How to enable NCQ in a new build?

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Ronin13

Senior member
Aug 5, 2001
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I'm about to build a new rig using these components:

ASUS P5GD1 Pro with 915P chipset with ICH6R controller
P4 540J 3.2 GHz
2x512Mb PC3200 Geil value RAM
Maxtor Diamondmax 10 200GB SATA harddrive, 8Mb buffer
Pioneer DVR 109
Leadtek PX6800, 256Mb
Antec SLK-2650 BQE
Windows XP Home

Does anyone know how I go about enabling NCQ?

According to this article, something called AHCI must be enabled prior to OS installation for NCQ to work, and if it isn't, you must reinstall the OS and during that, install AHCI from a floppy.

Does that mean a floppy with AHCI drivers(?) is the only way to get NCQ, even when installing the OS for the first time, or do I have a 'one shot' chance of enabling AHCI in the BIOS before that first time OS install?

According to Intel I need some form of 'Intel Application Accelerator version 4.0 or later' to get NCQ.

Reading through these links, I have found that the 'plain' 'Intel Application Accelerator doesn't support the newer 900 series chipsets, but that the new Intel Application Accelerator for RAID, called 'Intel Matrix Storage Technology', does.

But checking the System Requirements, they list 'Two Serial ATA hard drives'.

So since this is a single SATA disk setup, do I still want/need the 'Intel Matrix Storage Technology'?

In short, given the above setup, how do I enable NCQ?
 
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Ronin13

Senior member
Aug 5, 2001
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I continued my research and found that the 'Intel Matrix Storage Technology' is required for NCQ, even for single disk setups.

I've also put together the parts and started on the OS install, after configuring SATA to AHCI in the BIOS (which accurately detects my Maxtor drive).

But when I come to the part where it says 'Press enter to install Windows now', I'm told that no harddrive is found.

I'm guessing that this means that you cannot install to a AHCI configured SATA disk, without installing the Intel Application Accelerator from a floppy during/prior to the Windows installation.

Can anybody confirm this?

I just find it strange and cumbersome that a brand new technology like NCQ should be utterly dependent on a legacy device such as a floppy drive (which I haven't installed in this rig...)

 
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stevty2889

Diamond Member
Dec 13, 2003
7,036
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You will need to install the drivers for the SATA contoller if you are getting the no hard drive found message. Put them on a floppy and press F6 when prompted by the XP installation.
 
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Ronin13

Senior member
Aug 5, 2001
374
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76
Originally posted by: stevty2889
You will need to install the drivers for the SATA contoller if you are getting the no hard drive found message. Put them on a floppy and press F6 when prompted by the XP installation.
Click to expand...
I thought as much, and have already downloadet the file (aptly named 'F6_floppy').

Now, I'm aware that NCQ doesn't make that much of a difference for the average user and I mainly wanted to enable it just for the sake of doing so (as well as for the learning process of getting it to work), since it is supported by the chipset as well as the hard drive.

I also know that a few benchmarks have gotten lower results with NCQ enabled, so do you believe I'm better off just staying clear of it?

Or do you think that getting NCQ would be worth the hassle of disconnecting a floppy drive from another rig and temporarely hooking it up to this one?
 
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Ronin13

Senior member
Aug 5, 2001
374
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Originally posted by: Ronin13
Now, I'm aware that NCQ doesn't make that much of a difference for the average user and I mainly wanted to enable it just for the sake of doing so (as well as for the learning process of getting it to work), since it is supported by the chipset as well as the hard drive.

I also know that a few benchmarks have gotten lower results with NCQ enabled, so do you believe I'm better off just staying clear of it?

Or do you think that getting NCQ would be worth the hassle of disconnecting a floppy drive from another rig and temporarely hooking it up to this one?
Click to expand...
What do you think?



 
Gamingphreek

Gamingphreek

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
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NCQ does make a difference, especially if you have multiple things going at once because it organizes the task. So instead of going around the HDD once to get a piece of data and then when another one is located on the opposite side of where you end uop it goes around and queues these and hits both.

