How to raise money to build a prototype of a new engine design (Now with more PAINT)

[adlep]

You started with some rather lame insults, then you assumed quite a bit. All of your assumptions were wrong BTW. But if you want to send me your contact info, I'm sure my friend would be much better off getting legal assistance from a hot head such as you than the professional he's currently working with.

Good patent attorney is a must in such a case.

 

[Safeway]

Good patent attorney is a must in such a case.

As I said, I don't know the specifics, but from what was discussed in this thread, it sounded like he was wasting away his rights. It also sounds like the guy's friend isn't in touch with reality - thinking that he needs $5,000,000 capital.

 

[Bignate603]

As I said, I don't know the specifics, but from what was discussed in this thread, it sounded like he was wasting away his rights. It also sounds like the guy's friend isn't in touch with reality - thinking that he needs $5,000,000 capital.

After dealing with one set of people that were sure they had something that was going to revolutionize engines I can tell you that you're probably wasting your breath.

The group that I was stuck working with was basing everything on bad math and impossible design requirements. No matter what you told them they were always convinced that they were right and every other person in the industry was wrong. You could walk through the math with them agreeing at every step until you showed them the result, which they refused to believe.

 

[Lifted]

As I said, I don't know the specifics, but from what was discussed in this thread, it sounded like he was wasting away his rights. It also sounds like the guy's friend isn't in touch with reality - thinking that he needs $5,000,000 capital.

Who is not in touch with reality?

You: A lawyer who doesn't have the slightest bit of info on the engine other than 'it's an engine'.

My friend: An engineer of 30+ years who has designed and supervised the construction of many projects in the hundreds-of-millions of dollars, and who designed the thing and has thousands of pages of documentation, math, and all of the blueprints and specs needed to build it. Not only that, but the US government is willing to give him a ~$5 million grant in order to build it with the stipulation that a major car manufacturer sponsors it.

So without having any idea what this project is about, you feel you know more than an 3 decade career engineer and the U.S. Department of Energy. Before insinuating other people are "nut jobs", why don't you go take a look in the mirror, schmuck.

 

[Squisher]

5) Pointless ignition systems. I'll bet that most people here are young enough that they've never had to deal with adjusting points so you can limp to a mechanic and have them replaced.

My son looked at me when he rummaging around in the garage once and asked, "wtf is a dwell meter?"

 

[Howard]

Who is not in touch with reality?

You: A lawyer who doesn't have the slightest bit of info on the engine other than 'it's an engine'.

My friend: An engineer of 30+ years who has designed and supervised the construction of many projects in the hundreds-of-millions of dollars, and who designed the thing and has thousands of pages of documentation, math, and all of the blueprints and specs needed to build it. Not only that, but the US government is willing to give him a ~$5 million grant in order to build it with the stipulation that a major car manufacturer sponsors it.

So without having any idea what this project is about, you feel you know more than an 3 decade career engineer and the U.S. Department of Energy. Before insinuating other people are "nut jobs", why don't you go take a look in the mirror, schmuck.

And who's the one who's going to waste all their time with this shit? Bet you $100 he isn't going to get that $5 million grant.

 

[Bignate603]

Who is not in touch with reality?

You: A lawyer who doesn't have the slightest bit of info on the engine other than 'it's an engine'.

My friend: An engineer of 30+ years who has designed and supervised the construction of many projects in the hundreds-of-millions of dollars, and who designed the thing and has thousands of pages of documentation, math, and all of the blueprints and specs needed to build it. Not only that, but the US government is willing to give him a ~$5 million grant in order to build it with the stipulation that a major car manufacturer sponsors it.

So without having any idea what this project is about, you feel you know more than an 3 decade career engineer and the U.S. Department of Energy. Before insinuating other people are "nut jobs", why don't you go take a look in the mirror, schmuck.

