How The Rich Are Winning

[jackace]

As someone who has studied the Gini Index and economic mobility in the united states vs other countries... It isn't about hard work at all. It is about if your family is wealthy to begin with, giving you access to business connections, capital, and top-tier education.

If there were a lot of billionaires going broke the public would be more inclined to believe the elaborate lie, but the fact is, the evidence is everywhere that it is the "land of opportunity for some."

Everyone else is just along for the ride.

Exactly, could not agree more.

The people on the so called bottom can change all that but they are not willing to. Don't like the CEO of McDonalds making all that money ? stop eating there. Don't like a bank making money ? Quit getting loans and accounts with them. I don't like the way walmart runs their corporation so I stopped giving them my money.

People will bitch about a news item on finances and talk about how wrong it is, then 30 seconds later it is on with their lives like the news item was a movie about someone else life. I wasn't a fan of the 60's and the way the hippies behaved but at least when upset about something they tried to change it, not always the best way, but they did at least attempt. Now people think about changing something then 30 seconds later think, well I hope someone does something about that.

Wow talk about broad generalizations.

 

[gingermeggs]

I support this. For many Americans, its not about STUFF, its about being able to afford food, shelter, medical care, and paying debt. None of these are really related to Chinese made stuff. All of these require a job and if that job is in a newly competitive American manufacturing industry, then so be it.

It's really two choices:
1. More expensive stuff, more decent paying jobs, and less people on Government assistance.
2. Cheaper stuff, fewer jobs, and more people on the assistance.



This is another opportunity. Massive public works projects, such as new public transportation lines, would provide tremendous stimulus. Make the trains in the U.S. and we'd be in great shape.

Europeans have less stuff, but they have longer vacations, have funds for travel, and better health care systems. This is a difference in priorities and values more than anything.



At that point, we'll have to rethink our whole economy.

You could add the quality of stuff also, making the extra cost initially being cheaper in the longterm, like an American produced T-shirt that lasts 10years instead of 2years but cost 3 times as much at the purchase time- your long term bottom line is stronger.
Remember how cars used to last like 25years+
It comes back to the corporate entities, squeezing the coin out of everybody.

Europeans are usually better dressed-italian suits anyone?-and have nicer artisan furniture- but a small TV and home cooked meals instead of macca's, water instead of coke!

 

[boomerang]

Do you not realize that it is the business owners killing the economy, because they are hiding and waiting (instead of growing) due to their irrational fear of Obama?

A good business should be able to operate and grow successfully in any political environment. Yes, even if they are being regulated, and even if their taxes are being raised.

Wow. Just wow.

 

[gingermeggs]

Glad to see that at least we see some common ground Sammy. I'm not entirely unreasonable. Just mostly.

But now let me put the question back on you. How do you change it? If the problem is the American middle class desire for STUFF is at the expense of the bottom rung of our citizens, how do you fix it?

And as for the future it's not enough to say "we'll have to rethink it." It's coming, so we better start building for it now or we're going to get another wave of massive hurt again, just as we're fixing things from this most recent downturn.

Try it at the expense of the rich and your onto something!
Or does that hurt your bottom line?

Eliminate the usury and middle-manning would save a motza!

 

[gingermeggs]

[URL="http://spectator.org/archives/2010/07/16/americas-ruling-class-and-the"]America's Ruling Class -- And the Perils of Revolution[/URL]

This is a really, really long read.

Yes and it says vote republican, talk about deference!
I think modelworks had the best solution- none of the above....vote with your dollars using your common sense to achieve change. Keep the money in your own economy, not back to the multinational corp's head office.

 

[BoberFett]

n/m

 

[Exterous]

People will bitch about a news item on finances and talk about how wrong it is, then 30 seconds later it is on with their lives like the news item was a movie about someone else life. I wasn't a fan of the 60's and the way the hippies behaved but at least when upset about something they tried to change it, not always the best way, but they did at least attempt. Now people think about changing something then 30 seconds later think, well I hope someone does something about that.