-Kevin
 
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Turkey22

Senior member
Nov 28, 2001
840
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So far the only instance that NCQ makes a noticable difference in performance is with a dual core cpu. And then only in certain apps (probably the same ones that get a benefit from the dual core alone). I was thinking the article was even right here on anand... maybe it was on tomshardware or xbitlabs (it was on Intel dual core performance and they stumbled across this when using one setup with older drives that died and the new setup had ncq). However as far as I can tell it doesn't decrease performance so why not have it ready for when you do upgrade.
 
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TexDotCom

Senior member
Mar 21, 2000
367
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Yes, NCQ, along with its performance advantages, was discussed "right here on AnandTech":

CLICK HERE

Hope this article is helpful in your decision-making process.
 
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Ronin13

Senior member
Aug 5, 2001
374
0
76
Originally posted by: TexDotCom
Yes, NCQ, along with its performance advantages, was discussed "right here on AnandTech":

CLICK HERE

Hope this article is helpful in your decision-making process.
Click to expand...
I actually just finished reading that article a few minutes ago! (But thanks for the link anyway.)

Even though they don't really address the difference between the same drives with and without NCQ in their conclusion, it seems from the bencmarks that there's is no real benefit to be had from NCQ at this time.

In the Doom 3 Level Loading Performance test, the Diamondmax 10 is actually 22.5% slower with NCQ than without!

So this time around I'll leave it off.

 
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imported_Phil

Diamond Member
Feb 10, 2001
9,837
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Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
NCQ does make a difference, especially if you have multiple things going at once because it organizes the task. So instead of going around the HDD once to get a piece of data and then when another one is located on the opposite side of where you end uop it goes around and queues these and hits both.

-Kevin
Click to expand...

For the average home user desktop PC, or even a high-end desktop PC, it makes no difference.

The article that TexDotCom linked to shows that in some cases, it decreases performance.
 
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aatf510

Golden Member
Nov 13, 2004
1,811
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Originally posted by: Ronin13
ASUS P5GD1 Pro with 915P chipset with ICH6R controller
P4 540J 3.2 GHz
2x512Mb PC3200 Geil value RAM
Maxtor Diamondmax 10 200GB SATA harddrive, 8Mb buffer
Pioneer DVR 109
Leadtek PX6800, 256Mb
Antec SLK-2650 BQE
Windows XP Home
Click to expand...

Get the 16MB 250GB Maxtor Diamondmax 10, if not I think you are better off with a seagate 7200.8.
As for NCQ, I always think that it's can be enable in the BIOS,
 
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Ronin13

Senior member
Aug 5, 2001
374
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76
Originally posted by: toattett
Originally posted by: Ronin13
ASUS P5GD1 Pro with 915P chipset with ICH6R controller
P4 540J 3.2 GHz
2x512Mb PC3200 Geil value RAM
Maxtor Diamondmax 10 200GB SATA harddrive, 8Mb buffer
Pioneer DVR 109
Leadtek PX6800, 256Mb
Antec SLK-2650 BQE
Windows XP Home
Click to expand...

Get the 16MB 250GB Maxtor Diamondmax 10, if not I think you are better off with a seagate 7200.8.
As for NCQ, I always think that it's can be enable in the BIOS,
Click to expand...
I've already bought the parts and build the rig, installed the OS and am now in the process of installing drivers, etc.

I actually wanted to get the 16MB 200GB version which was available here (in Denmark) when I was making my list, but it had disappeared at the time I ordered, so due to budget concerns I went with the one I got.

What I learned from this build was that you cannot enable NCQ (with this particular setup) without going the 'F6 Floppy' route, as the OS wouldn't install to the hard disk when it was configured in the BIOS as AHCI (a prerequisite for NCQ).

So I had to set it up as normal IDE to install Windows, after which I went back to the BIOS and tried to change the setting to AHCI (not to enable NCQ as I knew that wouldn't be possible), just to see if it could be done. It couldn't. (Well, it could, but Windows wouldn't load properly after that.)

Also, I'm not able to install the Intel Application Accelerator due to 'incompatible hardware'. I'm not sure why, but I suspect it's because I only have one disk in this rig.

(The new version of Intel Application Accelerator that supports the 900 series chipset is also called 'Intel Matrix Storage Technology' and sometimes lists 2 (SATA?) disks as a prerequisite. But then again, I've read that the 'Intel Matrix Storage Technology' is required to get NCQ on a single disk as well, so it's all a bit confusing...)

