How to design a garage with ventilation for remote start?

[Kaido]

If the garage is inside the house with living space behind two walls and the ceiling then it won't be that cold inside, even if its an exterior garage it'll still be better than having the car outside. Unless you're moving to alaska there really isn't a need to warm up the car inside a garage.

That's why I figure I'll do the research now. Just looking for a small starter home, so I don't mind building if it doesn't have a garage (plus I can build in the storage & a workbench!). I just don't know the ins & outs of codes; I'm working my way through the electrical & plumbing stuff right now but haven't gotten into the garage & ventilation stuff too much yet.

If I build it, I definitely want to do a drive-through garage...like a garage door on each side so you can pull through & not have to back up. I've seen it on houses where people have boats & things - they can loop in, park the boat, then turn around & park the car, pretty slick!

 

[Kaido]

after what time period though?

either way, I crack the garage door when I run something in the garage if its warming up, and open the door fully before going out there, that's what remotes are for...after all

That's what I'm trying to find out, i.e. specific information. It's hard finding solid data on this stuff! It's a simple question with a complex answer, apparently.

 

[Kaido]

My attached garage rarely gets below freezing in the winter. It has to be a very long cold spell for that to happen. However, I did finish it off inside with working on cars in mind. I insulated the walls and the ceiling before drywalling and I have an insulated garage door.

Modern cars usually warm pretty quickly (when being driven) and if you have heated seats, to me, it's no big deal to get into a car with leather seats in the winter that has been in my garage.

Yeah, I've seen some insulated garage doors with R-values above 17 (Thermacore), which is pretty neat. My buddy installed the newer H2i Mr. Slim units in his place; they're amazing in the winter (previous mini-split systems had issues pumping out heat in super-cold temps), so that's one possibility. If you go the DIY route, you can do it for under $3k, which is hefty, but it gives you a heated garage (even in lower temps) as well as an air-conditioned garage, which is pretty nice. I'm not sure what 24/7 operational costs would be with the heating system kicked on high, but you could probably timer it for before you wake up & stuff to have it pre-heated.

 

[LTC8K6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide_poisoning#Suicide

You can read wiki and the notes.

There's virtually no risk from a modern car remote started and run for 15 minutes in a garage.

You would have to run the car for a long time in a well sealed garage.

Cracking the door open a little pretty much removes all risk from running the car for long periods, as long as the car is running well and has good cats.

That said, I still would not risk it for longer than the remote start time-out period.

But, if I had a garage, it would at least be heated to 40 or 50 degrees F, and I would have no need to warm up the car...

 

[Throckmorton]

It's not just CO you have to worry about but also CO2. 5000ppm (0.5%) is enough to cause symptoms in humans and 10000ppm is enough to cause more serious symptoms.

A person in a bedroom will reach 5000ppm overnight, now think of how fast a car that burns fuel much faster than a human will get to 5000ppm in a garage.

 

[tweakmonkey]

I'd rather put a heater in my garage. Then again I've never lived somewhere so cold that a garage alone isn't sufficient: even if it's around 40 outside, the car parked overnight in a garage feels WAY warmer. Garages alone without remote starts or heaters make a huge difference in keeping the car warm.

 

[LTC8K6]

It's not just CO you have to worry about but also CO2. 5000ppm (0.5%) is enough to cause symptoms in humans and 10000ppm is enough to cause more serious symptoms.

A person in a bedroom will reach 5000ppm overnight, now think of how fast a car that burns fuel much faster than a human will get to 5000ppm in a garage.

That seems awfully high.

http://inspectapedia.com/hazmat/CO2_Typical_Levels.htm

What are typical Carbon Dioxide levels in indoor and outdoor air?

Carbon dioxide CO2 levels outdoors near ground level are typically 300 ppm to 400 ppm or 0.03% to 0.040% in concentration.
Carbon dioxide CO2 levels indoors in occupied buildings are typically around 600 ppm to 800 ppm or 0.06% to 0.08% in concentration. You'll find this data in many indoor air quality articles and books and it's consistent with what we find typically in our own field measurements.
Carbon dioxide CO2 levels indoors in an inadequately vented space with heavy occupation is often measured around 1000 ppm or 0.10% in concentration. I have measured levels around 1200 ppm in occupied basement offices in a hospital where the staff worked in an area which had no decent fresh air intake into their ventilation system. I

n 1989 I also measured 1200 ppm at chest height in the center of the sanctuary in a Jewish synagogue during the high holy days in a small New York city. I also observed people nodding off. We were never sure if it was a droning sermon, exhausted worshipers at the end of a long week, or the CO2 level. But there was no doubt that we were not meeting recommended ventilation standards for that space.

