How to design a garage with ventilation for remote start?

[Zargon]

There have been studies posted that seem to indicate it doesn't help much because there is still a lack of fresh air exchange.

I think that is the objection. It doesn't actually help.

That's why I added the ceiling fan in my Rube Goldberg setup.

a 'whole house fan' would actually push air out through the roof


I have my old furnace fan that I am planning to do that with, so I can run stuff in the garage in the winter while doing maintenance etc and not die

 

[desy]

I live in Canada and not the warm part like Toronto or BC, blinding prairie cold. I have a block heater and have had interior warmers
A block heater makes almost zero increase in warmth happening quicker because all it does is raise the temp a little so the car turns over easier. The actually combustion of fuel is waaaay hotter and still it takes several minutes to make a difference.

Almost everybody I've known who have heated garages quit using heat because it accelerated rust, its something we talk about around here, regularly. Its not drier when the frozen ice/snow melts and rust is a chemical reaction that like all respond to heat as a catalyst.

 

[Kaido]

what is your objection to opening the garage when you remote start the car?

1. It's not convenient. You can't just whip the keyfob out of your pocket & start your car with that system; now you have to go over and hit a switch, wherever that is located in the house. Plus, you have to remember to do something extra, which doesn't guarantee 100% success (in case you forget to do it).

2. It's still not safe. Per the study linked above:

Is it safe to briefly warm up a car in an open garage?

No. In an Iowa State study, warming up a vehicle for only two minutes with the overhead door open raised CO concentrations in the garage to 500 ppm. Ten hours after the car had been backed out of the garage, there was still a measurable concentration of CO in the garage. Persons working in the garage for a long period of time would breath a dangerous amount of carbon monoxide.

So it'd be easy to forget, it'd be a small hassle because you'd have to walk over to the switch instead of just pulling the fob out of your pocket, and starting it up even with the garage door open still causes dangerous levels if you're working on something in the shop within 10 hours of starting the car (warming it up for only 2 minutes!) with the overhead door open.

 

[Kaido]

I believe he is trying to imply that the salt from the roads and the warmer temperatures in a heated garage are more ample conditions for rust than in an unheated garage. However, if you live in an area with snow and road salt, rust is pretty much a given. You can be as careful as you'd like and wash your car every time the salt is gone, but it is going to rust eventually.

Yeah, heat & rust is a good point & adds an additional variable to the discussion.

 

[Kaido]

There have been studies posted that seem to indicate it doesn't help much because there is still a lack of fresh air exchange.

Yeah, but even with a fresh air exchange, you'd have to do one of the following:

1. Have it running 24/7
2. Have it linked to a switch (wall switch or some kind of custom keyfob-relay system)
3. Have it linked to an automatic garage-capable CO detector that kicks off the air exchange system when dangerous levels are detected

The glaring issue with that is that then you're relying on an active system to save you. If the power goes out, if the automatic systems fail, if you forget to press the button, etc. then you're still hosed.

I don't think there's a good (easy) method to accomplish this task available right now.

 

[smackababy]

Kaido, you and others continue to use this study when it is not only incredibly old (published in 1997), but provides no sources or representation of data. "there was still a measurable concentration of CO in the garage." That gives zero information as to what it was. 1ppm? 100ppm?

The average ppm of CO in Mexico City is between 100-200. That is outside and people continue to live there just fine.

If you are afraid of accidentally running your car for a prolonged period of time from a closed garage attached to the house AND having enough CO seep into the house to present a hazard to your house, put a CO detector right inside the door leading to the garage. Plain and simple. It doesn't vent the garage or start up a Rube Goldberg machine to help, but it will notify you before toxic levels reach anywhere else.

This isn't a task that needs to be accomplished. It is an imaginary problem by helicopter parents.

 

[LTC8K6]

Yeah, but even with a fresh air exchange, you'd have to do one of the following:

1. Have it running 24/7
2. Have it linked to a switch (wall switch or some kind of custom keyfob-relay system)
3. Have it linked to an automatic garage-capable CO detector that kicks off the air exchange system when dangerous levels are detected

The glaring issue with that is that then you're relying on an active system to save you. If the power goes out, if the automatic systems fail, if you forget to press the button, etc. then you're still hosed.

