How The Rich Are Winning

[spidey07]

I'm not talking about individual cases. As a whole the bottom 20% lack upward mobility. How can an entire class of the population be lazy where other classes aren't? Is it genetic? Is there a laziness gene that causes them to be failures, which they pass on to their children? How does it manage to afflict all the races, but solely be dependent on income?

I got that you felt it was laziness in your previous post. I would just like you to explain how a socioeconomic group can exhibit specific personality traits that others don't seem to. How is it possible that people who are born into worse situations also happen to have a predisposition to laziness? How does laziness know to afflict people in certain classes and not others?

Because the poor choices that their parents make are handed down to teach the children these same poor choices and it repeats. That and being successful gets you labeled an uncle tom by your peers and family.

 

[Zebo]

Poor people can get free college education, job assistance, job training, job placement services, etc so that argument doesn't fly. The reason they remain poor is simply because succeeding in your work or career takes WORK and it is HARD.

NOTHING is preventing ANYBODY from becoming successful in life in America. Nothing, only themselves.

Nothing eh?

Well at least you recognize some help is needed. That's a first step. (now you got you figure the trick of paying for it)

One day you will recognize the difference between you and say George Bush.

W went to prep school costing $40,000 a year.. You went to the public high school. W went to Yale most likely ahead of someone with better credentials because of connections, aka legacy admissions. W had wealthy friends, and brothers who was president of banks who bankrolled his multiple oil drilling businesses. Ask some of his friends to bankroll your oil business. Let me know if they stop laughing before or after their bodyguards throw you out.

Nothing eh?

Some have more help than others that's a fact. Why not extend help to all? We do only question is how much.

You know me Spidey I'm not some commie but at same time I recognize some distribution is necessary along with hard work. aka opportunity.

 

[StageLeft]

Laziness. All the assistance is there for them, and yet they don't use it. It goes to what I was saying earlier - attitude and a willingness to do the hard work necessary. But nothing is preventing anybody from moving up.

There is some of that, but there's also a lot of simply being in the right place at the right time. Since I was a kid I was expected and encouraged to be something, always told I'd go to university, had it paid for me, etc. It was almost impossible to fail. Certainly I harbor no illusions that I'm smarter or work harder than some farmer busting his chops in India for 12 hours/day.

 

[Darwin333]

BULLSHIT.

Planning and networking are very important if one wants a successful career, however to deny luck plays a large hand in things is naive and narcissistic.

Preparation, hard work, and networking are how one takes advantage of the opportunities presented and can help to create opportunities but one has no control over when a company decides to hire, when someone quits and creates a job opening, etc.

My short career has been very successful but I'm also humble enough to acknowledge that had I been dealt a slightly different hand over the years, things would be much different.

Assuming you are right, exactly how do you propose to make "luck" equal?

 

[Zebo]

There is some of that, but there's also a lot of simply being in the right place at the right time. Since I was a kid I was expected and encouraged to be something, always told I'd go to university, had it paid for me, etc. It was almost impossible to fail. Certainly I harbor no illusions that I'm smarter or work harder than some farmer busting his chops in India for 12 hours/day.

We made our luck. From toil of middle ages, to enlightenment thinkers, to people today making choices. Not an accident. Problem is many are willing to throw it all away (poor classical education) for neo liberalism like India like us in the past.

 

[TheAdvocate]

LOL, another inane and meaningless point from Moonbeam.

Actually it isn't at all. I understand exactly what he means. I am a professional making very good money and acquiring lots of material things, but I find myself questioning it everyday. All I do is work so that I can by the next shiny bauble. I don't feel like I'm living at all, just consuming.

I'm not saying that I should knee jerk in the other direction, but there is such a thing as balance.

 

[jackace]

Not sure why we are arguing so much about anecdote evidence. The overall picture shows us something is wrong. Just because a handful of people made it doesn't mean everyone has the same opportunities. The numbers and statistics are proof enough. When in comes to income inequality the US is more in-line with Zimbabwe and Russia than Japan, UK, or Germany

 

[spidey07]

Not sure why we are arguing so much about anecdote evidence. The overall picture shows us something is wrong. Just because a handful of people made it doesn't mean everyone has the same opportunities. The numbers and statistics are proof enough. When in comes to income inequality the US is more in-line with Zimbabwe and Russia than Japan, UK, or Germany

That so many have made it big is a testament to America and what makes us great. Look at all the people that immigrated here and became rich based on an idea, a desire and maybe a recipe.