Actually I think this goes back to what BoberFett was saying. People have too much stuff now. There is more to lose than before and people are afraid of losing it. If something changes they might not be able to live the lifestyle they are now accustomed to

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Actually I think this goes back to what BoberFett was saying. People have too much stuff now. There is more to lose than before and people are afraid of losing it. If something changes they might not be able to live the lifestyle they are now accustomed to

Bober is right. It has everything to do with not only what people currently have, but the junk they want to buy to keep up with the Joneses. For that, they need the cheap Chinese imports.

I was thinking back to when I was a kid in the 70s and early 80s, and I remember how much more expensive things were back then. Sure, some of it was due to the fact that maybe technology wasn't as advanced and therefore, manufacturing costs were higher. But Chinese imports weren't as pervasive then and as a result, you paid a higher price due to the higher labor costs in the US. I didn't have as much, but one thing I do remember was being happier. I'd take those days over the present any day of the week.

 

[Exterous]

You could add the quality of stuff also, making the extra cost initially being cheaper in the longterm, like an American produced T-shirt that lasts 10years instead of 2years but cost 3 times as much at the purchase time- your long term bottom line is stronger.

How do you prove it's going to last longer? People aren't going to believe company claimes. If people don't believe it's going to last longer they aren't going to be willing to pay more for it

I hope you're right, and that people will just accept that they can't have as much stuff as they used to. I'm not as rosy on the American psyche as you are.

I'm not either. We are too accustomed to needing to buy new stuff. And it really shouldn't be a surprise anymore considering the way our economy runs. Want a stronger economy? Buy more stuff. Any significant change in how often we buy stuff is going to have noticeable effects on our economy - which might risk the stuff we already have

Plus, it's now a cultural thing so you'd have to change that as well. Ads and everyday life encourage more stuff. We use it as a basis to compare ourselves or look down on other people. 'Hey, my car is nicer so I am better/more successful than you!' 'I have a bigger house - look at me, respect me, envy me'. We base life successes on accumulation of wealth and how better to show people that you are successful than to display that wealth? It makes us feel good to have stuff

I am not sure America is capable of a what I see as a fundamental change without great adversity

 

[IndyColtsFan]

I am not sure America is capable of a what I see as a fundamental change without great adversity

You're right, of course, but I wonder how great the adversity will need to be. How many times have you heard about people spending themselves into bankruptcy, declaring it, and then just a few short years later(what is it, 7 years minimum between declarations?), declaring it again?

I had a friend that was spending outrageous sums of money. Anytime a new gadget came out, he would buy it. He had so much crap that he had a room piled high with gadgets and stuff he hadn't even opened. He bought himself and his wife each a new desktop, a new laptop, a new Mac Book, UMPCs, and maybe even netbooks, for example. This was within a period of months -- it isn't as if some of those were obsolete and he had to replace them.

At one point, his wife had to quit her job for health reasons, which lost them $50K or $60K of income. He talked the talk -- "We'll have to cut back!" but in the end, he still had his new Yukon Denali, his new Miata, his new Ford Escape, and kept buying more toys. He finally had to declare bankruptcy. He seemed shocked that his lawyer looked over his financial records and just completely reamed him over his stupidity. Yet, I would almost guarantee that this guy will have the same problem again in just a few short years.

It is like an addiction, and who knows how bad things will need to get to break the addiction.

 

[Atreus21]

I'm not either. We are too accustomed to needing to buy new stuff. And it really shouldn't be a surprise anymore considering the way our economy runs. Want a stronger economy? Buy more stuff. Any significant change in how often we buy stuff is going to have noticeable effects on our economy - which might risk the stuff we already have.

A strong economy exists when strong trade exists.

Plus, it's now a cultural thing so you'd have to change that as well. Ads and everyday life encourage more stuff. We use it as a basis to compare ourselves or look down on other people. 'Hey, my car is nicer so I am better/more successful than you!' 'I have a bigger house - look at me, respect me, envy me'. We base life successes on accumulation of wealth and how better to show people that you are successful than to display that wealth? It makes us feel good to have stuff

I am not sure America is capable of a what I see as a fundamental change without great adversity

Regardless of economics, humans will find a reason to be snobs. If not by comparing how much we have relative to others and claiming we're better, then by comparing how little we have relative to others and claiming we're virtuous.

Precisely what objection do you have to people in a free society being free to legally acquire whatever stuff they want?

 

[BoberFett]

A strong economy exists when strong trade exists.