I don't think there's a good (easy) method to accomplish this task available right now.

If I were seriously going to try, I'd try to use the built in remote control system in my Jeep to automatically do things when I remote start it. It can control 3 relays, like many cars can. Homelink system.

That's what I'd try to invent or program into the vehicle.

Theoretically I could have the garage door open, the exhaust fan turn on for a 30 minute cycle, and one other thing turn on, when I remote start the Jeep, using Homelink.

I have no interest in even researching the idea, though.

I wouldn't run my car in the garage, anyway.

 

[Kaido]

If I were seriously going to try, I'd try to use the built in remote control system in my Jeep to automatically do things when I remote start it. It can control 3 relays, like many cars can. Homelink system.

That's what I'd try to invent or program into the vehicle.

Theoretically I could have the garage door open, the exhaust fan turn on for a 30 minute cycle, and one other thing turn on, when I remote start the Jeep, using Homelink.

I have no interest in even researching the idea, though.

I wouldn't run my car in the garage, anyway.

Multiple relays, eh? So you could turn on the air exchange system via keyfob for remote start, and also automatically via a garage-capable CO detector. That'd be nearly the perfect setup!

 

[Kaido]

Kaido, you and others continue to use this study when it is not only incredibly old (published in 1997), but provides no sources or representation of data. "there was still a measurable concentration of CO in the garage." That gives zero information as to what it was. 1ppm? 100ppm?

The average ppm of CO in Mexico City is between 100-200. That is outside and people continue to live there just fine.

If you are afraid of accidentally running your car for a prolonged period of time from a closed garage attached to the house AND having enough CO seep into the house to present a hazard to your house, put a CO detector right inside the door leading to the garage. Plain and simple. It doesn't vent the garage or start up a Rube Goldberg machine to help, but it will notify you before toxic levels reach anywhere else.

This isn't a task that needs to be accomplished. It is an imaginary problem by helicopter parents.

The study may be older, but old doesn't mean useless. Can you back up your claims with any solid data to show that it isn't a problem? (not trolling, asking seriously) I'm a data-driven person; if the results say that it's a non-issue, then it's a non-issue. I have yet to see any data that says that. That study was the only legitimate piece of information I could easily find on this topic, thus it's the only real data we have in the discussion so far.

From a non-technical perspective, keeping a car running for 5 or 10 minutes in an enclosed space seems like a pretty stupid idea. It seems like it would be smarter to open the garage door first, but going back to that study, it still says it's a stupid idea based on their findings. This isn't much, but here's another article with some tidbits of information:

http://garages.about.com/od/buildingagarage/a/garages_and_indoor_air_quality.htm

Car exhaust, toxic chemicals and volatile organic compounds are present in almost all garages at least some of the time. And they can find their way into the house very easily through open doors, gaps around closed doors, ducts and other wall and ceiling penetrations.

There is scientific proof to back up this claim. A study involving 100 houses conducted by Health Canada found that those with attached garages had measurable quantities of benzene inside the house, while houses without attached garages had little if any benzene. Benzene is a gasoline-related pollutant. The study found similar results with other pollutants.

According to the U.S. Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA), long-term exposure to benzene can affect bone marrow and blood production. Short-term exposure to high levels can cause drowsiness, dizziness, unconsciousness and death.

A survey of Minnesota houses during the winter of 1996-1997 found that 74 percent of homes with carbon monoxide (CO) detectors that went off were triggered by CO leaking in from the garage. Other studies from Iowa, Colorado and Alaska have found substantial evidence of garage-generated CO leaking into houses.

But it doesn't say what levels of benzene is toxic to humans or if that's an actual issue for indoor air quality or anything like that.

 

[sontakke]

This is the garage forum. When I run the seafoam or something similar, I don't do it in my garage but back out the vehicle and do it in the driveway where the exhaust is directed towards the road. But as far as warming the vehicle for five ten minutes inside the garage while the door is open? That is not a problem as long as the garage is open to the outside. Has there been any documented case of CO poisoning when a "normal" vehicle was running in an open garage for 15 minutes?

 

[KK]

Man, people these days are a bunch of pussies. I remember winters in Rochester, NY, I had an old car with poor weather stripping and a heater that didn't work. I'd drive that car from Rochester to Albany in the middle of winter with no heat. I would just bundle up and drive straight through... I could do that drive in 3.5 hours door to door (I lived in Greece and was traveling to East Greenbush).