Income inequality is GOOD. It removes the artificial barriers imposed by those nations. You want to succeed? Come to America where the possibilities are limitless and all it takes is you to make it big.

We don't want income equality, that is purely un-American. What makes us so outstanding is the limitless possibilities. So I say this with the utmost sincerity - America, Fuck Yeah.

 

[HendrixFan]

Because the poor choices that their parents make are handed down to teach the children these same poor choices and it repeats. That and being successful gets you labeled an uncle tom by your peers and family.

So there is something in our society that prevents people from moving up? You have pretty much stated that being born in the lowest class dooms you. Would you say that in every single case of someone sticking in the lowest income class it is because of laziness? I find that hard to believe. In that type of environment, even those that try to escape (work hard) are unlikely to. I witnessed firsthand growing up that there were people who had potential that couldn't make it out. I also witnessed firsthand at the University level that many of them got there because of family money.

 

[jackace]

That so many have made it big is a testament to America and what makes us great. Look at all the people that immigrated here and became rich based on an idea, a desire and maybe a recipe.

Income inequality is GOOD. It removes the artificial barriers imposed by those nations. You want to succeed? Come to America where the possibilities are limitless and all it takes is you to make it big.

We don't want income equality, that is purely un-American. What makes us so outstanding is the limitless possibilities. So I say this with the utmost sincerity - America, Fuck Yeah.

And based on the statistics about 5% of the people actually reach that point. What do we do with the other 95% of the population?

 

[HendrixFan]

Income inequality is GOOD. It removes the artificial barriers imposed by those nations. You want to succeed? Come to America where the possibilities are limitless and all it takes is you to make it big.

We don't want income equality, that is purely un-American. What makes us so outstanding is the limitless possibilities. So I say this with the utmost sincerity - America, Fuck Yeah.

Anything in excess is bad. Anything.

Income inequality is good, as it provides incentives. Extreme income inequality, like we have here, provides a disincentive to work hard, as the fruits of the labor are out of reach for many people.

Income inequality is good in moderation, just like so many other things.

 

[Darwin333]

Because the poor choices that their parents make are handed down to teach the children these same poor choices and it repeats. That and being successful gets you labeled an uncle tom by your peers and family.

On the same note, good choices are also handed down. Each generation of my family did a bit better than the last. Thats because each generation started just a bit farther ahead than the last. Where you start isn't necessarily required to be successful in this country but it sure as hell helps.

 

[Dekasa]

My Band Director (who was very important to me) always said that talent doesn't make you the best, it's just a good head start.

Family money is the same way. Rich people have 'talent', they're not universally successful, but it's a good head start. If you're born poor, while you may objectively have the same opportunity, you don't have the head start that your wealthier-born neighbors did.

So we're the land of equal opportunity, but the poor have to start the race from the back.

 

[TheAdvocate]

My Band Director (who was very important to me) always said that talent doesn't make you the best, it's just a good head start.

Family money is the same way. Rich people have 'talent', they're not universally successful, but it's a good head start. If you're born poor, while you may objectively have the same opportunity, you don't have the head start that your wealthier-born neighbors did.

So we're the land of equal opportunity, but the poor have to start the race from the back.

I used to do pro bono work as an attorney, for many impoverished families. Your analogy works better if you say that they start at the back of the pack with a cast off car and an imbecillic/asshole/deadbeat crew chief and no sponsors.

And I can't believe I just willingly took part in a NASCAR analogy.

 

[CitizenKain]

Poor people can get free college education, job assistance, job training, job placement services, etc so that argument doesn't fly. The reason they remain poor is simply because succeeding in your work or career takes WORK and it is HARD.

NOTHING is preventing ANYBODY from becoming successful in life in America. Nothing, only themselves.