The US EPA warns that indoor ventilation is inadequate at CO2 levels of 1000ppm, [3] but for a more thorough discussion of toxicity of carbon dioxide see CO2 POISONING SYMPTOMS and CO2 HEALTH EFFECTS
Carbon dioxide levels above 1500 to 2000 ppm are likely to be reached only in unusual circumstances (being enclosed in an airtight closet for a long time) or in industrial workplace settings such as we cited above.

 

[LTC8K6]

It's interesting, because the cases where people tried to kill themselves with modern car exhaust and failed, obviously also failed to kill themselves with the high CO2 level...

 

[Throckmorton]

That seems awfully high.

http://inspectapedia.com/hazmat/CO2_Typical_Levels.htm

What are typical Carbon Dioxide levels in indoor and outdoor air?

Carbon dioxide CO2 levels outdoors near ground level are typically 300 ppm to 400 ppm or 0.03% to 0.040% in concentration.
Carbon dioxide CO2 levels indoors in occupied buildings are typically around 600 ppm to 800 ppm or 0.06% to 0.08% in concentration. You'll find this data in many indoor air quality articles and books and it's consistent with what we find typically in our own field measurements.
Carbon dioxide CO2 levels indoors in an inadequately vented space with heavy occupation is often measured around 1000 ppm or 0.10% in concentration. I have measured levels around 1200 ppm in occupied basement offices in a hospital where the staff worked in an area which had no decent fresh air intake into their ventilation system. I

n 1989 I also measured 1200 ppm at chest height in the center of the sanctuary in a Jewish synagogue during the high holy days in a small New York city. I also observed people nodding off. We were never sure if it was a droning sermon, exhausted worshipers at the end of a long week, or the CO2 level. But there was no doubt that we were not meeting recommended ventilation standards for that space.

The US EPA warns that indoor ventilation is inadequate at CO2 levels of 1000ppm, [3] but for a more thorough discussion of toxicity of carbon dioxide see CO2 POISONING SYMPTOMS and CO2 HEALTH EFFECTS
Carbon dioxide levels above 1500 to 2000 ppm are likely to be reached only in unusual circumstances (being enclosed in an airtight closet for a long time) or in industrial workplace settings such as we cited above.

I think that's probably due to less well-sealed buildings that existed back then. In a modern tightly sealed up bedroom, CO2 reaches 5000ppm over 8 hours with one person sleeping. I haven't been able to find the article for a couple years though.

I did find this other one: http://www.pluggit.com/portal/en/co2-the-most-important-indicator-of-the-air-quality--3144

The limit value for living areas in Germany is 0.15% (1,500 ppm) of CO2. In comparison, often concentrations of up to three times as high (up to 5,000 ppm) can be measured in unventilated bedrooms and also in fully occupied classrooms!

 

[Raizinman]

Put a CO detector in the garage and do a few tests to see what happens. Keep it in there for safety.

Never put a CO detector in your garage. Everytime you start up your car, mower, snow blower or even a weed eater will have your CO detector going wild. It actually takes quite a bit of time to clear out the CO once your garage has been saturated. Even the CO manufacturers state not to put them in the garage.

 

[LTC8K6]

Never put a CO detector in your garage. Everytime you start up your car, mower, snow blower or even a weed eater will have your CO detector going wild. It actually takes quite a bit of time to clear out the CO once your garage has been saturated. Even the CO manufacturers state not to put them in the garage.

Yeah, I've read that, but I know CO detectors are used in ventilated garages.

 

[SSSnail]

You can build separate vent with a blower that you operate with a switch from inside the house, and a switch inside the garage so you can turn the damn blower vent on before you start the car, and turn it off once you have the garage door opened and before you leave your house. I can build one for you for 100 meeellion dollars.

 

[Gerle]

Never used a block heater, I thought those only warmed up the engine - does it help warm up the car interior too?

