How to design a garage with ventilation for remote start?

[JCH13]

If there are no cats on the dyno system, then yeah, you are gonna need a lot of air changes per hour to be safe from exhaust leaks.

I'm still a bit mystified by the need to warm up a car that's been in a garage.
It should be warmer in there than outside, and the car won't have any ice on it.

I would much rather heat the garage to maybe 40 - 50 degrees F.

The car is essentially already warmed up as much as it needs to be for you to drive it.

Every car has at least the potential for pre-cat exhaust leaks, especially when cold. Not just engines on dynos.

I also do not see the point of warming up a car already in a garage, but it's easier to argue why it's stupid in execution than to argue why it's not needed.

 

[smackababy]

If you don't know, you should generally refrain giving advice that could cause someone to sustain brain damage...


Keep in mind, the car isn't warmed up yet for those 5 minutes so the catalytic convertors aren't working. So all this talk about "modern cars" is moot. BTW that's why the government doesn't want you warming up your car before driving--- it drastically increases air pollution because an idling car takes longer to get the cats to operating temp and the whole time it's spewing toxic gas.

The OP is talking about his car pumping enough CO emissions to poison those in his house. That is a pretty nonexistent problem. Even in the event he accidentally auto starts his car and leaves it running for hours, the amount of CO emissions that make it into his house and saturate the air is going to have to be incredibly high to cause brain damage. In that event, only the first few minutes of his car warming up will be lower operating temperatures. And, then you have to account for the seepage from the garage into the house, along with any ventilation and air moving systems.

 

[Throckmorton]

The OP is talking about his car pumping enough CO emissions to poison those in his house. That is a pretty nonexistent problem. Even in the event he accidentally auto starts his car and leaves it running for hours, the amount of CO emissions that make it into his house and saturate the air is going to have to be incredibly high to cause brain damage. In that event, only the first few minutes of his car warming up will be lower operating temperatures. And, then you have to account for the seepage from the garage into the house, along with any ventilation and air moving systems.

How do you know that? Are you just making an assumption that it must be safe because you want it to be safe?

Poisoning starts at 35ppm and death is at only 1.28%
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide_poisoning


I found this study:
http://www.abe.iastate.edu/extension-and-outreach/carbon-monoxide-poisoning-garages-aen-207/

Is it safe to briefly warm up a car in an open garage? No. In an Iowa State study, warming up a vehicle for only two minutes with the overhead door open raised CO concentrations in the garage to 500 ppm. Ten hours after the car had been backed out of the garage, there was still a measurable concentration of CO in the garage. Persons working in the garage for a long period of time would breath a dangerous amount of carbon monoxide.

Obviously the concentration in the house will be lower, but if 10% of the air in the house comes from outside, and you run the car for 10 minutes getting CO up to maybe 5000ppm, the house concentration would be 500ppm which is enough to be dangerous. Even if it's 1/10 that, you're talking about causing the house to have a constant 50ppm CO level which may be enough to cause permanent brain damage over time

 

[sontakke]

Is he planning to running the car with the garage door closed? If not, what is the problem here?

Here is your answer. We live in Northeast and have attached garage and a van with remote start. Garage itself never freezes. When needed, I have remote started the van and for 5-10 minutes. Obviously the exhaust is facing the opened garage door.

We are still all alive. As far as brain damage is concerned, being AT contributor for years have made that point moot

 

[LTC8K6]

http://precisiondoor.net/carbon-monoxide-detector

Someone is working on a detector that will open your garage door automatically.

 

[nerp]

The OP is talking about his car pumping enough CO emissions to poison those in his house. That is a pretty nonexistent problem. Even in the event he accidentally auto starts his car and leaves it running for hours, the amount of CO emissions that make it into his house and saturate the air is going to have to be incredibly high to cause brain damage. In that event, only the first few minutes of his car warming up will be lower operating temperatures. And, then you have to account for the seepage from the garage into the house, along with any ventilation and air moving systems.

Tell that to the friends and family of the dozen or so people who have died in my state over the past three years from doing just this. And I'm not making it up. I cover crime as a reporter. They are dead. Why? Remote start car in garage.

 

[Kaido]

Is he planning to running the car with the garage door closed?

Yes, that is the plan. The goal is:

1. It's a cold day
2. Car is parked in unheated garage (with door closed)
3. Press remote-start to warm it up

The ideal situation would be to not have to pay to have the garage heated. And not die from fumes. It doesn't appear that there is an easy, off-the-shelf solution for car exhaust ventilation in an enclosed garage, however. According to the link below, it is not safe to warm up a car in a garage, even with the door opened:

http://www.abe.iastate.edu/extension-and-outreach/carbon-monoxide-poisoning-garages-aen-207/

Is it safe to briefly warm up a car in an open garage?

No. In an Iowa State study, warming up a vehicle for only two minutes with the overhead door open raised CO concentrations in the garage to 500 ppm. Ten hours after the car had been backed out of the garage, there was still a measurable concentration of CO in the garage. Persons working in the garage for a long period of time would breath a dangerous amount of carbon monoxide.