Its amazing how that "you can be anything, BOOTSTRAPS" idea catches on with people. What makes you think that its even remotely possible for so many people to reach down and pull themselves up. Its not because they are lazy, its because they can't. If you are born into a poor family, you won't get the nutrition you'll need to develop properly, you won't get the schooling you'll need to help learn skills and better yourself. So you start fucked, and pretty much any attempt to better yourself will be met with failure. If you are hurt or get sick, you are completely fucked, as now your credit is ruined, and if you had insurance, you'll get dropped in a heartbeat.

What use is a free college education if you have to work two jobs? You'll never have time for class. Job assistance is fucking laughable with how bad our economy is right now. Same with job training. All that shit is just made up by people who coasted their way through life, and seem to think that if they can do it, its the same for others. So really, hearing some spoiled person like yourself talk about how hardwork is all that is needed is hilarious. Especially from someone who posts on a internet message board as much as you do.

 

[Craig234]

Because the poor choices that their parents make are handed down to teach the children these same poor choices and it repeats. That and being successful gets you labeled an uncle tom by your peers and family.

Funny how you recognize the generational effects of something, but when it comes to the generational effects of racism and segregation not their fault, you're clueless.

 

[Bowfinger]

Its amazing how that "you can be anything, BOOTSTRAPS" idea catches on with people. What makes you think that its even remotely possible for so many people to reach down and pull themselves up. Its not because they are lazy, its because they can't. If you are born into a poor family, you won't get the nutrition you'll need to develop properly, you won't get the schooling you'll need to help learn skills and better yourself. So you start fucked, and pretty much any attempt to better yourself will be met with failure. If you are hurt or get sick, you are completely fucked, as now your credit is ruined, and if you had insurance, you'll get dropped in a heartbeat.

What use is a free college education if you have to work two jobs? You'll never have time for class. Job assistance is fucking laughable with how bad our economy is right now. Same with job training. All that shit is just made up by people who coasted their way through life, and seem to think that if they can do it, its the same for others. So really, hearing some spoiled person like yourself talk about how hardwork is all that is needed is hilarious. Especially from someone who posts on a internet message board as much as you do.

Well said! My thoughts exactly. Only a naive school child or someone who's been given a lucky berth in American life truly believes we have equal opportunities for all. America offers tremendous opportunity, no question about it, but some have far, far better and easier opportunities than others.

 

[jackace]

Its amazing how that "you can be anything, BOOTSTRAPS" idea catches on with people. What makes you think that its even remotely possible for so many people to reach down and pull themselves up. Its not because they are lazy, its because they can't. If you are born into a poor family, you won't get the nutrition you'll need to develop properly, you won't get the schooling you'll need to help learn skills and better yourself. So you start fucked, and pretty much any attempt to better yourself will be met with failure. If you are hurt or get sick, you are completely fucked, as now your credit is ruined, and if you had insurance, you'll get dropped in a heartbeat.

What use is a free college education if you have to work two jobs? You'll never have time for class. Job assistance is fucking laughable with how bad our economy is right now. Same with job training. All that shit is just made up by people who coasted their way through life, and seem to think that if they can do it, its the same for others. So really, hearing some spoiled person like yourself talk about how hardwork is all that is needed is hilarious. Especially from someone who posts on a internet message board as much as you do.

It's more than just starting off behind, but it does play a big role in the problem for many people. There just isn't enough room at the top for everyone. Someone has to be in the middle and at the bottom. Saying everyone can be at the top is ignorant at best.

 

[Zebo]

Its amazing how that "you can be anything, BOOTSTRAPS" idea catches on with people. What makes you think that its even remotely possible for so many people to reach down and pull themselves up. Its not because they are lazy, its because they can't. If you are born into a poor family, you won't get the nutrition you'll need to develop properly, you won't get the schooling you'll need to help learn skills and better yourself. So you start fucked, and pretty much any attempt to better yourself will be met with failure. If you are hurt or get sick, you are completely fucked, as now your credit is ruined, and if you had insurance, you'll get dropped in a heartbeat.

What use is a free college education if you have to work two jobs? You'll never have time for class. Job assistance is fucking laughable with how bad our economy is right now. Same with job training. All that shit is just made up by people who coasted their way through life, and seem to think that if they can do it, its the same for others. So really, hearing some spoiled person like yourself talk about how hardwork is all that is needed is hilarious. Especially from someone who posts on a internet message board as much as you do.