Indirectly, by allowing the engine to get to operating temperature quicker.

 

[JulesMaximus]

It's interesting, because the cases where people tried to kill themselves with modern car exhaust and failed, obviously also failed to kill themselves with the high CO2 level...

Keep in mind that an engine is least efficient when started cold and the exhaust gases will be much more toxic.

 

[Kaido]

You can build separate vent with a blower that you operate with a switch from inside the house, and a switch inside the garage so you can turn the blower vent on before you start the car, and turn it off once you have the garage door opened and before you leave your house. I can build one for you for 100 meeellion dollars.

Maybe I can use an Arduino board to sync the keyfob remote start code to a ventilation switch :whiste:

Yeah, it sounds like the best options are either (1) have a heated & well-insulated garage, or (2) open the door, back the car out, and pre-heat it in the driveway so that the CO/CO2/fumes don't build up in the garage. The downside of #1 is you have to pay for a heated garage. The downside of #2 is that you have to brave the elements just to get the car warmed up. Curse you, first world problems!

 

[Murloc]

Does a well-insulated garage attached to the house get below freezing?
I don't live in such cold areas thankfully.

Anyway if you have a garage and starting the car is not the problem, the only problem is the cold wheel and the cold stick. But americans drive autos so you don't have to touch the stick much.

All is left is the steering wheel (assuming you have heated seats): just put a furry insulating cover on it.
If that's not enough, you could buy a heated wheel cover.
I've seen those on the internet, they get reviews from russians so they can't be that bad.
They're like normal insulating cover but they also have a 12v cord that can be detached from the wheel.
There are warnings to leave it on for 3 minutes and then detach it before driving but if you don't have to turn the wheel too much I guess you don't even have to wait, although I'd try and see if it detaches easily enough if you jerk the wheel as you don't want to get in an accident.

 

[Kaido]

Does a well-insulated garage attached to the house get below freezing?
I don't live in such cold areas thankfully.

Anyway if you have a garage and starting the car is not the problem, the only problem is the cold wheel and the cold stick. But americans drive autos so you don't have to touch the stick much.

All is left is the steering wheel (assuming you have heated seats): just put a furry insulating cover on it.
If that's not enough, you could buy a heated wheel cover.
I've seen those on the internet, they get reviews from russians so they can't be that bad.
They're like normal insulating cover but they also have a 12v cord that can be detached from the wheel.
There are warnings to leave it on for 3 minutes and then detach it before driving but if you don't have to turn the wheel too much I guess you don't even have to wait, although I'd try and see if it detaches easily enough if you jerk the wheel as you don't want to get in an accident.

I don't know; I lived in the (warm) south before & have been renting up north. This would be my first garage in cold weather. It was consistently between 0F and 10F in my area this past winter; scraping off ice & snow and then loading a baby & baby gear into a cold vehicle gets annoying. The ideal setup would be to not have to pay to keep the garage warm and just hit a button on the keyfob to remote-start the car, so I could go out to a warmed-up car in the garage. But there's the issue with the exhaust & ventilation and it doesn't look like there are any really good solutions to it.

 

[michal1980]

I don't know; I lived in the (warm) south before & have been renting up north. This would be my first garage in cold weather. It was consistently between 0F and 10F in my area this past winter; scraping off ice & snow and then loading a baby & baby gear into a cold vehicle gets annoying. The ideal setup would be to not have to pay to keep the garage warm and just hit a button on the keyfob to remote-start the car, so I could go out to a warmed-up car in the garage. But there's the issue with the exhaust & ventilation and it doesn't look like there are any really good solutions to it.

I have a detached garage and never remote start my car. Never have to deal with scraping off ice and snow.

Sure its cold. but the best thing to do to warm your car up is to drive.

your trying to solve an issue that just about no one that lives in the north bothers with. If there was a demand for people remote starting their cars in the garage you wold think a product would already exist for it.

 

[smackababy]

This really sounds like you are trying to come up with a complicated solution for a nonexistent problem.

In the 10 minutes you car is idling in your garage, I doubt the CO levels will become anywhere near toxic. Especially, if you have a car that has remote start (as it will be modern).

 

[Kaido]

This really sounds like you are trying to come up with a complicated solution for a nonexistent problem.