Yeah, alot of these pussies have gotten soft. Thats what happens when people move to cali. :sneaky:

Anyways, why in the heck would you need to remote start in a garage?

 

[LTC8K6]

Multiple relays, eh? So you could turn on the air exchange system via keyfob for remote start, and also automatically via a garage-capable CO detector. That'd be nearly the perfect setup!

Ummm...the Homelink system is part of the car. There are 3 programmable buttons on the roof console. They can be set to open your garage door, turn on the house lights, start the mixed drink blender, etc.

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/atta...d-light-bar-install-twist-20130920_075003.jpg

I proposed to use them to open the garage door, and turn on a fan, when the vehicle is remote started.

No CO detector involved.

When the car receives the remote start command, it triggers the door and fan via Homelink. You don't need to do anything but remote start the car.

It's not quite that simple, but that was the idea. You remote start the car, the car uses Homelink to open the garage door and turn on the fan.

 

[michal1980]

This is the garage forum. When I run the seafoam or something similar, I don't do it in my garage but back out the vehicle and do it in the driveway where the exhaust is directed towards the road. But as far as warming the vehicle for five ten minutes inside the garage while the door is open? That is not a problem as long as the garage is open to the outside. Has there been any documented case of CO poisoning when a "normal" vehicle was running in an open garage for 15 minutes?

Lets just take a simple risk vs reward?

whats the reward, you are slightly less cold.

risk:

death
brain damage
other physical side effects from noxious fumes
house fire

This is just a stupid idea.

Like others have said. If your garage is attached, its going to be warmer then the outside already.

If your garage is dethatched, your still not going to have to scrape your car off like if it was outside.

This is crybaby talk.


Actually I do have an idea for the OP that would work and be safe.

Get a a CMAX energi, or Fusions energi. With the car plugged in, you can set a schedule for it to warm up to temp, and it uses nothing but electricity. No exhaust, no warming of the garage. Perfect.

 

[eelw]

Again, it does not get that cold in an attached garage. And if it really has gotten that cold, just open the garage door and run the car. Just make sure the garage is vented enough before you bring out your kid.

 

[Kaido]

Ummm...the Homelink system is part of the car. There are 3 programmable buttons on the roof console. They can be set to open your garage door, turn on the house lights, start the mixed drink blender, etc.

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/atta...d-light-bar-install-twist-20130920_075003.jpg

I proposed to use them to open the garage door, and turn on a fan, when the vehicle is remote started.

No CO detector involved.

When the car receives the remote start command, it triggers the door and fan via Homelink. You don't need to do anything but remote start the car.

It's not quite that simple, but that was the idea. You remote start the car, the car uses Homelink to open the garage door and turn on the fan.

I was referring to the product you linked earlier:

http://precisiondoor.net/carbon-monoxide-detector

So the situations would be:

1. If you remote-start your car, it opens the garage door and/or kicks off a ventilation fan
2. If the carbon monoxide detector goes off, it opens your garage door and/or kicks off a ventilation fan

That seems like it would solve the problem.

 

[Kaido]

Actually I do have an idea for the OP that would work and be safe.

Get a a CMAX energi, or Fusions energi. With the car plugged in, you can set a schedule for it to warm up to temp, and it uses nothing but electricity. No exhaust, no warming of the garage. Perfect.

Yeah, my buddy has a Honda Fit EV & does that - car gets toasty-warm via remote control. The downside is that only the Tesla has insulated batteries, so the normally 80-mile range Fit only gets 20 miles of range in sub-20F weather, which we've had consistently this past winter.

Good idea tho. Eventually the batteries will get better & the Tesla's will get cheaper

 

[LTC8K6]

A Chevy Volt would probably warm itself up electrically while plugged in in the garage, and you'd have no range worries. I believe I read that it can be set to warm the cabin electrically when plugged in.

 

[sontakke]

By the way, if you have heated seats, the need to have warmed up car goes down quite a lot.

Almost all of the home-link transmitters inside the vehicle are toggle switch. So are all the garage door openers. So if the garage is closed, it will open it but if the garage is already open it will close it.