How to drive a stick? **Downshift or Brake?**

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: FrustratedUser
When slowing down:
Usually engine braking is good. It has nothing to do with the clutch as someone else said. Combine engine breaking with normal breaking. Your driving will be smoother this way and it is not harmful to the clutch or anything else (unless you shift to 2'nd at 100mph).

Engine braking is NOT the issue. The issue is whether to downshift through all the gears as you come to a stop. You will notice that I advocate combining engine braking with the service brakes, but I discourage downshifting through every gear while stopping. Downshifting through the gears requires that you cycle the clutch at least once for each shift. Every time the clutch is cycled, it wears. Ergo, downshifting through the gears when stopping wears the clutch more. It's simple logic and knowledge of how a transmission works. Plus, as I pointed out, unless you're double clutching you're wearing your synchros, and unless you're rev-matching you are shocking the transmission when you engage the clutch (as well as increasing clutch wear).

ZV

 

[FrustratedUser]

Originally posted by: Crazyfool
Gearing down versus hitting the brake.. which is cheaper, a new transmission or a set of brakes?

It does not harm the transmission, unless you completely fsck up and go down to low.

 

[MikeMike]

learn where the shift point is in ur car, and you wont have to use the clutch except for first gear, and downshifting

 

[FrustratedUser]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: FrustratedUser
When slowing down:
Usually engine braking is good. It has nothing to do with the clutch as someone else said. Combine engine breaking with normal breaking. Your driving will be smoother this way and it is not harmful to the clutch or anything else (unless you shift to 2'nd at 100mph).

Engine braking is NOT the issue. The issue is whether to downshift through all the gears as you come to a stop. You will notice that I advocate combining engine braking with the service brakes, but I discourage downshifting through every gear while stopping. Downshifting through the gears requires that you cycle the clutch at least once for each shift. Every time the clutch is cycled, it wears. Ergo, downshifting through the gears when stopping wears the clutch more. It's simple logic and knowledge of how a transmission works. Plus, as I pointed out, unless you're double clutching you're wearing your synchros, and unless you're rev-matching you are shocking the transmission when you engage the clutch (as well as increasing clutch wear).

ZV

OK, I agree. It is not necessary to go through all gears. I have to disagree with the wear of the syncros. Double clutching has little or no effect since syncronized gearboxes were introduced half a century or so ago.

 

[FrustratedUser]

Originally posted by: nourdmrolNMT1
learn where the shift point is in ur car, and you wont have to use the clutch except for first gear, and downshifting

That is by far the worst advice so far in this thread.
:frown:

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: bolido2000
Why would anyone need to double clutch nowadays?? If you want to downshift to accelerate faster just do rev-matching (blip throttle to increase RPM before downshifting)

Double-clutching makes things much, much smoother when executed properly, even on a full-synchromesh transmission. With a well-done double-clutch I can engage first gear at 20 miles per hour and the gear lever glides into place like butter. I have never once driven a stick shift that did not shift much better when double-clutched.

Furthermore, your definition of rev-matching leaves much to be desired. True rev-matching is matching the engine speed to the speed of the transmission input shaft before re-engaging the clutch. For example, say you know that in second gear your engine turns 3,500 RPM at 35 mph and you are downshifting from 3rd to 2nd at 35 mph. To rev-match, you will take the disengage the clutch and hold engine RPMs at 3,500 when you re-engage the clutch after having selected 2nd gear. If you are holding the engine at the proper RPM for your speed in the new gear, the shift will be imperceptible.

ZV

 

[Conky]

Originally posted by: FrustratedUser

Originally posted by: Crazyfool
Gearing down versus hitting the brake.. which is cheaper, a new transmission or a set of brakes?

It does not harm the transmission, unless you completely fsck up and go down to low.

OK, which is cheaper? An engine or a set of brakes?

 

[Marshallj]

Originally posted by: FrustratedUser
I have to disagree with the wear of the syncros. Double clutching has little or no effect since syncronized gearboxes were introduced half a century or so ago.

My view is halfway in between yours and Zens.


I aagree that there's no use to double clutch in a car with synchros, but it does wear them. But the time it takes to wear them is pretty damn long. My last Z was driven very hard and it had 186,500 miles on it. And even then, the engine/tranny/synchros were fine, but the frame was rusted out.

 

[m2kewl]

LOLyourface - practice makes perfect. my advice, half hour in the parking lot, then a hour a day; you should pass the novice stage

if i'm driving in bumper to bumper traffic (nyc rush hour), i'll just use the brakes exclusively. in mild/highway driving, i'd downshift and rev-match. i rarely need to double clutch.

