some of us say that regulation isn't as much about preventing big companies from doing wrong as it is a club with which entrenched corporations can keep competition out of the market.

 

[BoberFett]

In the "free market system" it will always be the best cheater who wins. Everybody knows this.

You couldn't be more wrong, you lying sack of shit.

 

[Double Trouble]

So regardless of any consumer stupidity, it's okay to intentionally conceal and deceive for the purpose of eliciting funds from individuals without their knowing consent, as long as it's not illegal. Gotcha.

Well duh. If something is not against the law, you can do it. It's not nice, and it might not ethical, but it's legal, and so they do it. Don't like it? Vote with your wallet.

 

[BoberFett]

Well duh. If something is not against the law, you can do it. It's not nice, and it might not ethical, but it's legal, and so they do it. Don't like it? Vote with your wallet.

"There oughta be a law!"

One of the most damaging phrases ever uttered.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

What you are describing is fraud, and any "free market" advocate would support government involvement in matters of fraud.

But then it's not fraud if it's buried in a ton of legalease and paperwork, it's merely fraud-ish, and in fact perfectly acceptable to some such activates apparently.

Well duh. If something is not against the law, you can do it. It's not nice, and it might not ethical, but it's legal, and so they do it. Don't like it? Vote with your wallet.

Or, I dunno, move to make such clearly unethical and exploitative things illegal as other similar things are? Oh noes, teh government interference!!1!

 

[HumblePie]

I have always agreed with this, but there are things that need to be pointed out.

The problems is always with both sides. Customers and business. However, more power resides in my opinion with the businesses than with consumers. I'll explain.

First, I'll use the example someone else posted of Cell Phone companies. Here's the rub. They ALL suck. As a consumer you have one of two choices. Either get screwed by a cell phone company or don't get a cell phone. However, if all consumers stopped buying cell phones, what exactly would that do? All it will tell those companies is that cell phones are profitable anymore and instead to look for something else they can sell and fleece us with. It does NOTHING to encourage better practices. The only way consumers can encourage that is when there is an actual viable competitor that is on the up-and-up to buy from. However, when all the alternatives are bad you are going to be screwed over. In the end, picking Verizon over AT&T or vice versa or whom ever just enforces that the company gaining the business did the "right" persuasion technique and the company losing the business needs to figure out how they can lie to gain back the customer.

This is why in big business collusion pays and pays big. This goes on to the next example. Someone reported GM as an example. The problem with his argument is he assumes that any other business attempt that tried to compete failed because consumers were sheep and just kept buying GM vehicles. This is the wrong conclusion. Ever heard of Henry Tucker? There have been other attempts buy new start of vehicle companies that tried to compete. Every time a rival appears, the bigger business does whatever legal strong arm techniques it can to squash the competition before it has a chance to actually be competitive. Every car Henry Tucker made was sold, but that wasn't enough to be financially buried by the big 3.

I'll use another example. Samsung and price fixing. Samsung proves that even if you get caught breaking the law, the penalty is more than offset by the capital gains made. Same thing Intel, Microsoft, and any other giant of industry has done. I am not saying they don't make good products, I am saying they stifle the competition whenever and however they can.

The only real option consumers have in an unregulated market is to not be consumers. Not spend money. But what would that do to the economy? On top of that, certain things people MUST spend money on. Food, water, shelter, and transportation are needed especially in todays modern world.

True unregulated or "free market" doesn't work. That just leads to cutthroat competition and who ever makes it to king of the hill does what they can to stay on top. Businesses need boundaries and laws. They also need to be enforced. Industries need standards to work within and consumers need to be made aware of what is right and wrong business practices.

Also of note, is the lack of enforcement for what laws we have in place. The adage "When the cats away the mice will play" has held the test of time for a reason. Even honest and "ethical" people when faced with losing to the competition that is getting ahead will adhere to the other time tested adage "If you can't beat them, join them." If you are faced with losing your business when being ethical when everyone else is making huge gains by not being so, even the most stalwart of businesses will eventually succumb. As another example, I know about a dozen businesses nearby that has the BBB sticker placed on their door. Yet, none of those are actually members of the BBB. The BBB also has no way of getting them to remove said stickers either. So businesses put those up and lie saying the are "honest" members of the BBB and scam the crap out of consumers. When consumers seek retribution through the BBB they find out nothing can really be done.