In the 10 minutes you car is idling in your garage, I doubt the CO levels will become anywhere near toxic. Especially, if you have a car that has remote start (as it will be modern).

Problem seems to exist based on research:

http://www.abe.iastate.edu/extension-and-outreach/carbon-monoxide-poisoning-garages-aen-207/

Garages & remote starters aren't exactly exotic possessions these days, but I also haven't heard of people dying from fumes left & right. I just want to make sure I get my facts straight.

 

[smackababy]

Problem seems to exist based on research:

http://www.abe.iastate.edu/extension-and-outreach/carbon-monoxide-poisoning-garages-aen-207/

Garages & remote starters aren't exactly exotic possessions these days, but I also haven't heard of people dying from fumes left & right. I just want to make sure I get my facts straight.

The problem is the concentration to get CO poisoning has to be really high to immediately feel the effects or have prolonged exposure (like 6-8 hours of exposure at 35 ppm). As a reference, downtown Mexico City is between 100-200 ppm. That is a headeache from 2-3 hours of exposure.

That article was published in 1997. While, it is a problem, I don't think spending 5 minutes with your car on in the garage is going to cause any real problem, especially in the house.

 

[desy]

Don't run your car in an enclosed garage.
If you want it warmer you can buy an electric interior warmer and run it off a timer inside the garage. This is different than a block heater. I used to do this in my un-insulated detached garage before I build a new house.
If your garage is attached to the house and its insulated it won't get very cold in there, my attached insulated garage was 10F when the outside was -40F Now w heated seats in the cars I don't bother trying to get it warmer

Finally you don't want a warm garage, salted roads with the freeze thaw cycle are only accelerating rust. Rust is a chemical reaction which responds like most to heat.

 

[Throckmorton]

This really sounds like you are trying to come up with a complicated solution for a nonexistent problem.

In the 10 minutes you car is idling in your garage, I doubt the CO levels will become anywhere near toxic. Especially, if you have a car that has remote start (as it will be modern).

If you don't know, you should generally refrain giving advice that could cause someone to sustain brain damage...


Keep in mind, the car isn't warmed up yet for those 5 minutes so the catalytic convertors aren't working. So all this talk about "modern cars" is moot. BTW that's why the government doesn't want you warming up your car before driving--- it drastically increases air pollution because an idling car takes longer to get the cats to operating temp and the whole time it's spewing toxic gas.

 

[JCH13]

I would be REALLY worried about CO accumulating in your garage over a large number of starts. Rooms that dyno engines use something crazy, like 6-10 air changes/hour on top of positively venting exhaust, to keep CO levels down. I doubt any civillian-constructed system would be nearly effective enough in the long-term. I would be especially concerned if said garage was attached to the house. Many houses, especially new ones in colder climates, are very tight and have very few air changes, so CO would be persistent in the air. It is also reasonably persistent in a person's blood stream, compounding the issue.

It seems like the risk/reward analysis is WAY off here to even be considering running a car indoors without professionally designed and installed exhaust extraction. At that point the cost/benefit analysis says that it's a terrible idea.

TL;DR - Too expensive to do right, to risky to half-ass.

 

[LTC8K6]

I would be REALLY worried about CO accumulating in your garage over a large number of starts. Rooms that dyno engines use something crazy, like 6-10 air changes/hour on top of positively venting exhaust, to keep CO levels down. I doubt any civillian-constructed system would be nearly effective enough in the long-term. I would be especially concerned if said garage was attached to the house. Many houses, especially new ones in colder climates, are very tight and have very few air changes, so CO would be persistent in the air. It is also reasonably persistent in a person's blood stream, compounding the issue.

It seems like the risk/reward analysis is WAY off here to even be considering running a car indoors without professionally designed and installed exhaust extraction. At that point the cost/benefit analysis says that it's a terrible idea.

TL;DR - Too expensive to do right, to risky to half-ass.

If there are no cats on the dyno system, then yeah, you are gonna need a lot of air changes per hour to be safe from exhaust leaks.

I'm still a bit mystified by the need to warm up a car that's been in a garage.
It should be warmer in there than outside, and the car won't have any ice on it.

I would much rather heat the garage to maybe 40 - 50 degrees F.

The car is essentially already warmed up as much as it needs to be for you to drive it.