Requiring private investment sponsorship or cost sharing is a method the government uses to weed out bad ideas without spending too much time or money to investigate into the merits of the actual invention. The idea is that if a sponsoring business that is respected in their field is willing to risk a significant amount of their own money on the program they must be fairly certain that they'll get it to work and see a significant improvement from it. If the idea isn't good enough to get a good sponsor to risk some cash then the government assumes that the idea wasn't a worthwhile investment and moves on to the next project.

What I'm saying is that for many government agencies or programs that give grants they tell almost everyone "Find a good sponsor willing to aid you". It doesn't mean that they've done any real analysis to see if the idea will really work.

Also, your engineer friend's construction background doesn't mean he can design an engine. Someone may be extremely skilled at managing a multi-million dollar construction project but that takes a different set of skills than you'll need to design an engine. Right off the bat, the fact that he's claiming a 300% improvement in efficiency is a red flag that his math isn't right.

 

[StageLeft]

This thread is cute but I don't think anybody here thinks Lifted's buddy has or ever will have anything like Lifted has described. I don't think Lifted is being deceitful so much as his pie in the sky friend lives, well, in the sky.

Given how long the ICE has been around and its current efficiency there's no way in God's earth his buddy alone has accomplished such an amazing feat of engineering when literally thousands of other engineers over many decades can do no better than eek out a percent here and there every couple of years. In any case, it would be such a coup it would literally be world changing and no legitimate vehicle manufacturer would only sign up with this incredible revolution if most of it was given to them per thoughts in first post, since if you walked down the street and got another to sign up the others would be out of business.

I'm also surprised that after decades of working on this thing and supervising hundreds of millions of dollar projects his friend is at such a loss that the query ultimately finds itself on AT Garage.

 

[Lifted]

Bet you $100 he isn't going to get that $5 million grant.

Go back and read the OP. That may help you realize how stupid this post was.

 

[Lifted]

Requiring private investment sponsorship or cost sharing is a method the government uses to weed out bad ideas without spending too much time or money to investigate into the merits of the actual invention. The idea is that if a sponsoring business that is respected in their field is willing to risk a significant amount of their own money on the program they must be fairly certain that they'll get it to work and see a significant improvement from it. If the idea isn't good enough to get a good sponsor to risk some cash then the government assumes that the idea wasn't a worthwhile investment and moves on to the next project.

What I'm saying is that for many government agencies or programs that give grants they tell almost everyone "Find a good sponsor willing to aid you". It doesn't mean that they've done any real analysis to see if the idea will really work.

Also, your engineer friend's construction background doesn't mean he can design an engine. Someone may be extremely skilled at managing a multi-million dollar construction project but that takes a different set of skills than you'll need to design an engine. Right off the bat, the fact that he's claiming a 300% improvement in efficiency is a red flag that his math isn't right.

Thanks Bignate. It's actually a good bit of that along with a healthy dose of cronyism/politics, which I explained to my buddy already. I told him he is much more likely to get this built looking for private capital, and he may go that route in the next few years.

 

[Lifted]

I'm also surprised that after decades of working on this thing and supervising hundreds of millions of dollar projects his friend is at such a loss that the query ultimately finds itself on AT Garage.

More assumptions. This thread of full of em.

My friend never asked me to go hunting for answers. I'm simply trying to lend him a hand with some fresh ideas for raising capital. Is the idea of helping out a friend so far beyond your comprehension? I find that pretty sad.

 

[Zenmervolt]

My son looked at me when he rummaging around in the garage once and asked, "wtf is a dwell meter?"

Tell him that it's a tool which, much like the Uni-Syn tool, is used by archaeologists to date toolboxes.

ZV

 

[StageLeft]

More assumptions. This thread of full of em.

My friend never asked me to go hunting for answers. I'm simply trying to lend him a hand with some fresh ideas for raising capital. Is the idea of helping out a friend so far beyond your comprehension? I find that pretty sad.