Then on top of that, when consumers DO try to stand up for their rights, doing so is a daunting task most of the time. Sure if you find lead paint in your kids toys, you will get every lawyer falling over itself to represent your case. But when the case is less clearcut and there isn't a potential for millions of victims and millions of dollars in winnings for lawyers, finding help is hard. Especially if they have to do real investigative work to win a case. A consumer may end up spending more money than they can afford to "win" a case. Not every consumer has the excess cash to go the litigation route based off mere "principles" to show a company what they did is wrong.


Yes, many consumers are dumb. Which goes with the third old adage I'll use here, "There's a sucker born every minute" because most people are usually so dumb they don't even realize they are being fleeced in the first place. Even if you are a smarter than average consumer, there is NO WAY any consumer knows absolutely everything about everything they spend money on. Think of what people typically buy in a year. Housing, cars, electronics, food, computers, entertainment, furniture, girl scout cookies, or whatever. Can anyone honestly say they know everything through and through about whatever they buy all the time? Can you honestly say as a consumer you have always purchased the "best" deal or wasn't ever screwed over even once? No way Jose.

I know that "free market" and less regulation only leads to businesses and corporations dictating what the consumer and buy and how. Not the other way around. I also know that I don't want government dictating what consumers should buy and how as well. There is always a fine balance, but as new ways to fleece America come along we need new ways to prevent it and enforcement of the rules.

Despite what people seem to claim, consumers never had much power and getting less all the time. Especially when government turns around and hands them money we are forced to give to the government. I.e. collecting our taxes to bailout companies who are imploding from their bad business practices.

 

[ebaycj]

I have always agreed with this, but there are things that need to be pointed out.

The problems is always with both sides. Customers and business. However, more power resides in my opinion with the businesses than with consumers. I'll explain.

First, I'll use the example someone else posted of Cell Phone companies. Here's the rub. They ALL suck. As a consumer you have one of two choices. Either get screwed by a cell phone company or don't get a cell phone. However, if all consumers stopped buying cell phones, what exactly would that do? All it will tell those companies is that cell phones are profitable anymore and instead to look for something else they can sell and fleece us with. It does NOTHING to encourage better practices. The only way consumers can encourage that is when there is an actual viable competitor that is on the up-and-up to buy from. However, when all the alternatives are bad you are going to be screwed over. In the end, picking Verizon over AT&T or vice versa or whom ever just enforces that the company gaining the business did the "right" persuasion technique and the company losing the business needs to figure out how they can lie to gain back the customer.

This is why in big business collusion pays and pays big. This goes on to the next example. Someone reported GM as an example. The problem with his argument is he assumes that any other business attempt that tried to compete failed because consumers were sheep and just kept buying GM vehicles. This is the wrong conclusion. Ever heard of Henry Tucker? There have been other attempts buy new start of vehicle companies that tried to compete. Every time a rival appears, the bigger business does whatever legal strong arm techniques it can to squash the competition before it has a chance to actually be competitive. Every car Henry Tucker made was sold, but that wasn't enough to be financially buried by the big 3.

I'll use another example. Samsung and price fixing. Samsung proves that even if you get caught breaking the law, the penalty is more than offset by the capital gains made. Same thing Intel, Microsoft, and any other giant of industry has done. I am not saying they don't make good products, I am saying they stifle the competition whenever and however they can.

The only real option consumers have in an unregulated market is to not be consumers. Not spend money. But what would that do to the economy? On top of that, certain things people MUST spend money on. Food, water, shelter, and transportation are needed especially in todays modern world.

True unregulated or "free market" doesn't work. That just leads to cutthroat competition and who ever makes it to king of the hill does what they can to stay on top. Businesses need boundaries and laws. They also need to be enforced. Industries need standards to work within and consumers need to be made aware of what is right and wrong business practices.