Regardless of economics, humans will find a reason to be snobs. If not by comparing how much we have relative to others and claiming we're better, then by comparing how little we have relative to others and claiming we're virtuous.

Precisely what objection do you have to people in a free society being free to legally acquire whatever stuff they want?

You're missing the point entirely. Yes, people should be free to acquire whatever they want. And they are even free to be snobs if they want. The problem is that our gravy train is at an end. Our economy is a house of cards. It is built on unsustainable debt and unrealistic expectations of growth. All of those snobs are going to get a chance to talk about how their dilapidated two room tin shack is better than their neighbors one room tin shack. Congratulations, dipshits. Your snobbish desire to have more now at the expense of the future means you may end up with nothing.

 

[Atreus21]

You're missing the point entirely. Yes, people should be free to acquire whatever they want. And they are even free to be snobs if they want. The problem is that our gravy train is at an end. Our economy is a house of cards. It is built on unsustainable debt and unrealistic expectations of growth.

And what is the answer to that? Do we allow government to mandate what makes a good economy, or allow the market to correct itself as it does naturally?

All of those snobs are going to get a chance to talk about how their dilapidated two room tin shack is better than their neighbors one room tin shack. Congratulations, dipshits. Your snobbish desire to have more now at the expense of the future means you may end up with nothing.

Then it sounds like those snobs are a self-correcting problem. The good thing about the free market is that reality inevitably asserts itself.

We've been through recessions before, and quite a few of them have been called the Great Recession.

 

[Exterous]

You're right, of course, but I wonder how great the adversity will need to be. How many times have you heard about people spending themselves into bankruptcy, declaring it, and then just a few short years later(what is it, 7 years minimum between declarations?), declaring it again?

Sadly I mean really great adversity - as in generation defining. I fear that this recession isn't enough and it would take something along the lines of the Great Depression or a World War (I certainly hope I am wrong though) I might not see it in my life time if we manage to slowly limp through the next couple of decades in a slow decline or some miracle tech is invented that changes everything

A strong economy exists when strong trade exists.

And we have nothing close to strong trade to fall back on.

Regardless of economics, humans will find a reason to be snobs. If not by comparing how much we have relative to others and claiming we're better, then by comparing how little we have relative to others and claiming we're virtuous.

Precisely what objection do you have to people in a free society being free to legally acquire whatever stuff they want?

Agreed - but we depend on stuff as a definition to a self destrucive extent. (The evidence of that is all around us). The objection I have is when their ability to legally aquire stuff directly results in the severe degredation of the society that I live in - which it has.

If one or two people want to spend themselves into oblivion and ruin their lives with irresponsible spending go ahead. When millions do it and destroy the economy for all involved then that is a problem

 

[Exterous]

And what is the answer to that? Do we allow government to mandate what makes a good economy, or allow the market to correct itself as it does naturally?

Naturally

Then it sounds like those snobs are a self-correcting problem. The good thing about the free market is that reality inevitably asserts itself.

We've been through recessions before, and quite a few of them have been called the Great Recession.

With how regulared/bailout our economy has become I am starting to suspect the Free part of Free Market. We are not fixing the underlying problem just hoping it goes away long enough so the next bunch of people have to deal with it.

Sure we have delt with Recessions before but our debt, national and personal, keeps growing. Eventually we will have nothing to fall back on

 

[BoberFett]

And what is the answer to that? Do we allow government to mandate what makes a good economy, or allow the market to correct itself as it does naturally?

Then it sounds like those snobs are a self-correcting problem. The good thing about the free market is that reality inevitably asserts itself.

We've been through recessions before, and quite a few of them have been called the Great Recession.

*sigh*

In your religious fervor, you have mistaken me for someone who gives a shit. I know the market will correct its mistakes. But it is going to be painful. And that pain is going to affect the entire US, not just the snobs. The effect of that pain will be that ignorant people will clamor for government to "Do Something!" and the response from eager politicians will be to take away the "free" portion of the "free market" to prevent it from correcting itself, which will make the pain even worse. This cycle will continue until this country destroys itself.