 

[Marshallj]

I never bother with double clutching or rev matching. If the synchros wear out, I'll just replace them.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: FrustratedUser

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: FrustratedUser
When slowing down:
Usually engine braking is good. It has nothing to do with the clutch as someone else said. Combine engine breaking with normal breaking. Your driving will be smoother this way and it is not harmful to the clutch or anything else (unless you shift to 2'nd at 100mph).

Engine braking is NOT the issue. The issue is whether to downshift through all the gears as you come to a stop. You will notice that I advocate combining engine braking with the service brakes, but I discourage downshifting through every gear while stopping. Downshifting through the gears requires that you cycle the clutch at least once for each shift. Every time the clutch is cycled, it wears. Ergo, downshifting through the gears when stopping wears the clutch more. It's simple logic and knowledge of how a transmission works. Plus, as I pointed out, unless you're double clutching you're wearing your synchros, and unless you're rev-matching you are shocking the transmission when you engage the clutch (as well as increasing clutch wear).

ZV

OK, I agree. It is not necessary to go through all gears. I have to disagree with the wear of the syncros. Double clutching has little or no effect since syncronized gearboxes were introduced half a century or so ago.

If you use the synchros, you wear them. It's that simple. Double-clutching will prolong the life of the synchros. Granted, it's not necessary in the sense that your transmission will die without it and granted that most synchros will last longer than you'd ever need them to. Still, the fact that double-clutching does reduce wear on the synchros is inescapeable, as is the fact that more abruptly one shifts, the faster the synchros will wear. Remember, the synchro is, in essense, very little more than a brake band on the transmission input shaft.

ZV

EDIT: I should note that the Porsches I own are infamous for having weak synchros (the 914 has 1st and 2nd gear synchroes completely worn, and the 2nd gear synchro on the 924S is getting flaky thanks to speed shifting by previous owners).

 

[WinkOsmosis]

Don't bother with downshifting to engine brake and double clutching and all that crap, at least not right now. Rev matching comes naturally though, because you instinctively want to shift as smoothly as possible.

 

[amishhonda]

Originally posted by: nourdmrolNMT1
learn where the shift point is in ur car, and you wont have to use the clutch except for first gear, and downshifting

uh right, I've been driving tractors since I was 6 and a stick shift pickup since I was 12 and I'm quite certain that no one could do that more than 25% of the time without grinding gears and that = short tranny life

 

[Excelsior]

I dont know how my dad drove his 911, Ill ask him tommorow. Eitherway, when I was learning on our Passat, I just assumed to go to neutral and use the brakes straight up. But after asking him, he said it doesn't necessarily matter. And yes, not through each gea..more like..5th...3rd....1st or neutral. Very smooth. OH well, what the hell do I know.

 

[Jmman]

I learned way back when in a little Mazda sedan that happened to have one of the first rotary engines. That little SOB would light up the tires at a moment's notice. I felt like such an idiot...... Lesson number one....let out the clutch slowly....

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: amishhonda

Originally posted by: nourdmrolNMT1
learn where the shift point is in ur car, and you wont have to use the clutch except for first gear, and downshifting

uh right, I've been driving tractors since I was 6 and a stick shift pickup since I was 12 and I'm quite certain that no one could do that more than 25% of the time without grinding gears and that = short tranny life

Sure. No-one. Only every bloody semi driver who has ever lived. I've done that (on beater cars, never on a car that had anything resembling life left in it) and I have never once ground the gears on a clutchless upshift. I'm about 50%/50% on clutchless downshifts.

ZV

 

[FrustratedUser]

Originally posted by: Crazyfool

Originally posted by: FrustratedUser

Originally posted by: Crazyfool
Gearing down versus hitting the brake.. which is cheaper, a new transmission or a set of brakes?

It does not harm the transmission, unless you completely fsck up and go down to low.

OK, which is cheaper? An engine or a set of brakes?

I don't see the point of the question. What makes you think the engine will go bad when engine braking?
Ofcourse a set of brakes is cheaper than an engine but that is a moot point since there is no harm in engine braking.
If you DO manage to go down to low you've done something really wrong and shouldn't drive a car in the first place.'

Those errors are:

Having no clue of the shift pattern of the car.
Forced the car into 1'st gear which is usually impossible since 1'st gear is blocked going over a certain speed.
Speeding. How so? Well most cars can reach 60 mph (or close) so even shifting into 2'nd won't do much harm. How about 75mph you think? Well, who shifts to 2'nd going 75mph anyway? Except really retarded or careless people nobody does that.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Excelsior
I dont know how my dad drove his 911, Ill ask him tommorow. Eitherway, when I was learning on our Passat, I just assumed to go to neutral and use the brakes straight up. But after asking him, he said it doesn't necessarily matter. And yes, not through each gear..more like..5th...3rd....1st or neutral. Very smooth. OH well, what the hell do I know.