Also of note, is the lack of enforcement for what laws we have in place. The adage "When the cats away the mice will play" has held the test of time for a reason. Even honest and "ethical" people when faced with losing to the competition that is getting ahead will adhere to the other time tested adage "If you can't beat them, join them." If you are faced with losing your business when being ethical when everyone else is making huge gains by not being so, even the most stalwart of businesses will eventually succumb. As another example, I know about a dozen businesses nearby that has the BBB sticker placed on their door. Yet, none of those are actually members of the BBB. The BBB also has no way of getting them to remove said stickers either. So businesses put those up and lie saying the are "honest" members of the BBB and scam the crap out of consumers. When consumers seek retribution through the BBB they find out nothing can really be done.

Then on top of that, when consumers DO try to stand up for their rights, doing so is a daunting task most of the time. Sure if you find lead paint in your kids toys, you will get every lawyer falling over itself to represent your case. But when the case is less clearcut and there isn't a potential for millions of victims and millions of dollars in winnings for lawyers, finding help is hard. Especially if they have to do real investigative work to win a case. A consumer may end up spending more money than they can afford to "win" a case. Not every consumer has the excess cash to go the litigation route based off mere "principles" to show a company what they did is wrong.


Yes, many consumers are dumb. Which goes with the third old adage I'll use here, "There's a sucker born every minute" because most people are usually so dumb they don't even realize they are being fleeced in the first place. Even if you are a smarter than average consumer, there is NO WAY any consumer knows absolutely everything about everything they spend money on. Think of what people typically buy in a year. Housing, cars, electronics, food, computers, entertainment, furniture, girl scout cookies, or whatever. Can anyone honestly say they know everything through and through about whatever they buy all the time? Can you honestly say as a consumer you have always purchased the "best" deal or wasn't ever screwed over even once? No way Jose.

I know that "free market" and less regulation only leads to businesses and corporations dictating what the consumer and buy and how. Not the other way around. I also know that I don't want government dictating what consumers should buy and how as well. There is always a fine balance, but as new ways to fleece America come along we need new ways to prevent it and enforcement of the rules.

Despite what people seem to claim, consumers never had much power and getting less all the time. Especially when government turns around and hands them money we are forced to give to the government. I.e. collecting our taxes to bailout companies who are imploding from their bad business practices.

I nominate this for best post of all time.

Seriously, I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[StageLeft]

I nominate this for best post of all time.

Seriously, I couldn't have said it better myself.

Yes, sir, I liked it.

 

[woolfe9999]

Well duh. If something is not against the law, you can do it. It's not nice, and it might not ethical, but it's legal, and so they do it. Don't like it? Vote with your wallet.

Let's make this simple. Which is easier, criminalizing unethical business practices, or doing something, anything, to make the whole population of consumers gain say 20 IQ points? We regulate against unethical business practices because we *can*. We can't do anything about consumer stupidity.

- wolf

 

[ElFenix]

preston tucker, and i'm not entirely certain that the big 3 had anything to do with it. the SEC was on a witch hunt it seems.

 

[Greenman]

Rip off your customers.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.co...Guide/weston-4-reasons-we-get-ripped-off.aspx

I liked this article so I thought I'd post it. It sums up what I'm scared are becoming the dominant tactics to running a successful business in the US. And it's what I hear conservative-types supporting when they chant for less regulation and government involvement in business. Now granted, if consumers were more on the ball then maybe less regulation would be OK, but obviously they're not and the tricks are getting trickier. For whatever reason the growing trend of getting fleeced doesn't seem incentive enough to get them there.

And because it's related, here's a short clip of Elizabeth Warren talking about the banking fiasco, ripping folks off, and screwing up so big you get rewarded for it. Think of it as a training video for folks in the financial industry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2kfAr2h5NE&feature=player_embedded

I'm concervatve, a business owner, and all for consumer protection. There are far to many people that think it's ok to lie, cheat and steal as long as it's "just business".