There are a variety of options:

1. Pull the car out of the garage & then remote-start to warm it up
2. Get a firehouse-style exhaust pipe (requires manual attachment, which is kind of ridiculous to do every day)
3. Insulate the garage (insulated garage door & room insulation) to keep temperatures somewhat stable (especially if the garage is attached to the house & can mooch some warmth)
4. Install a heater (possibly on a timer) to keep the garage (and thus the car) warm
5. Ignore the safety issues & start it up in a closed garage
6. Ignore the safety issues & start it up in the garage with the door open
7. Install a commercial air exchange system (ex. with a big fan) like dyno shops have (and somehow tie it into the remote-start system to kick it off automatically, or remember to start it up manually when you remote start the car - both of which are a hassle because you need to custom-develop a link system, or always remember to hit a switch to start the ventilation system)

It's a simple problem with a complex solution. Yes, it is a convenience project & yes, it isn't terribly important in the grand scheme of things. Definitely a first-world problem. But I'd still like to know exactly what the situation is. It seems like a pretty simple request - keep the car parked out of the elements, press a button in the morning to start it up so that it's warm when I hop in.

 

[Kaido]

http://precisiondoor.net/carbon-monoxide-detector

Someone is working on a detector that will open your garage door automatically.

Wow, that should be required by code, that's a great little device! Although per the article linked above, there is still apparently a measurable amount of CO even with the door opened, although it specifically mentions it as a danger to people working in the garage rather in the house. Still, anything that can automatically mitigate risk like that is a plus in my book!

 

[Kaido]

Tell that to the friends and family of the dozen or so people who have died in my state over the past three years from doing just this. And I'm not making it up. I cover crime as a reporter. They are dead. Why? Remote start car in garage.

 

[sontakke]

>> Is he planning to running the car with the garage door closed?
Yes, that is the plan. The goal is:

You are NUTS. Can you add me as your life insurance beneficiary, please???

 

[Kaido]

You are NUTS. Can you add me as your life insurance beneficiary, please???

Hence the thread title: "How to design a garage with ventilation for remote start"

Through the course of discussion in this thread, it doesn't appear that there is an easy, out-of-the-box solution for warming up a car safely inside of a garage. There are some methods available (dyno shop-style ventilation system, firehouse-style exhaust vent hookup), but they are not convenient. There are some alternative methods (heated garage, door/room insulation, attached garage to house to absorb heat), but that doesn't allow you to actually remote-start the car in a garage. So the bottom line is that there currently isn't a viable solution for what I want to do.

It's interesting that this topic doesn't appear to be well-researched, at least online. A lot of cars come from the factory with a remote starter these days, and they're only a few hundred bucks to have installed aftermarket - Best Buy will even put in a system that lets you start it from your smartphone. Makes me wonder how many people do this and are experiencing weird effects without knowing why...

 

[JCH13]

Tell that to the friends and family of the dozen or so people who have died in my state over the past three years from doing just this. And I'm not making it up. I cover crime as a reporter. They are dead. Why? Remote start car in garage.

As much as I hate this phrase: /thread

This simple risk vs reward.

Risk: kill yourself and/or someone in your family.
Reward: have a car that's a little warmer a little sooner after burning a bunch of gas and making your emissions system work overtime during its prolonged warm-up.

Is it really a serious decision?

 

[Kaido]

As much as I hate this phrase: /thread

This simple risk vs reward.

Risk: kill yourself and/or someone in your family.
Reward: have a car that's a little warmer a little sooner after burning a bunch of gas and making your emissions system work overtime during its prolonged warm-up.

Is it really a serious decision?

Yeah, I don't see a simple solution to this problem. Is it fixable? Sure, but not without sizable cost & complexity, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense since it's simply a convenience requirement. I think we've had a good discussion on the pros & cons, verified the dangers, and listed all of the currently-available options, none of which are really viable in practical day-to-day use. It's better to go with an attached garage, or throw in some extra insulation, or add a dedicated heating system if warmth is that much of a priority.

 

[LTC8K6]

A small ceiling fan in the garage? Linked to the door opener. When the door opener is triggered, the ceiling fan turns on.

In the morning, remotely open the garage door, which starts the ceiling fan, then remote start the car. The ceiling fan will ensure a lot of air movement with the door open.

I actually think a block heater will do what you need with a lot less fuss and risk.

 

[Kaido]

A small ceiling fan in the garage? Linked to the door opener. When the door opener is triggered, the ceiling fan turns on.

In the morning, remotely open the garage door, which starts the ceiling fan, then remote start the car. The ceiling fan will ensure a lot of air movement with the door open.

I actually think a block heater will do what you need with a lot less fuss and risk.

Yeah, but you have to remember to plug in the block heater at night. And remember to open the garage door when you remote-start the car (i.e. go find the wall switch no matter where your keys are). I think the easiest option is:

1. Have an attached garage (leech house heat)
2. Insulate the garage
3. Install an insulated garage door (this one does up to R-18.4)

That way the car never gets super-cold to begin with.