 

[spidey07]

*sigh*

In your religious fervor, you have mistaken me for someone who gives a shit. I know the market will correct its mistakes. But it is going to be painful. And that pain is going to affect the entire US, not just the snobs. The effect of that pain will be that ignorant people will clamor for government to "Do Something!" and the response from eager politicians will be to take away the "free" portion of the "free market" to prevent it from correcting itself, which will make the pain even worse. This cycle will continue until this country destroys itself.

Never let a good crisis go to waste. It lets you accomplish things you would have never been able to do otherwise.

This shit is ON PURPOSE.

 

[jackace]

*sigh*

In your religious fervor, you have mistaken me for someone who gives a shit. I know the market will correct its mistakes. But it is going to be painful. And that pain is going to affect the entire US, not just the snobs. The effect of that pain will be that ignorant people will clamor for government to "Do Something!" and the response from eager politicians will be to take away the "free" portion of the "free market" to prevent it from correcting itself, which will make the pain even worse. This cycle will continue until this country destroys itself.

The corporations with the help of the government are the main cause of the problem. You can bet that the worst of the negative effects are going to be felt by the poor and middle class, not the rich and especially not those who created the problem.

Never let a good crisis go to waste. It lets you accomplish things you would have never been able to do otherwise.

This shit is ON PURPOSE.

Just like the deregulation and lowering of taxes on the rich which allowed this bubble to form was ON PURPOSE.

 

[Atreus21]

Naturally

With how regulared/bailout our economy has become I am starting to suspect the Free part of Free Market. We are not fixing the underlying problem just hoping it goes away long enough so the next bunch of people have to deal with it.

Sure we have delt with Recessions before but our debt, national and personal, keeps growing. Eventually we will have nothing to fall back on

Absolutely agree. If at any time we elected a government truly dedicated to fiscal responsibility, we'd be on the road to true recovery.

 

[Atreus21]

*sigh*

In your religious fervor, you have mistaken me for someone who gives a shit. I know the market will correct its mistakes. But it is going to be painful. And that pain is going to affect the entire US, not just the snobs. The effect of that pain will be that ignorant people will clamor for government to "Do Something!" and the response from eager politicians will be to take away the "free" portion of the "free market" to prevent it from correcting itself, which will make the pain even worse. This cycle will continue until this country destroys itself.

Our problem isn't an ignorant populace. Our problem is the same tired old problem: Too much government interference.

 

[BoberFett]

The corporations with the help of the government are the main cause of the problem. You can bet that the worst of the negative effects are going to be felt by the poor and middle class, not the rich and especially not those who created the problem.

How does that koolaid taste?

Consumers are to blame.You are to blame. I am to blame. When given the option to buy American made vs imported goods, they chose the cheaper imported goods. Of course companies are going to ship our jobs overseas, that's what we told them to do.

 

[BoberFett]

Our problem isn't an ignorant populace. Our problem is the same tired old problem: Too much government interference.

Too much government interference because that's what the populace wants.

The problem is both. To deny either side of the problem is to miss the problem entirely, and it's one of the reasons we can't find a solution. One side believes the other side is the only problem and attempts to fix that end. You can't fix it without fixing both ends.

 

[BoberFett]

Never let a good crisis go to waste. It lets you accomplish things you would have never been able to do otherwise.

This shit is ON PURPOSE.

Don't look to me for support Spidey. Bush had the opportunity to be a great president and blew it. He used a crisis on purpose to push the agenda of his military complex buddies.

Starting a pointless war that cost a trillion dollars? Stupid.

Cutting taxes without cutting spending? Stupid.

Republicans make the same exact mistakes Democrats do, just on the other end of the spectrum.

 

[StageLeft]

Is it just my wishful thinking or has the ability of the US government to work for and benefit its citizens been inversely correlated with the explosion of lobbying, which started to go stratospheric a few administrations ago? I consider it outright corruption, selling votes for money. It poisons every facet of Washington.

 

[jackace]

How does that koolaid taste?

Consumers are to blame.You are to blame. I am to blame. When given the option to buy American made vs imported goods, they chose the cheaper imported goods. Of course companies are going to ship our jobs overseas, that's what we told them to do.

When government regulations and policies are such that allow corporations to have the power and control you can't blame the individual consumers, investors, etc for following the money. If they don't they risk being left behind or worse.