If anyone has a firm grasp of how this stuff works, I would be grateful to have them continue my education on the subject :)
 
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Ronin13

Senior member
Aug 5, 2001
374
0
76
I didn't go the F6_Floppy route, as I hadn't installed a floppy drive in this rig and after reading the article on Anandtech that (among other things) compared the performance from a Diamondmax 10 with and without NCQ (scroll up for links), my own conclusion was that NCQ wasn't worth it at this time.

As with regards to me now not being able to set up my SATA drive to AHCI (it's configured as standard IDE), someone in the Storage Review forum told me I could set it to IDE, install the OS and then change it to AHCI after that. But like I said in a post above, I can't enable AHCI, nor install Intel Application Accelerator at this time.

Currently the SATA drive is set to AUTO in most of the BIOS options, but seems to be running PIO Mode 4 and UDMA5, which I believe are the fatests IDE settings.

Would there be any performance benefit of (somehow) configuring the SATA drive as AHCI instead? (Considering I don't want to enable NCQ.)
 
C

ChicagoPCGuy

Senior member
Dec 11, 2004
361
0
0
Originally posted by: jdogg707
Originally posted by: Ronin13
Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
Wait, you can't use NCQ with AMD procs and chipsets?
Click to expand...
I believe that the nForce4 chipset has support for NCQ...
Click to expand...

As well as the nForce 3 250.
Click to expand...


The nForce3 250 chipset does NOT have native NCQ support. Only the nForce4 Ultra or SLI.
 
C

ChicagoPCGuy

Senior member
Dec 11, 2004
361
0
0
Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
NCQ does make a difference, especially if you have multiple things going at once because it organizes the task. So instead of going around the HDD once to get a piece of data and then when another one is located on the opposite side of where you end uop it goes around and queues these and hits both.

-Kevin
Click to expand...


As others said before me, NCQ either has no impact on performance or can actually cause performance loss in a desktop environment. NCQ and/or TCQ is useful for networked server environments.
 
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imported_JoJo

Junior Member
May 1, 2004
5
0
0
I have an 300gb SATA-II Maxtor 10 and i noticed the sata150 version of this drive has
also NCQ.
What i wonder is whether this SATA-I or SATA-II or SATA150 or SAS isnt all the same..
coz according to maxtor they all have NCQ and they all do sata150.
The only difference i found is the material its made off.
Unless you have a huge dbase running on it or a major server, u dont need NCQ as it
will slow your computer down. A desktop or game rig won't create as much traffic for it
to be of any use.
The sata150 capability is something else. This speeds up things a lot.
For example : a SATA I or II controller on a PCI bus, it will never get any faster than this
PCI which is shared also among other cards (nic,sound,etc..) and does only 133mb/s
The only sata-controllers that will do the max of 150mb/s is the intel build-in chipsetcontroller which is connected directly to the chipset and a controller on a pci-express 1-16x port.
So if i am correct it will do serial ATA connection on a serial ATA interface with a SCUSI commandset and layout and the controller has only master-ports like a raidcontroller.
My guess is that they put a lot of these technologies together and make it like its something new, while it is just a cheap-ass version of LSA-SCUSI with serial interface instead of a parallel.
The 300GB maxtor 10 SATA-II 16mb buffer drive does 120mb/s in burst mode.
so two of these drives will do max of the sata150 interface if it is connected on a chipset sata-controller. I found somewhere that the difference between sata-I and sata-II is
a faster speed of 3gb/s on a sata-II instead of 1.5gb/s on a sata-I.
Since i been unable to use my sil3114r controller (as a windowsupdate of that resulted in a big crash) i cant do any speedcomparrisons. This controller is attached to a pci-bus,so how on earth is it going to do 3gb/s ?
I really like to know what the plan is with this standards and what do we customers gain of it.
Windows XP SP2 is also bugging as hell and all this stuff might work well on this new longhorn build. Windows XP SP2 lacks ACPI2.0 support which is needed for this new technologies. It only supports the 64 bit proc for now.
Now when do we get solid state drives ? :p
 
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