Ah, let me put it this way for you:

There is no way a guy who has "designed and supervised the construction of many projects in the hundreds-of-millions of dollars", who has designed a world-changing combustion engine with magnitudes more efficiency than is currently in production, who has been working on it for many, many years, but yet is still dicking around trying to figure out who the heck will give him $5M in an industry worth hundreds of billions each year. Does not add up.

Really, who are you trying to kid? Either he's blowing smoke up your ass, or you're blowing it up ours.

Does it not seem just a tiny bit strange to you that a technology that's been around since the 19th century, which receives only the most incremental of enhancements in efficiency over time, has been revolutionized by your buddy and despite designing and managing many huge projects he's too stupid to figure out where to get a few bucks for it (if the tech is even half as good as you claim he claims VCs would be beating down the door for even a tiny piece of this multi-billion dollar pie)? Get real, this is ridiculous. Please understand how this seems to everybody.

 

[Howard]

Go back and read the OP. That may help you realize how stupid this post was.

So you too understand the improbability of him realizing his dream?

 

[Bignate603]

Ah, let me put it this way for you:

There is no way a guy who has "designed and supervised the construction of many projects in the hundreds-of-millions of dollars", who has designed a world-changing combustion engine with efficiency that is physically impossible, who has been working on it for many, many years, but yet is still dicking around trying to figure out who the heck will give him $5M in an industry worth hundreds of billions each year. Does not add up.

Fixed. A 300% increase in efficiency for a heat engine would require you to break the laws of thermodynamics.

 

[JCH13]

Fixed. A 300% increase in efficiency for a heat engine would require you to break the laws of thermodynamics.

This seems about right. I'd be curious to see some PSFC numbers (power specific fuel consumption) and PV/TS diagrams and do a little math to see if they are plausible.

As for raising the capital, if the engine actually has legs (which it may or may not) he should look at licensing to technology/designs/theory to an engineering or automobile company (maybe even a venture capital company). One that has the resources to conduct proper due-diligence and either has, or knows how to raise the money. Basically he needs to find a company that starts other companies, but he is going to have to either share ownership or license it for anyone to do anything for him. SBIRs, as mentioned, are worth pursuing, but he'll probably get overrun by the big dogs for those or other grants. Though an SBIR lets him keep all rights, a Phase 1 would be about $50k-100k, and a Phase 2 would be $500k-750k, far short of his $5m goal.

5m is an insanely large amount of money to make a prototype engine, especially if most/all of the design work is already done. He might want to start with a more attainable fundraising goal. $100k-$200k would keep a professional machine shop busy for a year, full time, making parts for him. Just some friendly advice.

 

[Lifted]

So you too understand the improbability of him realizing his dream?

Illiteracy is not something you should be flaunting about and be proud of.

 

[jaha2000]

Fixed. A 300% increase in efficiency for a heat engine would require you to break the laws of thermodynamics.

This...

 

[Lifted]

This seems about right. I'd be curious to see some PSFC numbers (power specific fuel consumption) and PV/TS diagrams and do a little math to see if they are plausible.

As for raising the capital, if the engine actually has legs (which it may or may not) he should look at licensing to technology/designs/theory to an engineering or automobile company (maybe even a venture capital company). One that has the resources to conduct proper due-diligence and either has, or knows how to raise the money. Basically he needs to find a company that starts other companies, but he is going to have to either share ownership or license it for anyone to do anything for him. SBIRs, as mentioned, are worth pursuing, but he'll probably get overrun by the big dogs for those or other grants. Though an SBIR lets him keep all rights, a Phase 1 would be about $50k-100k, and a Phase 2 would be $500k-750k, far short of his $5m goal.

5m is an insanely large amount of money to make a prototype engine, especially if most/all of the design work is already done. He might want to start with a more attainable fundraising goal. $100k-$200k would keep a professional machine shop busy for a year, full time, making parts for him. Just some friendly advice.