You sound as though you know a good deal actually.

I was just thinking about the way I used to shift when I was first learning (clutch out, select gear, clutch in, no rev-matching/double-clutching, lurchy as all hell) and I didn't think it would be a great idea for a novice stick-shift driver to make a habit of going down through the gears without getting more practice under his belt.

As I've said, it can be done (via double-clutching and rev-matching), but it takes some time to get those things right and until then it's not a great idea (IMO) to make extra gear-changes.

ZV

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: FrustratedUser
Forced the car into 1'st gear which is usually impossible since 1'st gear is blocked going over a certain speed.

Actually, it's not blocked out by any sort of sensor means, it's just blocked by a phenomenon commonly known as "lock out". Ever tried to shift gears when the car is off and had it not want to go into one of the gears? That's the same thing that happens to first at higher speeds. That can happen with any gear if the differential between input and output speed is great enough. That first gear "lock out" is one of the things that double-clutching can overcome (hence my example of double-clutching allowing me to shift smoothly into first gear at 20 mph).

ZV

 

[FrustratedUser]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: FrustratedUser
Forced the car into 1'st gear which is usually impossible since 1'st gear is blocked going over a certain speed.

Actually, it's not blocked out by any sort of sensor means, it's just blocked by a phenomenon commonly known as "lock out". Ever tried to shift gears when the car is off and had it not want to go into one of the gears? That's the same thing that happens to first at higher speeds. That can happen with any gear if the differential between input and output speed is great enough. That first gear "lock out" is one of the things that double-clutching can overcome (hence my example of double-clutching allowing me to shift smoothly into first gear at 20 mph).

ZV

Thanks for clarifying. That was what I meant.

 

[Ultima]

Originally posted by: LOLyourFace
so when does a car stall? what should you avoid? how long would it take to get manual driving become your second nature? days, weeks?

A car stalls if the RPM's go too low. Generally, the car will not stall if you're already rolling and you just take your foot off the gas. It may stall if you brake or let out the clutch too fast in 1st gear. In low gears at low speeds, stalling will bring the car to an abrupt halt but I think that in high gears, stalling will just coast the car. I might be wrong though.

If you've already been driving an automatic car for a while, driving a standard is much easier than if you're new to driving cars, period. At least thats the way it was for me.

 

[Ultima]

Originally posted by: Moralpanic

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Excelsior
When you are slowing down (stop sign or red light) you can either downshift (most reccomended) by obviously repeating the previous process just in reverse; or you can put it in neutral and brake. Im a newb though, so just get advice from the many other people who really know how to drive.

DO NOT DOWNSHIFT TO SLOW THE CAR DOWN! Very hard on the transmission (especially the synchros). Proper procedure for slowing down is to leave the car in whatever gear you have selected and just hit the brakes. When you have slowed to the point where RPM's are at about 1,500, push in the clutch and move the gear lever into neutral while you continue braking to a stop.

Once you have stopped, either put the car in first with the clutch pedal fully depressed, or take your foot off the clutch and wait until you are going to start again to engage first gear. There are differing schools of thought on that. One school says it is best to sit stopped with your foot off the clutch and the gear lever in neutral because it saves wear on the clutch throw-out bearing that way. The other school (which is the one I follow) says that it's easier to leave it in gear with the clutch disengaged (allows quicker take-off from a stop light and you're less likely to roll if you get rear-ended). The second school of thought also notes that any reputable clutch shop will always replace the throw-out bearing when they replace the clutch so there is no real point in "saving" wear on the throw-out bearing since there is virtually no chance that a street-car's throw-out bearing will wear out before the clutch.

Hmmm i thought one of the benefits of driving stick was downshifting to a stop. It's especially useful in snowy conditions.

I've never heard that. That could be downright dangerous in a RWD car. You downshift, braking on only the rear-wheels, and fishtail. In an FWD you understeer. I don't see how downshifting could ever be better than regular braking in those conditions. One thing that I have heard is to start off in 2nd gear in icy conditions, as it will be easier to take off without spinning the wheels.

 

[Ultima]

Originally posted by: Syringer
Can someone explain, as was asked earlier, at what point does a car stall? And what causes grinding?

Grinding is letting out clutch before the gear is engaged.. or trying to go from 5-1 or any to reverse which obviously you can't do

 

[Ultima]

Originally posted by: nourdmrolNMT1
learn where the shift point is in ur car, and you wont have to use the clutch except for first gear, and downshifting

and you'll need a new transmission by 5000 miles.

 

[cressida]

ah too many rules, I don't know which one to follow!