That aint no problem for Bush. He ran multiple businesses in the ground and the thick loans kept on commin' what's some medical bills?

BTW good post.

 

[ProfJohn]

Wealth distribution is a meaningless figure because it ignores the size of the wealth being distributed.

Sure our wealth distribution may be out of whack when compared to Japan, Italy, Australia, Canada, Norway, Great Britain and yet the average person living in the American middle class has a better life style and standard of living than people living in those countries.

Look at our per capita GDP (PPP) and notice that we are crushing everyone on the list, except Norway has a smaller population than nine American cities.

This part is very disturbing. Yes, the average middle-class family went up but how many more families sent the mother into the work place in 2007 compared to 1979?

How many Americans families in 1979 had two cars, TVs in every room and living in 3000 sq ft homes?

Many American moms work not because they have too, but because they want the bigger house and extra car and the trip to DisneyWorld every year etc.

 

[sandorski]

Wealth distribution is a meaningless figure because it ignores the size of the wealth being distributed.

Sure our wealth distribution may be out of whack when compared to Japan, Italy, Australia, Canada, Norway, Great Britain and yet the average person living in the American middle class has a better life style and standard of living than people living in those countries.

Look at our per capita GDP (PPP) and notice that we are crushing everyone on the list, except Norway has a smaller population than nine American cities.


How many Americans families in 1979 had two cars, TVs in every room and living in 3000 sq ft homes?

Many American moms work not because they have too, but because they want the bigger house and extra car and the trip to DisneyWorld every year etc.

"Crushing", really?

 

[jackace]

Wealth distribution is a meaningless figure because it ignores the size of the wealth being distributed.

Sure our wealth distribution may be out of whack when compared to Japan, Italy, Australia, Canada, Norway, Great Britain and yet the average person living in the American middle class has a better life style and standard of living than people living in those countries.

Look at our per capita GDP (PPP) and notice that we are crushing everyone on the list, except Norway has a smaller population than nine American cities.


How many Americans families in 1979 had two cars, TVs in every room and living in 3000 sq ft homes?

Many American moms work not because they have too, but because they want the bigger house and extra car and the trip to DisneyWorld every year etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akVL7QY0S8A

The lady in this video has done the research and shows the middle class is not doing as well as you state.

 

[ProfJohn]

Yes really.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita
Per capita GDP (PPP)

6. US $46,381
10 Australia $38,911

So our per capita GDP is 20% higher than the next country on that list.

How about average full time wage (PPP)??
The US ranks second in the world at $49,486 (2007 figure)
The next country on that list is Norway at $40,177
Again we are talking about a 20% difference. That is HUGE. Think about how long it will take the typical person to increase their income by 20%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wages

Sure there is an income distribution problem in this country and the 'rich' own too much of the country, but let's not forget the fact that the amount of wealth in this country is staggering compared other countries around the world.

 

[jackace]

Yes really.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita
Per capita GDP (PPP)

6. US $46,381
10 Australia $38,911

So our per capita GDP is 20% higher than the next country on that list.

How about average full time wage (PPP)??
The US ranks second in the world at $49,486 (2007 figure)
The next country on that list is Norway at $40,177
Again we are talking about a 20% difference. That is HUGE. Think about how long it will take the typical person to increase their income by 20%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wages

Sure there is an income distribution problem in this country and the 'rich' own too much of the country, but let's not forget the fact that the amount of wealth in this country is staggering compared other countries around the world.

I didn't look into how exactly all those numbers are calculated, but if they are averages then that explains everything.

 

[HendrixFan]

Yes really.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita
Per capita GDP (PPP)

6. US $46,381
10 Australia $38,911

So our per capita GDP is 20% higher than the next country on that list.

How about average full time wage (PPP)??
The US ranks second in the world at $49,486 (2007 figure)
The next country on that list is Norway at $40,177
Again we are talking about a 20% difference. That is HUGE. Think about how long it will take the typical person to increase their income by 20%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wages

Sure there is an income distribution problem in this country and the 'rich' own too much of the country, but let's not forget the fact that the amount of wealth in this country is staggering compared other countries around the world.

Average does not equal median.

Health Care is one of the largest expenses for households, but other countries you compare the US to have "free" universal healthcare. Are you properly adjusting for that?