 

[WilliamM2]

Yeah, I don't see a simple solution to this problem. Is it fixable? Sure, but not without sizable cost & complexity, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense since it's simply a convenience requirement. I think we've had a good discussion on the pros & cons, verified the dangers, and listed all of the currently-available options, none of which are really viable in practical day-to-day use. It's better to go with an attached garage, or throw in some extra insulation, or add a dedicated heating system if warmth is that much of a priority.

I'll tell you one thing, even if it's safe, if you run the car in the garage everyday, your garage will stink of exhaust fumes, permanently.

As far as ventilation, you should check the codes on exhaust fans. I wanted to put one in when I built my garage, just to cool it on summer evenings. You need louvers that will clamp shut if they detect heat among other things. Apparently a power chimney is a bad thing if there is a fire in the garage...of course codes vary by area.

 

[LTC8K6]

Yeah, but you have to remember to plug in the block heater at night. And remember to open the garage door when you remote-start the car (i.e. go find the wall switch no matter where your keys are). I think the easiest option is:

1. Have an attached garage (leech house heat)
2. Insulate the garage
3. Install an insulated garage door (this one does up to R-18.4)

That way the car never gets super-cold to begin with.

Yes, it's best to just warm up the garage somehow. That's been posted already.

It seems like they could integrate the remote start with the garage door opener. My Jeep has both from the factory. Seems like you could program the car to signal the garage door to open when it is remote started.

 

[smackababy]

Tell that to the friends and family of the dozen or so people who have died in my state over the past three years from doing just this. And I'm not making it up. I cover crime as a reporter. They are dead. Why? Remote start car in garage.

These people died, while in their house, from a car running in their closed garage? Not from going into the garage? I find that incredibly hard to believe, but I suppose that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Yes, it's best to just warm up the garage somehow. That's been posted already.

It seems like they could integrate the remote start with the garage door opener. My Jeep has both from the factory. Seems like you could program the car to signal the garage door to open when it is remote started.

If you're going into the garage, even with the door open, it doesn't move enough air. You'd likely want to install an intake fan or even a window on the other side to help circulate air, but that wouldn't keep the garage very warm.

The safest possible way, assuming he wants to warm his car up (I thought this was for accidentally leaving the car running and poisoning the house) is just to warm the garage. I'd wager that just having insulated walls would do a wonders in an attached garage. An insulated door would help as well.

 

[LTC8K6]

If you're going into the garage, even with the door open, it doesn't move enough air. You'd likely want to install an intake fan or even a window on the other side to help circulate air, but that wouldn't keep the garage very warm.

Well, when the garage door opens the ceiling fan would turn on, per my earlier posted attempt to figure out a solution.

So, you'd remote start the car, the car signals the garage door to open, and the ceiling fan/exhaust fan automatically comes on.

I think it's time for the government to mandate it for our safety...

 

[desy]

You don't want to heat your garage because of rust
A block heater is not an interior warmer, two different products

 

[LTC8K6]

You don't want to heat your garage because of rust
A block heater is not an interior warmer, two different products

Heated/cooled air should be fairly dry. I would think it would make rust less likely.

The block heater warms the engine, either via the oil or the coolant. This makes the heater in the car work a lot quicker. Especially when your car is in a garage and not really very cold.

 

[sontakke]

what is your objection to opening the garage when you remote start the car?

 

[Zargon]

How do you know that? Are you just making an assumption that it must be safe because you want it to be safe?

Poisoning starts at 35ppm and death is at only 1.28%
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide_poisoning


I found this study:
http://www.abe.iastate.edu/extension-and-outreach/carbon-monoxide-poisoning-garages-aen-207/



Obviously the concentration in the house will be lower, but if 10% of the air in the house comes from outside, and you run the car for 10 minutes getting CO up to maybe 5000ppm, the house concentration would be 500ppm which is enough to be dangerous. Even if it's 1/10 that, you're talking about causing the house to have a constant 50ppm CO level which may be enough to cause permanent brain damage over time

from your own link:
400 ppm (0.04%) Frontal headache within one to two hours

hours


the solution is for him to open the garage door(they make remotes for that too!)

and only idle the car for a few minutes

how warm does it need to be??



I have LOL at the link, I run stuff in my garage all the time, sometimes my motorcycles(no cats!!) with the door shut(not for very long at all, obviously)

but I don't always open the window or back door to allow for more air flow.

that study is not a real study, it doesn't even cite anything. its kinda scary an academic institution put that out there with no citation or ability to check or provide facts

You don't want to heat your garage because of rust

what?!

 

[smackababy]

what?!

I believe he is trying to imply that the salt from the roads and the warmer temperatures in a heated garage are more ample conditions for rust than in an unheated garage. However, if you live in an area with snow and road salt, rust is pretty much a given. You can be as careful as you'd like and wash your car every time the salt is gone, but it is going to rust eventually.

 

[LTC8K6]

what is your objection to opening the garage when you remote start the car?

There have been studies posted that seem to indicate it doesn't help much because there is still a lack of fresh air exchange.

I think that is the objection. It doesn't actually help.

That's why I added the ceiling fan in my Rube Goldberg setup.