Thanks JCH13, that's as close as anyone has actually come to answering my question and providing constructive feedback (a couple of posters above were helpful as well).

There is one thing everyone needs to get over - the $5m is what's required for a team of 10 - 15 and materials. I already stated back in the beginning of this thread that the project would take 2 years with a team, or 15 years on his own (with the help of certain specialists for key parts). These numbers you and a few others have speculated on do not factor in salary requirements of 15 engineers/others for 2 years - which is the largest chunk of the budget (3 - 4 million).

Anyway, all of this has nothing to do with my question on where to raise capital in the form of grants, etc., though I am glad to see so many people have such concern for the viability of his little project - means there's a ton of interest.

 

[StageLeft]

I am glad to see so many people have such concern for the viability of his little project - means there's a ton of interest.

It does, which is why the whole idea of this design of his is all but as yet no money is all the more fantastical. A little tweaking of this story and we can see it on snopes next to the miracle carburator http://www.snopes.com/autos/business/carburetor.asp .

 

[JCH13]

Thanks JCH13, that's as close as anyone has actually come to answering my question and providing constructive feedback (a couple of posters above were helpful as well).

There is one thing everyone needs to get over - the $5m is what's required for a team of 10 - 15 and materials. I already stated back in the beginning of this thread that the project would take 2 years with a team, or 15 years on his own (with the help of certain specialists for key parts). These numbers you and a few others have speculated on do not factor in salary requirements of 15 engineers/others for 2 years - which is the largest chunk of the budget (3 - 4 million).

Anyway, all of this has nothing to do with my question on where to raise capital in the form of grants, etc., though I am glad to see so many people have such concern for the viability of his little project - means there's a ton of interest.

Working out the numbers based on rough overhead rates of my company (a 9-person engineering firm) 4 million could keep about 16 engineers employed full-time for two years, plus 1mil left for materials, machining costs, computers, etc. 16 full-time engineers can engineer the shit out of an engine

 

[Howard]

Illiteracy is not something you should be flaunting about and be proud of.

Care to tell me why I'm any more illiterate than you are retarded?

 

[Lifted]

Working out the numbers based on rough overhead rates of my company (a 9-person engineering firm) 4 million could keep about 16 engineers employed full-time for two years, plus 1mil left for materials, machining costs, computers, etc. 16 full-time engineers can engineer the shit out of an engine

That's the idea.

 

[Zenmervolt]

There is one thing everyone needs to get over - the $5m is what's required for a team of 10 - 15 and materials. I already stated back in the beginning of this thread that the project would take 2 years with a team, or 15 years on his own (with the help of certain specialists for key parts). These numbers you and a few others have speculated on do not factor in salary requirements of 15 engineers/others for 2 years - which is the largest chunk of the budget (3 - 4 million).

That doesn't really add up either. If he already has it designed, why does he need a team of 15 engineers? If he already has it designed, all he needs is a couple of machinists to build a prototype. The only reason he'd need engineers would be if he hasn't actually designed anything but only has a general theory.

I think that's where everyone's seeing a disconnect between what is claimed and what is being requested.

ZV

 

[JCH13]

That doesn't really add up either. If he already has it designed, why does he need a team of 15 engineers? If he already has it designed, all he needs is a couple of machinists to build a prototype. The only reason he'd need engineers would be if he hasn't actually designed anything but only has a general theory.

I think that's where everyone's seeing a disconnect between what is claimed and what is being requested.

ZV

I think it's in the "90% done, 90% left to go" stage, where much of the engineering is detail work. Granted the devil is in the details, and it could kill the project if there is one little thing that won't line up. Fully detailing an engine, like designing the oil pump, oil passages, making an ECM solution, detailing, dimensioning, and tolerancing every drawing of every part, etc takes a lot of engineering hours, but are all solved problems other than the novel engine. 5 mil might be overkill, but not by a whole lot (now that I've actually thought about it).